Talk:Lithuania proper

I've created this article as similar articles exist for other countries, too. (Finland proper,Sweden proper,China proper,) --Matthead 05:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Lithuanian nationalistic view
This part of an article is obviously biased - it does not cite sources, it claims that "Lithuanian state should be credated" although it has been created quite a long ago (Mindaugas anyone), and recreated (please read some books, huh?)), it does state that Lithuania Minor should be re-lithuanised (sorry, how can you re-anything that has been plundered and colonised by force ?) Another one BiiiG mistake - Antanas Smetona in nowadys Lithuania is not perceived as a national hero - he's considered a looser following Soviet propaganda. Another section of an idea of Smetona's article "having influence on interwar period" is an utterly absurd - he did write  his article in USA, and it has been left unfinished. So my conclusion - read some books before you go onto territory you do not know. --Lokyz 18:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * N.b:This commnet refers to previous version of an article.--Lokyz 16:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Memeland
this teritory was "deatched" not because of Lithuanian nationalism, but because of Antante's action to tame Imperialistic Germany. and it was claimed by different newly born (in some respect - re-born, like Lithuania) nations like Second Polish Republic, that didn't have even minority of population around there.--Lokyz 19:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Another one point - this is article about Lithuania Propria, not Lithuania minor, so this info does not belong here.--Lokyz 08:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Meaning
Lithuania proper means a land, which location is discussed. Later the rulers of this land expanded own power to other lands - thus Grand duchy of Lithuania emerged and this part of Grand duchy of Lithuania where Lithuanians lived was named Lithuania Proper or simply Lithuania. For Antanas Smetona book should be written separate article, I think it's impossible to find reliable and verifiable data where is written that Lithuania Proper means something more. --81.7.98.250 08:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please take a good look at the map provided in the article references. I do doubt that there is some sort of discussions in it, it's teritory is quite clear defined.
 * Smetona's book does not deserve separate article as it is of low notability.--Lokyz 12:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Map from nationalistic site, you think is an evidence? --81.7.98.250 12:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's discuss which map is form nationalistic site this one  or this one ]? First one is a scan from a document, the second one is a drawing of a computer illiterate.--Lokyz 21:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)P.S following essayish assumptions of your - here's the link and have a good read - although the article is about some different things - it's about ethnic Lithuanian lands, not about someone's essay writing fantasies. Have a nice reading day.--Lokyz 22:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, lets's discuss is this map reliable, on what data this map is based? That baltic tribes were "relatives" thus all land should belong to Lithuania? Second, I'm not a "litvinist" but the fact, ideas where was located land of Lithuania, where was the first meaning of Lithuania are various. Idea of Lowmianski is outdated. I'm not discussing who were/are "real" lithuanians. Third, it is a nonsence name picture with "ethnograpic regions of Lithuania propria", when Samogitia, quite a long time, was not a part of Lithuania Propria! --81.7.98.250 08:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That map is no doubt biased - thats is more a map of Lithuanians (including Samogitians), Old Prussians and Yotvingians. It belongs to historical fiction only. Iulius 20:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Lita
The introduction says that Lita is the "Jewish" name for the territory. Is this referring to Hebrew or Yiddish? Olessi 17:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hebrew ליטא = Lita
 * Yiddish ליטע = Lite
 * But it is possible that the author referred to both, 'cause pronunciation of Yiddish may vary. --Amir E. Aharoni 17:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Fantasy map
Please stop putting Yemalovich POV map - his theories are utterly denied(even by Belarus scholars, as a provided reference shows) and do not have anything to do with Lithuania proper, but rather with "national pride" class literature fantasies. These fantasies are not recognised internationally as valid. It does contradict to the whole text of the article, and is irrelevant.

Critics of factual errors of his writings are provided, they are indeed numerous. The same goes for "linguistical" toponyms localization, that does not have anything in common with historical tradition of place names (as article Name of Lithuania shows. It is no wonder, because, as much I know, Yermalovich was educated as literature teacher, not as historian or linguist. --Lokyz 19:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Toponyms are VERY hard data about nations' areals. Belarus is full of Baltic toponyms, especially hydronyms. Localisation of "Litva"-derived toponyms in upper Neman region is in good correspondence also with literature sources, including provided references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakarasov (talk • contribs) 20:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Ethnographic Lithuania
Is ethnographic Lithuania the same concept as Lithuania proper? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Barely - Lithuania Proper is rather Duchy of Lithuania. "Ethnographic Lithuania" term as such is 19th century scholarly invention. As noted, Eldership of Samogitia (that is part of Ethnigraphic Lithuania) was not part of Lithuania proper. There are maps in the article, you can check them yourself.--Lokyz 10:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ethnographic Lithuania was however used in 20th century; at least up to the times of WWII. Is it still used? I think it's a notable concept that should be described on Wikipedia, would you agree? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Lithuanians usually mess two terms Ethnographic Lithuania (Etnografinė Lietuva) and Lithuania Propria (Tikroji Lietuva). Even in this article presented map that not belongs to concept Lithuania Propria - how is related map with ethnographic regions? This bias comes already from 1898 - 1917 when as Ethnographic Lithuania was defined such territory reaching towns as Hrodna, Lida where Lithuanians long time prior were assimilated, therefore according Lithuanian nationalists inhabitants should be "re-lithuanized". Tarakonas 10:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's only you that mess things up. Lithuania propria is historical entity, Ethnographic Lithuania is rather new term, invented in 19th century. And by ethnography is ment not only the language, but much more customs, material culture and way of living (mostly of peasants). Some people mix it with ethno-liguistics, and this is not the case. So, according to Polish and Russian ethnographers (not Lithuanian nationalists as some are trying to present it) in 19th century  the Vilnius region  while loosing Lithuanian language still retained many Lithuanian customs and material culture (including Catholicism - let me remind you, that Belarusians were Ortodox, not Catholics).
 * Sure thing I know, that calling someone nationalist (or any other argument ad hominem just relieves the caller from an obligation to present arguments or even to take a look at presented ones.--Lokyz (talk) 11:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of ou in given context
Just because according to this site  2 ou  Adverb (a) place where; hence Russie Blanche ou LituaniQUE (note - not LituaniE) - is Whithe Ruthenia of Lithuania, or if you wish - Lithuanian (White) Ruthenia. Anyway if you insist on ou=or then it will be Ruthenia White or Lithuanian (Ruthenia being the name and Whitor or Lithuanian adjectives), but in no case or Lithuania (i.e. double name).--Lokyz (talk) 11:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't provide WP:OR, but give fact where is written in such context, please. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the map provided as reference.--Lokyz (talk) 20:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Maps could be interpreted variously. Give exact citation by professional historian. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 07:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Dubious statements
"Scholars often use term Lithuania proper to refer to lands inhabited by ethnic Lithuanians" I see only one note by Antanas Venclova who is not a historian.


 * Please be more carefull when you read - check the name of Venclova.--Lokyz (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Scholars is plural. I see only one argument, by non historian. And please don't delete arguments of other researchers. Why as Lithuania depicted territory of modern Belarus in 19th century, when Grand Duchy of Lithuania not existed anymore. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"no Lithuanian schools were in these territories at all." - this is mistake, Lithuanian schools were in Marijampolis (established in 1905, never closed), in Gervyaty in Belarus (established in 1920), in Vilnius (established in 1915, never closed), in Švenčionys (established in 1918) in Polish and Soviet times, everywhere where lived significant number of Lithuanians.


 * Please be more carefull when you read what is written - "under Soviet rule".--Lokyz (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "no Lithuanian schools at all" - this is real mistake, because Lithuanian scholls existed even under Soviet rule. Well, not many schools worked, but article says nothing at all.81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"many people in these territories now speaking Belarussian do refer to themselwes as Lithuanians" - this is OR or false. In Lithuania lives only 131 Lithuanians with Belarusian as mother tongue, official site -. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 07:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Please visit Eastern Vilnian region - It's now in Belarus - Lida, Smorhony and other cities established by Lithuanians. They told me it themselves. But well, i do see your knowledge of the topic at the fullest. Short hint - language does not make ethnicity.--Lokyz (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What is the meaning of the word "many"? I see no exact citation of provided source. Many towns were established by someone, but how this is related to claims "many people refer"? What do you mean, maybe so called "litvinists"? 81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Lida, Smorhon are Belarusian cities with Belarusian population. Are you sure they EVER spoke Lithuanian? They probably call themselves "Litviny" remembering the historical name of the region, NOT nationality. If the language doesnt make etnicity what does ?--Bakarasov (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, not signing of the known editors is considered a Sockpuppetry. Cheers.--Lokyz (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Article not belongs to someone. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

at the maps ==Removed misinterpertation==

Sadly your chosen excerpt does speak about 16th century an onwards, and does not mention Lithuania Proper term in the relevant term i.e. 13th century to the middle of 16th century, as first Ruthenians were allowed to settle to the east of Lyda. By the way, Navahrudek province was not and is not considered ever been part of Lithuania proper. Please be more careful when you read sources.--Lokyz (talk) 20:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Please, give facts for such POV. 81.7.98.250 (talk) 09:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * All references and facts are given - take a look at the maps provided as references, read the books provided as references. And please stop putting maps of 19th century, that do not have anything in common with historical tradition of Grand Duchy of Lithuania and represents Russian Yekaterine's politics of "deleting name of Lithuania" form history and Russification. --Lokyz (talk) 16:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to speak about the special supression of Lithuanian culture and language in Russian Empire. Publishing and teaching in Belarusian, regardless of Cyrillic/Latin script was also prohibited at the same time (19th), in the same area. Lithuanian is not spoken in Belarus not because of supression but because it has never been spoken, as the population is Slavic and speak Belarusian (Well, now actually Russian, except of rural areas).--Bakarasov (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Where is truth?
There are 2 contradictory statements in the lead of article: Which translation is truthful? As far as I know, Lithuanian word didžioji means "great, big, major" (cf. Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė) but I can be wrong, I'm not native speaker. But I'm sure this word cann't be translated in two ways; "genuine" and "major" are certainly two very different terms. Could be some Lithuanian editor so kind and repair it? --Iaroslavvs (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * There is nothing contradictory in these statements. Propria (latin) Proper (English) - is Genuine. Only after the concept of Lithuania Minor - a region in Eastern Prussia inhabited by mostly Lithuanian language speakers emerged, Lithuania Major was used to distinguish those regions.--178.16.43.6 (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that there appears to be a contradiction, but it is just due to the placement of the literal translation "genuine" in the text. It applies to Latin propria, not to Lithuanian didysis/didžioji. I will fix it. --Theodore Kloba (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Total propaganda
Maps and whole article with statements like "Thus Grand Duchy of Lithuania was divided into such historical regions: Samogitia, Lithuania Proper and White Ruthenia." is no less than chauvinistic propaganda. Everyone who has some brain knows that grand duchy exists when its formed of at least 2 duchies. And the full name of GDL was "Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Samogitians", later "Grand duchy of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians". It's even comfirmed by chronicles which were named the same: 1) The chronicles of Lithuania and Samogitians, 2) The chronicles of Lithuania, Samogitians and Ruthenians 3) The chronicles of Poland, Lithuania, Samogitia and whole Rusia [ATR] Velks (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NPOV, and also WP:CIV--178.16.43.6 (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Clueless
The article even contradicts the maps it refers to. On the map from 1570 the word "Litvania" clearly reaches the regions of today`s Belarus to the south of the Prypiac` river where Pinsko = Pinsk (Brest-Litovsk anyone ?). There is also plenty of other maps where Lithuana fits today's Belarus. I recommend the author to read the Lithuanian Statut if he wants to know what "Lithuania" historically means. P.S.: Every belarusian is a lithuanian, because Belarus was part of Lithuania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AA13:1101:7300:F8C7:C49C:D8DD:7511 (talk) 20:20, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Unmotivated removal of mentions of Belarus from the article
Participant Ke an abruptly unmotivatedly removes all the mentions of Belarus from the article, although it is clearly shown by authoritative bodies (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus among others) that subject of the article existed partially within what today is Belarus.
 * You can read my arguments in the change history. Authority is not an argument in itself. The maps is obviously misguiding since it shows Lithuania (Litva?) (it is not even named Lithuania propria) in the lands of Belarus only. It is also not in English and very low quality - it is difficult to distinguish regions, so it has no real value to the page. -- Ke an (talk)
 * My proposal is: to include all opinions from authoritative bodies, i.e. Academy of Sciences of Belarus and Academy of Sciences of Lithuania. Dear Ke an, I really look forward toward productive work together, as interest in our shared legacy of Grand Duchy of Lithuania is what unites us. Cheers! Vadzim (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not about academies of sciences or Grand Duchy of Lithuania even. Lithuania propria is more an etnographic term. -- Ke an (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:04, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Besides this map by "National Academy of Sciences of Belarus" has serious shortages and falsifications. 1 falsification was made by you, claiming it was issued by some "National Academy of Sciences of Belarus". You were lying. It was issued by "Белкартаграфія". Second - it has just name "Litva" on it - nothing to do with "Lithuania propria", no Lithuania propria boundaries, just a name for the sake of the name. -- Ke an (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 20:08, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My proposal to take it off unless the consesnus would be reached. -- Ke an (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "more an etnographic term" - an ethnographic term that geographically applied partially to what in XXI century is Belarus. Dear colleague, I hope we agree on that? :) Vadzim (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "It was issued by "Белкартаграфія"." - Exactly! And every historical map published by government map publisher "Белкартография" is curated/supervised by the National academy of sciences of Belarus, it is the way it is. Can you imagine what would it become otherwise, regarding scientific quality control? :) Vadzim (talk) 20:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * None of these facts about Belarussian Acadmy of Sciences obvious from the data entered in Wikipedia Commons, so your claims are clearly superflous and potentially speculative. -- Ke an (talk)
 * "Second - it has just name "Litva" on it" - Please kindly see the names of the article "Lithuania proper" in Belarusan and Russian wikipedias: they are exactly "Litva": Літва (зямля), Літва старажытная, Литва_(термин) Vadzim (talk) 20:27, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "no Lithuania propria boundaries, just a name" - Good god, of course, there are regions and not firm boundaries! We are talking about periods reaching as far as IX century in the region on the border of what today is Lithuania and Belarus - an area without firm geographical features like the straits of mountain ranges that could serve as such boundaries! :) Vadzim (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You are wrong, the boundaries of Lithuania propria are clear and it is not a region in Belarus. -- Ke an (talk)
 * My dear colleague, I've got an impression that you hold a belief that mentioning the firm fact that Lithuanian culture in the early and high middle ages reached even farther than what is today are borders of Lithuania, into territories of XXI century Belarus, is somehow wrong and makes Lithuania less Lithuanian. It can't be farther away from the truth! On contrary, modern Belarusians who are at least a little historically educated are endlessly glad to have Lithuanians contributed so much into establishing what today's Belarus is. Without mutual enriching with Lithuania, there simply would be no today's Belarus! I hope you'll value Belarusian editors' good faith by witnessing my silent agreeing that "History of Lithuania" box in the preamble of the article we currently work on should go before "History of Belarus" :) Vadzim (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You don't find already included maps on Lithuania propria sufficient? Why do you think map of only Belarus, very doubtfull with many layers without clear boders would complement existing data? -- Ke an (talk)

The main problem with you adding Lithuania Proper to Belarussian regions is that by definition that gives the impression that ALL of LITHUANIA PROPER (Žemaitija, Suvalkija, etc.) is suddenly ETHNOGRAPHICALLY BELARUSSIAN. I hope you realise that this is false. When one speaks about provinces, they are inseparable from their ethnicity - e.g. Moravia is a Czech region, but not a German region if it was controlled by Austrians & Germans at different times, Lorraine is a French region and not a German region, even if it was controlled by Germans for a few generations, Northern Ireland is an Irish and not an English region, even if was and is controlled by English, and so on, so on. I wish to ensure you realise that governmental control (e.g. German, English) of territory doesn't warrant naming the region as German or English. Same here.

Also, if you are pointing to prior to the XXIth century, the region was under no circumstance Belarussian. I have gotten the impression you identify the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as Belarus, and hence all other territories controlled by Belarussians. This is insane, as the roles were actually reversed - Lithuanians from Lithuania Proper ruled their Grand Duchy, from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea.

On a side note, Lithuanians would be happy if Belarussians learnt Lithuanian and spoke it as their mother tongue, embracing Lithuanian history as their own. Yet the main issue is Belarussians keep on taking Lithuanian history, crediting it as their own, and not bothering with the language of their ancestors, who were not Russians, but Lithuanians. You can't have a cake and eat it at the same time. Best --Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 16:09, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear colleague, I find your lack of good faith, lack of assuming good faith, as well as lack of either understanding or willingness to understand basic historiographical processes in the region instead of applying totally unscientific interpolation of realities of XIX-XXI centuries onto medieval times (!) extremely disturbing. Vadzim (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You are projecting onto others what you yourself are doing - you added Lithuania Proper to "Historial regions of Belarus", yet provide no real basis for it. Furthermore, what are you even talking about? I give a valid point, explanation and three examples. What do you give? Some unsubstantiated statements. If I am so wrong, then please, explain my mistakes. By the way, criticism is not a manifestation of bad faith. Best -- Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello folks. I am an uninvolved admin, with (apologies) absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the political or boundary dispute that is currently disrupting this article. For reference, I am pasting in the disputed map and caption which is repeatedly being added to and deleted from this article. It is a modern digital map, yet the caption claims it is according to a national academy in Belarus (see also file description of sources on Commons). Reverse image searching using both Google and TinEye reveal no comparable images anywhere else online, other than on Wikipedia related sites. I feel it is up to to cite a reliable source which supports the contents and assertion being made by this map, and that it should not be reinserted without additional sourcing. Images should be used to support text in the article, so I would expect there to be references in the article which explain this (along with good citations)  I note the image is in use on be-wikipedia (here), and that one user in this discussion has now nominated the image for deletion as a hoax. Furthermore, as the stable version of this article did not contain this map, I feel the article should stay for the time being without the map until this content dispute is resolved by consensus here or, if that cannot be achieved, is taken to WP:DRN. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, the majority of editors involved, i.e. Itzhak Rosenberg, and , are clearly for the keeping of the stable version of the article, with the only one against being . As such, there is an three-quarters majority consensus for the removal of this map. Best -- Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 20:56, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree - although I recognise the discusion has only been running here for a couple of days, thus far. But I have directly advised not to reinsert the disputed content, on pain of being blocked for edit warring. Aware of my total lack of understanding of this region, or of the languages involved, I sought confirmation from a fellow admin with far greater knowledge (Ymblanter) that my stated position here is justified. They agreed (see here), and thus the onus is on Vadzim to provide sufficient [[WP:RS] to pursaude everyone here that its re-inclusion within the article is justified. Unless that happens, it should not be added. Nick Moyes (talk) 22:34, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This illustration is nothing else than a Belarusian Litvinist fake dream. They try to steal the entire Grand Duchy of Lithuania history as their own and pushes such ridiculous illustrations as truth. Litvinism is becoming an increasingly important problem in Wikipedia and we should be aware of such edits in articles related with Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Republic of Lithuania, Lithuanian people. If anyone associates modern Lithuania with Samogitia - it is clearly a Litvinist propaganda and should be immediately removed from Wikipedia. -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 09:47, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:53, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Гістарычныя вобласці Беларусі.png
 * This map has no value - it is just hodgepodge of various places, tribes, names etc. Belarus never had a region named Lithuania (Litva). Lithuania is a state, not a region. So it is clearly a FALSIFICATION. -- Ke an (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Corresponding featured article in Belarusian Classical Wikipedia
Hi! How are you? Please, feel free to use the largest wiki-article about Lithuania proper from be-tarask:Літва in Belarusian Classical Orthography to expand the article here with translated text. It has 116 sources, including 49 in English, French, German, Polish, Russian & Ukrainian languages from the XVII century till the XXI century. There is 8 times more content than in the corresponding English article. It would also be nice to translate the article about Belarusian Classical Wikipedia itself, in order to overcome a personal bias against it, including the one persistently revealed by a user in this edition of Wikipedia. Best wishes,--W (talk) 07:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems that be:tarask wikipedias Lithuania-related articles are extremely dominated by Litvinism.
 * Even if it has more content, the quality of the sources must be questioned first. MKW100 (talk) 10:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)