Talk:Lists of stars by constellation

reconstruct
I've been trying to reconstruct the Arabic and Chinese phrases that gave rise to our star names. (I'm not bothering with the Sumerian for the time being, since only one or two of the names is in common use, and I don't know how to write cuneiform online.) Several of the sources mentioned in the article give a translation and a halfway accurate ASCII rendition of the original language. I've merely used my Arabic and various Chinese dictionaries to find a match. In some cases the original is obvious, in some I'm confident enough to put down my best guess (with a question mark), but in others I don't feel close enough to put anything down. Regardless, I'm not a native speaker of either language, and although I have good dictionaries, they're not perfect. If anyone finds an error or thinks they can do better, please give it a shot!

As for the Arabic transliteration, I used diacritics and Greek symbols to avoid digraphs, because Arabic contrasts e.g. sh and s.h. The one exception is gh, since Standard Arabic has no g. For the "emphatic" consonants, I used q and t, s, z, đ with a cedilla. The problem with using capitals is that people like to capitalize proper names, so you often don't know what the capital letter is supposed to mean. --kwami

Auriga
"Haedi" is plural and refers to Haedus I and II together, not to one star, so I took it out. (There are lots of names for groups of 2-3 stars which aren't listed in these charts.) I also took out "Hoedus", as this is just a modern misreading of Haedus in italics. Medieval almanac writers knew Latin and wouldn't have made this mistake, unlike the numerous misspellings of Arabic names which should be included. kwami

Draco
I believe that Dsiban is just the German spelling of Dziban, and both refer to Psi draconis. kwami

Perseus
Gamma Persei has no common name. Algenib is an old alternate name for Alpha Persei, but today is only applied to Gamma Pegasi. I removed the name and left just Gamma Persei. kwami

Aquila
What are the sources for four stars being called "Deneb el Okab" in Aquila? I've only seen zeta and epsilon with that name. Should the others be removed? kwami
 * Since no one's said anything, I'm going ahead and removing the two duplicates. kwami
 * I've got the star names from this source. It lists δ and ξ Aql as "Deneb Okab"s. --Jyril 08:19, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Canes Venatici
Where is Cor Caroli ever called Chara? Also, the name Asterion isn't associated with any particular star, and should probably be removed. kwami

Triangulum australe
Metallah is the name of Alpha trianguli, not Alpha trianguli australis, and should probably be removed. kwami


 * It is mentioned in one reference. Considering how many proper names have been misnamed, I think that should stay. In such cases there should be reference to the right star. For example,
 * Atria (or Metallah see Motallah) (α TrA).
 * --Jyril 12:38, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ara
The modern Chinese 'constellations' of Tseen Yin and Tso Kang are found in Aries, not Ara. I wonder if Ara's just a typo. This needs to be verified.

Chinese star names
Most of the Chinese names associated with particular stars are actually the names of constellations or asterisms (星座 xīngzuò). (Of course, such is sometimes the case for Arabic names as well.) Only few appear to have originally been individual stars. A list of the Chinese names of the Western constellations, with the much smaller traditional xīngzuò they contain is listed below. Please move this if you have a better place for it. kwami

And仙女Andromeda螣蛇、天、壁宿、奎宿、軍南門、天大將軍

Ant唧筒Antlia（唧筒）、在張宿南

Aps天燕Apus（異雀）、近南極

Aqr寶瓶Aquarius女宿、虛宿、天壘城、危宿、司命、蓋屋、墳墓、哭、泣、虛梁、壘壁陣、羽林軍、鈇鉞

Aql天鷹Aquila天弁、右旗、左旗、河鼓、天桴、離珠、天市左垣

Ara天壇Ara杵、龜

Ari白羊Aries婁宿、左更、胃宿、天陰

Aur御夫Auriga五車、柱、天潢、咸&#27744;、八穀、座旗

Boo牧夫Bootes大角、右攝提、左攝提、元戈、帝席、招搖、梗河、七公、天槍、亢&#27744;

Cae雕具Caelum近天園

Cam鹿豹Camelopardalis紫微右垣、六甲、傳舍、杠、四輔、北極

Cnc巨蟹Cancer&#27700;位、爟、鬼宿、積尸

CVn獵犬Canes Venatici常陳

CMa大犬Canis Major軍市、天狼、弧矢

CMi小犬Canis Minor南河、&#27700;位

Cap摩羯Capricornus牛宿、羅堰、天田、十二國（周、越、齊、趙、秦、代、韓、魏、燕、晉、楚、鄭）、天壘城、壘壁陣、哭

Car船底Carina老人、（南船）、（海石）、（海山）

Cas仙后Cassiopeia螣蛇、王良、策、附路、閣道、紫微左垣、華蓋、杠、傳舍、

Cen半人馬Centaurus柱、庫樓、南門、（馬腹）、（馬尾）、騎官、（海山）、衡、陽門、

Cep仙王Cepheus天柱、天鉤、紫微左垣、造父、螣蛇、天皇大帝、傳舍、五帝內座

Cet鯨魚Cetus八魁、天倉、土司空、鈇鑕、天囷、、天苑

Cha堰蜓Chamaeleon（小斗）、近南極

Cir圓規Circinus南門附近

Col天鴿Columba丈人、子、孫

Com后髮Coma Berenices郎位、郎將、周鼎

CrA南冕Corona Australis

CrB北冕Corona Borealis貫索、天紀

Crv烏鴉Corvus軫宿

Crt巨爵Crater翼

Cru南十字Crux（十字架）

Cyg天鵝Cygnus奚仲、輦道、天津、車府、螣蛇

Del海豚Delphinus瓠瓜、敗瓜

Dor劍魚Dorado（金魚）、（夾白）

Dra天龍Draco紫微右垣、紫微左垣、內廚、天乙、尚書、天棓、天柱、扶筐、柱史、御女、天廚、天鉤、大理、天床

Equ小馬Equuleus司非、虛宿、司危

Eri波&#27743;Eridanus天苑、九洲殊口、天園、九游、玉井、&#27700;委

For天爐Fornax天庾

Gem雙子Gemini司怪、鉞、井宿、五諸侯、天樽、北河、積薪、爟

Gru天鶴Grus（鶴）、敗臼

Her武仙Hercules七公、天市右垣、天紀、斗、斛、宦者、帝座、天市左垣、女床、天棓、帛度、屠肆、宗

Hor時鐘Horologium近天園南

Hya長蛇Hydra柳宿、外廚、星宿、張宿、平、翼宿、青邱

Hyi&#27700;蛇Hydrus（蛇首）、（蛇腹）、（附白）

Ind印地安Indus（波斯）

Lac蝎虎Lacerta車府、螣蛇

Leo獅子Leo酒旗、軒轅、御女、長垣、少微、靈臺、太微右垣、明堂、五帝座

LMi小獅Leo Minor內平、勢、少微

Lep天兔Lepus屏、軍井、廁

Lib天秤Libra氐宿、折威、日、西咸、罰

Lup豺狼Lupus頓頑、從官、騎官、車騎、積卒、柱、騎陣將軍

Lyn天貓Lynx軒轅

Lyr天琴Lyra織女、漸臺、輦道

Men山案Mensa（附白）南、近南極

Mic顯微鏡Microscopium離瑜、九坎

Mon麒麟Monoceros四瀆、闕邱、外廚

Mus蒼蠅Musca（蜜峰）、（海山）

Nor矩尺Norma在房宿南

Oct南極Octans（蛇尾）、（南極）

Oph蛇夫Ophiuchus天市右垣、東咸、車肆、列肆、斛、天&#27743;、糠、天籥、市樓、宗正、宗人、候、天市左垣

Ori獵戶Orion參旗、參宿、伐、玉井、觜宿、司怪、&#27700;府

Pav孔雀Pavo（孔雀）

Peg飛馬Pegasus人、危宿、臼、杵、土公吏、雷電、離宮、室宿、壁宿

Per英仙Perseus大陵、天船、卷舌、積&#27700;

Phe鳳凰Phoenix（火鳥）、&#27700;委

Pic繪架Pictor近（金魚）

Psc雙魚Pisces霹靂、雲雨、壘壁陣、土公、外屏、奎宿、右更

PsA南魚Piscis Austrinus天田、離瑜、天錢、羽林軍、敗臼、北落師門

Pup船尾Puppis弧矢

Pyx羅盤Pyxis天狗

Ret網罟Reticulum（夾白）、（蛇首）

Sge天箭Sagitta左旗

Sgr人馬Sagittarius天籥、箕宿、斗宿、建、天雞、狗、狗國、天淵

Sco天蝎Scorpius房宿、鉤鈐、心宿、鍵閉、尾宿、折威、天輻、傅說

Scl玉夫Sculptor近土司空南

Sct盾牌Scutum天弁

Ser巨蛇Serpens天市右垣、天乳、列肆、天市左垣、市樓

Sex六分儀Sextans天相

Tau金牛Taurus天廩、昴宿、畢宿、附耳、天節、天街、礪石、月、諸王、天高、天關、司怪、五車

Tel望遠鏡Telescopium附近

Tri三角Triangulum天大將軍

TrA南三角Triangulum Australe（三角形）

Tuc杜鵑Tucana（鳥喙）、鶴

UMa大熊Ursa Major內階、三師、上臺、軒轅、紫微右垣、文昌、北斗、輔、天理、中臺、天牢、太尊、下臺、太陽守、內廚

UMi小熊Ursa Minor勾陳、帝、太子、庶子、后宮、天床

Vel船帆Vela天社、天狗

Vir室女Virgo內屏、太微右垣、謁者、太微左垣、進賢、九卿、三公、角宿、平道、天門、天田、亢宿

Vol飛魚Volans（飛魚）

Vul狐狸Vulpecula近天津南

On Transliteration of Arabic
Kwamikagami, I'm glad to be of help, but why do you find it better to use superscript c instead of ʿ for transcribing ʿayn ع? I find it better to use Unicode characters instead of imposed formatting and HTML, mainly for clarity and simplicity. What do you think? --Alif 20:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * That would be fine too. In general I'd agree with you (which is why I tried avoiding capitals for the emphatic consonants), and as long as we're consistant it really shouldn't matter too much. But on my computer, the ʿ is displayed with a different font than the rest of the transliteration (it's not included in standard Roman fonts) and is difficult to read. Actually, it's scarcely legible, and we need to consider older people with failing eyesight. But my old transliteration was worse: I had used a reversed apostrophe, and as soon as someone clips & pastes, they could loose the distinction between that and hamza. Since I needed to normalize our usage anyway, I thought c might work. At least it's easy to read, and is unambiguous, since there's no regular "c" to worry about even if the formatting gets lost. "C" was the solution chosen for ʿayn in the new Somali orthography, by the way, and I've seen it elsewhere, so I thought it might be a good compromise. But if you want to use ʿ I'll go along with you. --kwami 23:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sadachbia
I had originally depended on Star Names by constellation for decoding the ambiguous word 'Sadachbia', and since he translated it to mean "lucky star of the tents", I assumed that the original Arabic must have been الخباء al-xiba' which means tent (lit. hiding/shelter), but now I believe it could be الخبايا al-xabāyā meaning the "hidden" (future destiny), which is more related to horoscopes and astrology. There are other explanations in the abovementioned source that I disagree with also, and will come to mention in their place. --Alif 20:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I've based the translations on standard English-language references. Since they get the transcriptions wrong half the time (especially with c/ʿ!), I wouldn't be surprised if the translations are off too. What we really need is someone who has access to the medieval almanacs, but what you're doing will probably be reliable most of the time. It's a good start, at least! kwami

I now understand that it is not الخباء al-xiba' but rather the plural الأخبية al-axbiyah. my doubt was wrong, and the translation I had assumed earlier, as tents, is thus correct. --Alif 20:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capricornus
Why use ī, which indicates a long vowel (ee), in transcribing الجدي when the final ya' is in fact a double consonant ya' + shaddah ي (yy)? --Alif 22:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, my bad. I misread the font - which is how we got Betelgeuse from Yed el Jawza! (I wish I knew how to make the default font size larger for Arabic than Roman.) Change it if you like, or I will when I get the chance. kwami


 * I'm changing it to jadiyy, to keep it as literal as possible. I've been using j for <ج> throughout; g is fine, but we should be consistent. Also, the English names are pronounced with [ʤ]; English [g] usually comes from Arabic <غ>, and I've been transcribing that with gh because there was no g (and because gamma looks too much like a y), so I thought j would be least confusing. But whatever works best. --kwami 06:47, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Betelgeuse
If anyone has reliable sources for Betelgeuse originally being "the house of Gawza" or anything else beginning with a B in Arabic, please let us know what they are. Meanwhile I'll follow the article on that star in taking it as a corruption of يد الجوزا yed el gauzā "the arm of Gawza". I have a feeling this is the kind of thing that might be changed back and forth, over and over. --kwami 06:13, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

NOT a list of STARS
As of today, it's obvious this isn't a list of stars by constellations, it's simply a List of constellations, and someone might find a little bit insulting what is stated here: obviously each constellation has its stars listed on its own page, but people (like me) come here precisely to avoid opening 88 different Wikipedia articles, hoping instead they were all listed nicely in this single article. I'd thank in advance anyone who actually made this list into what it claims to be. --Kreachure 17:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought the same when I first came here. If you look at the history, it seems it used to be a list of stars by constellation, but then someone came along and tagged them all "mergeto" the individual constellations.

Having done that, this article seems a bit bare.

Now this has been done, I likewise don't see the point in retaining the article. Alternatively, do we want a list of stars by constellation? AndrewRT - Talk 22:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the best way to do this is to create star lists for every constellation (e.g. List of stars in Andromeda) this page being the index for individual lists. It would solve several problems (star lists are too large for constellation articles and this article would become too massive if all stars were added here). Btw, don't add Messier objects to this list—they're not stars.--JyriL talk 22:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your thoughts. Having started the article I quickly came to the conclusion it was impractical. We already have a list of stars (and other objects) under the categories, e.g. Category:Andromeda constellation, plus a fuller discussion of the objects in the articles, e.g. Andromeda (constellation). Perhaps this article should just point readers in the direction of those pages? AndrewRT - Talk 22:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I already started to move those star tables into own articles. This one could serve as a "list of lists". Categories have the problem not having missing articles and lists could include information (especially catalogue numbers and alternative names) which make navigation easier.--JyriL talk 22:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

OPENING up ARTICLES
Can somebody open up (or turn blue) articles in selections of constellations soon (<1 month) in the list of stars by constellations such as Cepheus and Canis Major since if those list and table of stars are not there as in these two examples of specific constellations above. Also by next summer, hopefully, it should at least one-third to one-half of all constellations were opened. And sometimes in 2008 at latest, all articles in selections of constellation of list of stars by constellations should be opened or turned from red to blue. They should create the articles with just the star table, just like the first five stars that are already opened and also Vulpecula and more soon. The more information about how to make the table, go to the talk page in Talk:List of stars in Andromeda, Talk:Sagittarius, Talk:List of stars in Vulpecula, and Talk:23 Ursae Majoris. Cosmium 22:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "They" have a thing called "real life" (believe or not) and they are not paid to edit Wikipedia. Therefore if you so dislike seeing the red links, do a favor and create them by yourself easily by copying the lists from the constellation articles. The lists of star are found in the respective constellation articles.--JyriL talk 12:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I did this several times but kept on getting reverted. The simple thing is to point to the list section in the existing constellation articles to begin with and as a specific article is created to change the pointer to that article rather than a section of that article. --- Safemariner 15:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Blue and Red
Having a lot of red links in a list is heavily frowned upon in Wikipedia. One solution is to link to stars in the existing constellation articles and as new articles are added, the link in the list can be changed to point to the new article. --- Safemariner 04:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It was my intention to move the far too long star lists into new pages, but I had no time nor will to continue the tedious work. I will (hopefully soon) replace the ugly lists with much better ones. For now, copypasting should be enough.--JyriL talk 12:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The simple thing is to point to the list section in the existing constellation articles to begin with and as a specific article is created to change the pointer to that article rather than a section of that article. I kept on getting reverted when I did this. --- Safemariner 15:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I got that. The user who reverted your edits didn't seem to bother to give any reason for his actions. Anyway, I created stubs for each articles, so the red link problem is solved. Hopefully I get rest of the lists moved quickly. Although the lists are horrible, there's no point fixing them since I'm going to create a small Java program which combines a few catalogs and produces pretty tables.--JyriL talk 23:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion
Notice how it says in the criteria for inlusion header that stars need a 6.50 magnitude to be included, well take a look at the list of stars in andromeda and notice how immediately at the bottom of the list there are astars well into the 7's 8's 9's and even 12's, i do't call that very organised, i right now have to be somewhere, but i will try and do somethin about in the future - 210.54.229.151 04:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)