Talk:List of unsuccessful major party candidates for President of the United States

Untitled
I can't figure out how to get rid of the half category after the See also entry. deisenbe (talk) 16:14, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Theodore Roosevelt in 1912
Shouldn't Theodore Roosevelt be considered an unsuccessful major-party presidential candidate in 1912? While the Progressive (Bull Moose) Party was newly formed for the election, and was disbanded a few years afterwards, Roosevelt was Wilson's main rival in most states, finishing second in the national popular vote with 27.4% (he carried six states and finished second in 22 others) and second in the Electoral College with 88 electoral votes (80 more than the Republican nominee, President Taft). AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Roosevelt himself finished in second, but the Progressive Party is universally considered to have been a third party. You mentioned the transitory nature of the party, but also note that the Democrats and Republicans won the vast majority of congressional and gubernatorial elections held in 1912. Orser67 (talk) 21:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * In 1856, Millard Fillmore was the nominee of the new American (Know-Nothing) Party and what little remained of the Whig Party, but I believe that he was listed as a Whig on the ballot only in North Carolina (at least according to Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections); in the national popular vote, Fillmore finished 23.75% out of first place and 11.55% out of second place, and carried only Maryland (good for only 8 electoral votes). In the 1856 congressional elections, the Whigs and Know-Nothings combined to win only 1 Senate seat and 14 House seats (all by the Know-Nothings); the Whigs were wiped out as a party after the 1856 elections, and the Know-Nothings didn't make it to the 1860 presidential elections.  If Millard Fillmore was a "major-party" candidate in 1856, then I don't see how such title can be denied to Roosevelt in 1912, given that Roosevelt was far more successful a candidate, and the Progressive Party did about as well in congressional races as did the 1856 Whigs and Know-Nothings (particularly when one considers Republican/Progressive fusion candidates).
 * Moreover, Roosevelt wasn't just the Progressive Party presidential nominee, he also was the Republican Party presidential nominee (in two states). You listed John Breckenridge as a major-party candidate in 1860 despite not being the nominee of the national Democratic Party (and "Southern Democrats" not being an official party) and Hugh White in 1836 despite not being the Whig presidential nominee in 17 out of 26 states (and only carrying two states).  Roosevelt was the presidential nominee of the Republican Party South Dakota and (as a fusion Republican/Progressive nominee) California, both of which he carried in the election.
 * Theodore Roosevelt came far closer to winning the 1912 presidential election than did Fillmore in 1856, Breckenridge in 1860 or White in 1836 (heck, White wasn't even a candidate in enough states to win a majority of electoral votes). If Fillmore, Breckenridge and White are deemed to be major-party candidates, then, a fortiori, so should Roosevelt in 1912.  Excluding Roosevelt, and presenting Taft (with his 23% of the popular vote and 8 electoral votes) as the sole unsuccessful major-party candidate of 1912, represents an incomplete and misleading picture of the 1912 election.  I believe that Roosevelt should be added to the article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * All of the candidates that are listed in the table are there because reliable sources describe them as major party nominees. If you want to include Roosevelt in the list, then please find a reliable source that describe TR as a major party nominee, or a reliable source that describes the Progressive Party of 1912 as a major party. Fillmore is included because James McPherson's book, Battle Cry of Freedom, clearly explains that neither the Republican Party nor the Know Nothing Party was the clear second major party in 1856. White is included because another reliable, academic source describes him as the main candidate of the Whigs in the South. And Breckinridge and Douglas are included because another reliable, academic source indicates that the Democrats split in 1860 and nominated two different candidates.

To further bolster the argument that Roosevelt was a third party candidate, here are several sources that describe him as one:
 * http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29617
 * https://www.britannica.com/place/United-States/Theodore-Roosevelt-and-the-Progressive-movement#ref612998
 * https://www.history.com/news/remembering-the-1912-presidential-election
 * https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/03/04/when-republicans-went-to-war
 * https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/opinion/avlon-teddy-roosevelt-100-years/index.html
 * https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/06/bull-moose-convention-nominates-theodore-roosevelt-aug-7-1912-241335
 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/27770100.pdf?refreqid=search%3A396368dfac3eb9f1ff7e1895fe56d375
 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/23515317.pdf?refreqid=search%3A396368dfac3eb9f1ff7e1895fe56d375
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=iGQXAQAAIAAJ&q=third+party+roosevelt+1912&dq=third+party+roosevelt+1912&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9reXC-8XdAhXRc98KHaD3ANYQ6AEILzAB
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=fNZSDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=third+party+roosevelt+1912&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9reXC-8XdAhXRc98KHaD3ANYQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=third%20party&f=false

Orser67 (talk) 01:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * After some googling and time on Jstor, I decided to remove Fillmore. I'm open to discussing some of the other edge cases, but I'm 100% opposed to the inclusion of Roosevelt, who was clearly a third party candidate. Orser67 (talk) 07:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

You are correct that Theodore Roosevelt's 1912 presidential run almost always is referred to as a third-party candidate. While I think that this is mostly due to the fact that it is difficult for people to fathom that, in a particular election, a new party has taken over a longstanding party's position as the major opposition to the other major party (unless the party goes on to win the next election, like the Republicans did--had the Know-Nothings stuck around and the Republicans gone kaput, everyone would talk about Frémont's historic "third-party run"), I certainly won't be able to find reliable sources that outweigh the reliable sources that you listed. So I will desist from calling for Theodore Roosevelt's inclusion in the article as a separate entry, and I thank you for your acknowledgment of his 1912 candidacy in a footnote to William Howard Taft.

Perhaps the name of the article should be changed to "List of unsuccessful major candidates for President of the United States" (deleting the word "party"), which would permit us to list Bell in 1860, Roosevelt in 1912, LaFollete in 1924, Thurmond in 1948, Wallace in 1968, and some other serious challengers for the presidency. I think that a person that wants to learn about people who ran for president and fell short would be short-changed if they weren't told about candidates that were competitive in numerous states and even carried some states. But unless and until such name change is made, the candidates listed should remain the same. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 22:01, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Glad we could come to an agreement about the candidate list given the article's current title, at least. I actually wanted to work on this article mostly to fill the gap between List of third party performances in United States presidential elections and List of Presidents of the United States. Orser67 (talk) 00:10, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

New images
Hey User:Walk Like an Egyptian, I noticed you changed the images and the resolution size. I'm ok with both of those things, but I'd strongly prefer it if all of the images were 3x4 so that the column heights are all the same. Orser67 (talk) 06:06, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * (Responding to your edit summary comment): User:Walk Like an Egyptian, when making the files 3x4, would you object if I overwrote the files you made for this page (e.g. File:Unsuccessful 1800.jpg)? Orser67 (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I think this looks great now. --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok cool, thanks for contributing to this article. Orser67 (talk) 03:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Text at beginning
I'm the one who created this list, in modest form. I think it would be useful if these summary words I had at the beginning, or some version of the information, were included. They need revision because I only dealt with 1860 onwards.

All candidates of minor parties alone have been unsuccessful. In some cases, minor parties have nominated the same candidate as a major party did, such as the Working Families Party, which nominated Barack Obama in 2008.

As seen below, two incumbent Democratic presidents (Cleveland, Carter) were defeated, and five incumbent Republicans were defeated (Harrison, Taft, Hoover, Ford, George H. W. Bush).

Only one candidate ran unsuccessfully three times (Bryan); two ran twice (Dewey, Stevenson). deisenbe (talk) 14:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I added: "Several former, incumbent, or future presidents have unsuccessfully sought the presidency" and "Several individuals have unsuccessfully sought the presidency as the candidate of a major party multiple times; only Henry Clay and William Jennings Bryan have done so thrice." The part about all minor party candidates being unsuccessful is already covered. Orser67 (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

On what basis is Breckinridge excluded? He carried 11 states in 1860. deisenbe (talk) 21:30, 21 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, he's in the "List of unsuccessful major third party and independent candidates" section. I included a note indicating why Breckindridge is in that section that states: "Many sources include Breckinridge as a third party candidate, but other sources do not." Orser67 (talk) 22:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

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