Talk:List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre

Untitled
This article is essential. See relevant discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Babi_Yar&action=edit&section=24) at the main article at Babi Yar. It is NOT a memorial of any sort. Any attempt to delete it will be considered anti-semitic and anti-Ukrainian vandalism.Galassi (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, how is this not a memorial? It is simply a list of victims from the massacre, with detailed histories.  The lists should be more like List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre and List of victims of Nazism, with single lines on the individuals.  The histories of each person belongs with the specific articles.  I think it would be more productive to create article on the notable individuals and if there is a large number created, then create a page just listing the victims.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Galassi, you are going to have to help me figure out exactly what's going on. I'm a little confused on the names, but you should be able to take care of it.  Right now, I sort of follow the Virginia Tech massacre style, but the Nazism one might be a better organization (by occupation with nationality as a field).  I'll leave it to people who probably better understand the significance of this than me, but good luck with it. -- Ricky81682 (talk)


 * Also, everyone should see Lists for all the policy behind lists. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And let's not throw the term vandalism about, especially erroneously. Proposing an article be deleted or nominating it for AfD is not vandalism.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 20:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * My problem is that I cannot help but suspect ill will, considering the level of sensitivity in the matter in question.Galassi (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if you do suspect ill will, keep it to yourself. Any indication of it can be considered uncivil and not assuming good faith.  Galassi, you've had plenty of warnings about it at this point; I would highly suggest a change in tone and attitude immediately.  I also notice that the article is doing exact what I didn't want to happen, namely it is becoming another way to insert full text about victims (i.e., a memorial) and more like a fork of Babi Yar.  If this survives AFD, it needs to stay a strict list, and nothing more.  If you guys want to make this into a fork, don't be surprised to see it deleted and told to merge back into the article.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Prod removal
I removed the prod, because the last article was removed for violating WP:NOT (a memorial), which is not a speedy deletion criterion anyway. If someone still wants to delete it, then can bring it up for AFD. Per above, there are some lists of the victims articles out there, so there is some precedent. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, as the proposer. I'm not going to nominate it for AfD though. Seriously, WP:NOT per memorial is fighting an uphill battle. If other users feel strongly about it. Be my guest.  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 20:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Listed it at Afd. There is no real possibility of listing victims of the September massacre at the level of prominence establish here: it would go on for pages and pages. This is a POV fork, trying to establish greater Ukrainian "victimhood" at that site, made up of a list of redlinks and a poetess whose notability derives primarily from her murder here. Jd2718 (talk) 21:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * All victims do not have to be listed. But all notable one should be. It will be difficult to reference an anglophone source, but there are plenty of russophone ones. Galassi (talk) 21:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Galassi, you should comment at Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre. I know the discussion keep moving around but that should the last stand, either way. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no move While there is some support for a possible move, there is no consensus to support the proposed name suggested. JPG-GR (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move from List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre to List of Ukrainian nationalist executed at Babi Yar.

The contents of this article is a list: not of those killed in the Babi Yar massacre, but of members of a Ukrainian nationalist organization who were executed at the same site, but at a later date. Neither the name nor the categories are reflective of the actual article contents. There are three options: I've proposed the rename (move) as the best option. Jd2718 (talk) 13:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) leave it alone;
 * 2) expand the list to include those killed in the massacre per se; or
 * 3) rename the article to reflect the current contents.


 * support as proposer Jd2718 (talk) 02:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. That would be like dividing Golgotha into a Jewish and a Samaritan sections, a la Monty Python.Galassi (talk) 02:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - more than one person was killed, and the plural of "nationalist" is "nationalists", not "nationalist", where it is proposed the article be moved. Biruitorul Talk 04:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Typo corrected to "nationalists" Jd2718 (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. However, I still respectfully oppose because nothing prevents us from adding Jewish names to the list. Biruitorul Talk 14:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * None of the current names on the list were victims of the massacre. Not an issue? Jd2718 (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * They were. There were several subsets of massacres.Galassi (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Opposed. Many people died. Noit veryone was a nationalist, and tt the dates continue throughouhe German occupation. Babi Yar is not just a Jewish tragedy. Bandurist (talk) 14:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose. If the list contents are inaccurate, fix them. And the proposed title doesn't even sound encyclopedic to me. Andrewa (talk) 22:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No one on the list was killed in the Babi Yar massacre (they were executed at the same site five months later). Are you proposing their names be deleted? Jd2718 (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I'm simply pointing out that the proposed course of action is illogical. As to what the best remedy is, or even whether any is needed, that's another matter, as indicated by the connective if above. Andrewa (talk) 17:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Support a move away from the current title in general. List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre strongly implies the list includes victims of the 29–30 September massacre and not later massacres as is apparently the case here.  The title also implies a general list of victims and not only one category of victims.  As the article currently stands it should be moved or, since most of the list appear to be non-notable persons, it should be merged with Babi Yar.  If a more complete list is created, maybe List of Babi Yar victims would cover it better. —   AjaxSmack   02:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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