Talk:List of universities in the Netherlands

Excesssive detail that was copied from the vocational universities template
The Dutch Ministry of Education, Culture and Science, on its English website, translates hogescholen with "higher professional education institutions." See page 61 of : "Dutch higher education comprises higher professional education (HBO) and university education (WO). These types of education are provided by HBO institutions (hogescholen) and universities respectively."

Note that this is not my text, but some of it may come useful when expanding the text of this article. It does not replace the recognition of the Dutch government of the common English-language terminology as applied to Dutch vocational universities, but only explains local terminology. gidonb (talk) 23:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Intercultural Open University
The following entry was removed:


 * colspan="2"|Intercultural Open University||1982||Opeinde||Private||Foundation for social change|| ||

I will recover this entry. Here is a press article about it: http://www.skepsis.nl/iou.html

There it is written that IOU would be accredited by Accrediting Council for Colleges and Universities and by the International Association for Distance Learning, the first being an organization which could no longer be reached, due to not being able to pay its own bills.

The article says that IOU sells PhD degrees in India for a price of Euro 250.00 (Rupees 9000.00). It has many partners and collaborators who also sell degrees obtained by education at distance. Therefore, I think there is enough ground to recover the entry, since it is clear that it is a diploma mill situated in the Netherlands. Tgeorgescu (talk) 16:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:Stretch call
Dear User:Stretch call, although that it may be your university, it is not your encyclopedia. Stop vandalizing the articles or you'll get banned from Wikipedia. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I was asked by Tgeorgescu to comment about Intercultural Open University . Judging by the article on it, and the English translation of the article cited about them  |en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8, it their nature is rather questionable, but they are based in the Netherlands. The question of whether they have a substantial enough presence here is to be decided by discussing, not edit-warring.  DGG ( talk ) 22:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the whole section on "non-accredited universities" is problematic. I could start a university in my backyard today, which would not be accredited. So I think it is a good idea to set out some ideas when to include a non-accredited university in this list.
 * In my view we should have at least one reliable source for each such entry.
 * Additionally, the reliable source should either include
 * A statement that this is indeed an institute for higher learning (or another source claiming so should be provided)
 * Additionally there should be evidence of students being actually registered, being lectured and getting degrees from that university (or another source claiming so should be provided).
 * If those three criteria are met, I think we should not object addition of the institute. (PS obviously all accredited universities meet this, as these are condition for accreditation)
 * Anybody objects, has a different view, or other ideas? Please add here. Arnoutf (talk) 11:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The sources for Intercultural Open University are:


 * Degree Mills: non-accredited and irregular higher education institutions by Luca Lantero, Italian ENIC/NARIC center.
 * De Universiteit van Opeinde by Rob Nanninga, Foundation Skepsis in Skepter, year 20, no. 1, 2007.
 * The Diploma Mafias - with a list of diploma factories worldwide Newsabah.
 * These sources say it is an unrecognized university operating from the Netherlands (and USA). So, while Via Vinci University and the other unrecognized Dutch universities are listed in the article, I don't see why the Intercultural Open University should not be listed herein. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is an extra source:


 * Nepprofessoren doceren wetenschap ’in het verdomhoekje’ Trouw, January 24, 2008. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I put it back in the non accredited list, and changed the footnote to be correct. Arnoutf (talk) 14:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Intercultural Open University Foundation
Intercultural Open University Foundation operates as a charitable educational foundation. IOU Foundation is staffed by five adminstrative staff members and a faculty of fifteen members who serve as mentors to adult graduate learners seeking advanced degrees. It is not a "degree mill" hiding in the Netherlands as stated by user Tgeorgescu. It is registered with the Dutch Chamber of Commerce as an educational foundation. In addition it is registered as a non-profit foundtion in the United States. Headquarters are maintained both in the Netherlands and the USA. It belongs to the leading E-Learning Educational groups in Europe that include EDEN (European Distance and E-Learning Network), EFQUEL (European Foundation for Quality in E-Learning, HEXTLEARN(an E-Learning Network associated with EDEN). The foundation is a full member of all these groups along with the OBHE (Observatory of Borderless Higher Education in the UK). References for all of this is available on the web. With the exception of three foundation doctorates on the faculty the remainder have accredited doctorates from European and American universities. The foundation is not validated nor approved by the Dutch Ministry. There is no doubt that it is not a conventional educational institution, but it is a legitimate adult based distance learning foundation. To let the Skeptic magazine article (2007), a PDF file from CIMEA with a dead reference link, and Dutch newspaper article to create a link to Jesus to define this foundation would move in my mind as one of the editors of the article beyond the Wikipedia policy of an article being neutral and verifiable.Stretch call (talk) 00:51, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It may not be completely neutral, but it is verifiable. With the lack of other secondary sources this is just what we have to work from.
 * BTW your acknowledgement that it is not a normal educational foundation implies it should be removed from this list of "normal" universities. Arnoutf (talk) 10:24, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Where would you suggest a graduate educational foundation such as the IOU Foundation be placed? Stretch call (talk) 11:04, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * With some authority that actually acknowledges its degrees, i.e. with an authority that actually agrees it is allowed to give out educational degrees. Arnoutf (talk) 23:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought you were going to suggest a place on the Dutch Universities list on Wikipedia for the IOU Foundation? Sorry, that was my misunderstanding. To try to address your question, it is my understanding that an educational foundation such as this foundation has the legal right to offer graduate degrees based on the by-laws that foundations file with countries and departments of education that define exactly the type of business (in this case adult based distance graduate education) they plan to conduct. I would think that with this foundation their registrations in the Netherlands and the United States would give them the legal authority to offer graduate degrees. Without registrations, foundations and colleges/ universities would never be able to establish themselves. It has been my experience in education that many institutions of higher education have started in this manner and for various reasons have remained so with their legal registrations in countries where they hold and maintain these registrations.Stretch call (talk) 00:18, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand the Dutch situation.
 * 1) Every institute can register as an educational institution, offering some kind of certificate of completion of the course.
 * 2) The titles BSc, MSc and PhD can only be given by accredited institutions. Non-accredited institution are not allowed to give such titles, and the use by graduates of BSc MSc and PhD titles obtained from non-accredited institutions is not allowed.
 * Most institutions for adult or distance learning in the Netherlands are accredited (e.g. Open University, or Leidse Onderwijsinstelling). I am not sure where this leaves groups like IOU. Arnoutf (talk) 08:41, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

First thanks for the open dialog about this listing issue. I agree with you in your rendering of the Dutch law. The problem with this foundation is the non-conventional nature and the fact that it is not only legally registered in the Netherlands but also in the United States (corp.delaware.gov/ file #4750897). The foundation operates as a educational foundation without borders. In a web search I found quite a few graduates with faculty appointments in major universities in the USA. From my experience with USA education I know that a registered educational institution with stated by-laws is legally allowed to issue degrees. My thinking is to not list the foundation on the list or make a seperate listing that has been done with some other institutions explaining the different nature of this foundation while indicating the foundation is not approved by the Dutch Ministry. In this manner I think we would be neutral to the lack of validation and at the same time protect the graduates that can use their degree titles in countries where the degrees would be acceptable. I would be interested in your thoughts.Stretch call (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Problem being is that without accreditation while operating from the Netherlands it would still classify as a degree mill. Reliable sources to prove otherwise have yet to be provided. Arnoutf (talk) 17:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The situation is discussed in the Via Vinci University article: there's a hole in Dutch education law, therefore any organization can claim it is an university, and the Bachelor/Master degrees are not protected, so they can be granted at wish. Secretary Marja van Bijsterveldt wants to close this hole in the law. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You are actually right, the titles universiteit, drs, ir, mr and dr. (Dutch equivalents university of MSc and PhD) are protected but not the English terms, by the way, neither are the Chinese or Russian titles or any other language for these degrees. The problem is that we have changed our protected degrees into unprotected English equivalents after Lisbon and now our laws are lagging behind; when will politicians think before they do....... In any case someone with a PhD from an unaccredited Dutch university is allowed to use the PhD label (as long as the loophole lasts) but not the doctor title, as that has long been proteced under Dutch law......
 * Gee the Dutch desire to be international first and get things sorted later again.... Arnoutf (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A Quandry
IOU Foundation does present a difficulty in classification. It is registered as a charitable educational foundation in The Netherlands but has no faulty,students or charitable donations from The Netherlands. Those individuals using its educational programs are all outside The Netherlands. It is a global institution with a Netherlands address. It probably deserves to appear in a separate category from other educational institutions.Puntero1 (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Under the header "Dutch based degree mills" perhaps? Arnoutf (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

That is a very serious label and one that I would think would be dangerous to label as such. This foundation is not a degree mill. All one has to do is look at the website http://www.ioufoundation.org and see that the President, the Board of Governors, and faculty are represented by credentialed people who I do not think would put their credentials into a degree mill. This foundation has been in business since 1980 when it was registered in the Netherlands. When the founder and President died in 2008 the foundation was re-organized and became a member of EDEN (www.eden-online.org/eden.php?menuld=205) EFQUEL (www.qualityfoundation.org/index.php?option...open), OBHE, and Hextlearn. In addition it obtained a registration as a non-profit foundation in the USA. Just a web search shows active involvement of the President(www.qualityfoundation.org/index.php?option...id) and faculty(www.200minfo.com/people/Yoshikawa_Muneo_551296088.aspx) in workshops, seminars, keynote presentations, adult learning sites, nings, etc. These activities are not characteristic of a degree mill, and certainly the leaders of European Universities would not of invited a degree mill faculty member and Board of Governors member to be a keynote speaker(www.qualityfoundation.org/index.php?...134%3Amuneo) at the 2009 EFQUEL conference in Finland. These professional E-Learning associations do not allow or support degree mills for membership and certainly would not support the credentials of the foundation's faculty if they thought otherwise.Stretch call (talk) 01:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

KNAW
The following text, which has been part of the article for more than a year without anyone commenting on it was recently removed by the new anon User:89.100.58.51 with the edit summary "if it's not a university it doesn't belong in a list of universities"

Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
Although not a university, the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences has many links with Dutch universities; its mission is to be the forum, conscience and representative of Dutch science.

While strictly speaking and acknowledged by the statement itself the KNAW is not a university, it provides important context for the Dutch academic society... i.e. the universities. Many lists in Wikipedia have things that are strictly speaking not part of the topic of the list, and is included to provide context. For example the List of sovereign states includes non recognised states, the List of countries by GDP (nominal) contains the worlds and the EU to provide context. In my view this is sufficient argument to include brief mention to KNAW in this article. If nobody objects, I'll put it back in a few days. Arnoutf (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Seeing the history of reversions, this seemed appropriate for the Education in the Netherlands article, so I added it there. That may be a better location to set context. Personally I think deleting valid content is a bad idea, its better to preserve it, somewhere.  Dhollm (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

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