Talk:List of works by Charles Holden

Cemeteries

 * ✅ - List is complete thanks to DavidCane - addressing further points in new section. Carcharoth (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I've gone through the list here, and of the ones listed here all can be sourced to the CWGC website records for their cemeteries, except for two: Grand Seraucourt British Cemetery and St Vaast Post Military Cemetery. The CWGC website records do not mention Holden as designer, so another source will have to be found for these (actually, I now see that refs are present from Geurst). In addition, there are only 46 here when there should be 67. I have found one of the missing ones here: AVESNES-LE-COMTE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION. Hopefully a full list is somewhere, otherwise this could be difficult. Carcharoth (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There are four more that can be added: Aubers Ridge (Geurst, 384), Louvencourt (Geurst, 49), Forceville (Geurst, 49), Post Office Rifles (CWGC site), Gouy-en-Artois Communal Cemetery Extension (CWGC site). Quite why some of the CWGC ones are not showing up on searches, I don't know. There is also a reference to a list in the CWGC archives, and some of the books I have list the cemeteries and designers but the indexes don't list all occurrences of Holden. Carcharoth (talk) 21:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

One of the CWGC pdfs, the one here, mentions a list of all the cemeteries Holden worked on. It would seem sensible to leave this article until that list is published or someone else publishes a list of the cemeteries attributed to Holden. It seems such a list is not currently available. Carcharoth (talk) 23:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC) OK, I spoke too soon, it seems that such a list does exist! In the book by Karol

Number of cemeteries
The number is now 69 cemeteries, not the 67 reported (unnamed) in the table in Skelton and Gliddon. I suspect it is the Forceville and Louvencourt cemeteries that are not included in the 67, but what is really needed is to know whether all these are on the list from Karol or not, and if not which ones are not on Karol's list. Carcharoth (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They are all on Karol's lists. He breaks it into three lists: 18 in Belgium as Principal, 49 in France as Principal = 67, plus Forceville and Louvencourt under Blomfield. --DavidCane (talk) 01:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Cemetery design attribution and dates
It would seem simplest to list Principal Architect (PA) and Architect in France (AIF) for each cemetery where known. I'm also wondering if the dates are known for when the designs were worked on and completed? Carcharoth (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Karol's lists give dates for only some of the cemeteries. Cowlishaw was the main assistant architect and worked on all but the following:
 * Captain W. C. von Berg
 * Buttes
 * Dadizeele
 * Lindenhoek
 * London Rifles
 * Messines Ridge
 * Passchendaele
 * Poelcapelle
 * Polygon Wood
 * Awoingt
 * Brown's Road
 * Cambrai
 * Cambrin (both)
 * Gorre
 * Honnechy
 * Naves
 * Post Office
 * Wilverghem-Lindenhoek
 * Major G. H. Goldsmith
 * Bienvillers
 * Marcoing
 * Major J. R. Truelove
 * Busigny
 * Premont
 * N. A. Rew
 * Chappelle
 * St Vaast
 * Savy
 * Trefcon
 * Rue de Berceaux
 * Captain J. S. Hutton
 * St Souplet


 * Thanks. It is good that this information has been researched and published by Karol - it would be nearly impossible to obtain otherwise. I presume J. S. Hutton is the same as the Arthur James Scott Hutton I've seen mentioned elsewhere, and presumably no relation to Charles Hutton? One final thing, if Karol has details of when the two memorials were completed or started (or any more details at all, such as cost or design, or others that worked on the designs) that would be something I'd be really interested in, as it was an interest in memorials that really got me interested in this whole subject (see here). From that list, as soon as you get into the 'minor' memorials, details about when the memorials were finished and whether any formal dedication or unveiling ceremony took place, are very sketchy or non-existent, so as I said, if Karol has any further details, that would be much appreciated. Carcharoth (talk) 04:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Karol (p.242) gives dates for Buttes of 1924–1929 and Messines of 1924–1928, which will be from start of design to completion. J. S. Hutton is, as far as I can tell, no relation to Charles Hutton.--DavidCane (talk) 10:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! If I may trouble you for a bit more detail, does Karol distinguish between memorial and cemetery? I'm hoping to be able to look some details up in a very reliable source in a few weeks, so don't worry if that is all the information there is, even that date range is very helpful. Carcharoth (talk) 00:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * He does not. Karol's book includes Holden's architectural drawings of Messines dated 1924 and 1925 and Buttes dated 1926 and says that theses were amongst the last cemeteries, but does not differentiate the memorials from the cemeteries. Practically, I would think that they were contemporaneous with the cemeteries.--DavidCane (talk) 19:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Cemetery grave numbers
The inclusion of number of graves and number of identified graves seems a bit arbitrary. As far as I can tell, the CWGC number on their website for 'identified casualties' refers both to CWGC graves and those graves of other nationalities in their care, and it also refers to both WWI and WWII casualties. So I think trying to work out what the numbers are here is fraught with difficulties. The real numbers needed, it seems to me, are either the current number of graves, or the numbers at the time Holden worked on the design. Neither seem to be that easy to work out. It might be simplest to just use one figure, the "identified casualties" given by the CWGC for each cemetery, and add a note that this number may vary slightly in the future (sometimes new graves are made as bodies are found), and may in some cases be larger than the number at the time Holden worked on the design, and leave it at that. This would give some idea of the size of the cemeteries (allowing them to be sorted by size) but would avoid any fiddly calculations that may end up being wrong. Carcharoth (talk) 17:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

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