Talk:Lithuanian TDA Battalion

Battalions and numbers?
Did LSP have battalions, perhaps numbered 200-something? I know that 300-something battalions refer to the LVR, but in reading about Polish resistance in Vilnius region I have often stumbled upon references to 200-something numbered battalions of Lithuanian police employed by the Germans. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No. LSP did not have battalions. It was a different thing - self-defence units or police battalions. Very confusing, I know. TDA ceased to exist in August and was semi-merged with self-defence battalions stationed in Vilnius and formed mostly from deserters of Red Army. Renata (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Relation to the Lithuanian Security Police?
Also, does this force has any relation to the Lithuanian Security Police? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Title should be in english
While some foreign language titles are clearly okay where the words have entered the English language (for example Einsatzgruppen, this one has not, so I would suggest it be reverted to the English language version.Mtsmallwood (talk) 13:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I would generally agree, but in every English book this is translated differently and more recent publications simply use acronym TDA. Renata (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * At a minimum there should be a translation of Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos in the opening paragraph. Again, the title being in Lithuanian, and not yet adopted into English, conveys no idea what this article is about.  Compare NKVD where the initials are widely known in English but the underlying words, no.  Compare also RKKA, the initials for the Russian words for Workers and Peasants' Red Army, which redirects to Red Army, the common English term.Mtsmallwood (talk) 06:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lithuanian Auxiliary Police
Redirects here. Is this correct? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. "Auxiliary police" is too general. There were like half dozen of different kinds of police during WWII in Lithuania. TDA was later incorporated into police battalions, which is the most infamous kind of police that existed. Renata (talk) 14:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Schutzmannschaft? This certainly needs more context. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 11:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas → Lithuanian Auxiliary Police – Current title, which is a result of a poorly informed revert, fails virtually all basic recommendations of Article titles policy guideline. The title is a Lithuanian name of the subject while its English equivalent is readily available and well supported by scholarly sources in English. No editors would naturally link to this title from other articles. All our readers are likely to search for and refer to the subject in English. The Lithuanian title is inconsistent with the pattern of similar articles in Wikipedia Category:Auxiliary police units. Please read the book by historian Robert van Voren titled Undigested Past: The Holocaust in Lithuania. who clearly and unequivocally defines TDA or Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas (not even italized in Wikipedia mainspace) as Lithuanian auxiliary police known in German as the "Schutzmannschaften". Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 03:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC) Poeticbent talk 03:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support renaming in English as the nominator. Naturally, Poeticbent talk 03:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ummm, actually, since the move was made without discussion or consensus, the article should probably be moved back to Lithuanian Auxiliary Police and *then* somebody should propose to move it to Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas. Might do that myself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You are confusing the subjects. Lithuania had 26-ish police battalions (Schutzmannschaft) + 6 construction battalions which is the Lithuanian Auxiliary Police in English. It is a very difficult and confused topic with limited reference material available. One is here. TDA was just one of the first battalions (later reorganized into 3 of the 26 police battalions). So Lithuanian Auxiliary Police is a much broader topic than TDA. Renata (talk) 21:08, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No confusion here, read the source please. It says (quote), "TDA, sometimes also referred to as Schutzmannschaften ... had been formed by decision of the Lithuanian Provisional Government on June 30, 1941. ... In total, twenty-five Lithuanian police battalions were formed. Of these, some were based in Kaunas, others in Vilnius (and named... Vilnius reconstruction unit) and some in other cities such as Siauliai and Panevezys ... the Germans happily documented the participation of Lithuanian "auxiliary groups": the plan seemed to work perfectly well." (end of quote from book by Robert van Voren). The twenty-five Lithuanian police battalions you speak of were all auxiliary police battalions of TDA. Please do not attribute a different meaning to a simple English phrase. Also, provide a wp:rs quote that the topic is "confused" (which it is not) and follow the wp:consensus. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 03:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You are basing your opinion on half-paragraph history of TDA and auxiliary police? If you would do a more thorough research (suggested reading is Arturas Bubnys, link included above and quoted in your source, where he describes auxiliary police battalion-by-battalion), you would easily see that TDA is just one (the earliest and the deadliest and most controversial, later split into several battalions) of the 26 battalions. So TDA is just one unit of the Auxiliary Police. Renata (talk) 13:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that TDA was not a Lithuanian Auxiliary Police? Sure, it was... You're going round in circles splitting hair to obstruct the necessary change. This is not the Lithuanian Wikipedia. I'm asking that this article be named in English as part of the series. That's all. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 13:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. If I understand this correctly, User:Renata3 is saying that Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas was just one of 26-ish Lithuanian Auxiliary Police battalions. Is this correct? If so, this should be moved to an English name for this unit, if one exists. Google translates Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas as "National Job Security Battalion",maybe it would be a better name? PS. It would be nice if Lithuanian Auxiliary Police could be at least stubbed. Renata, could you try this? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  04:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct. It's on my endless to-do list. I re-wrote Schutzmannschaften over the last weekend. So maybe I'll get to Lithuanian Schutzmannschaften... Re TDA, the title is in Lithuanian because there is no consistent English translation. Most English authors just go along with the TDA acronym. Renata (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Renata's explanation: not the same topic. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name - why was this decapitalized?
Shouldn't it be capitalized as Tautinio Darbo Apsaugos Batalionas? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:TITLE
I understand now that the old move request did not offer unambiguous English designation for an alternative English language title (in accordance with policy) which should have been the Lithuanian TDA Battalions actually, not the "Auxiliary Police", to begin with. Deciding on an article title per our own WP:CRITERIA has not being followed, as of yet. "Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources )" as oppose to any long foreign language phrases. For example, already a decade ago (!) the Polish Narodowe Siły Zbrojne was moved to National Armed Forces over redirect with summary: English, please in spite of earlier opposition to such a change. Examples go into hundreds of similar formations in World War II. The title (according to rules) is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize. User:Renata3 have suggested reading Arturas Bubnys ... so here it is; Bubnys himself using the phrase Lithuanian TDA Battalions word-for-word several times in his Holocaust in Lithuania. Please see other English sources as well. Thanks,  Poeticbent  <span style="color:#FFFFFF;font-size:7.0pt;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 18:52, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

What does "Tautinio darbo apsaugos" mean?
This was raised before here, with no reply. We really need to explain (in the lead) what does "Tautinio darbo apsaugos" mean. Google Translate suggests "National Labor Protection"? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:55, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

formed by Provisional Government
This seems somewhat controversial: Noting for the record that Voren p. 30 says "helped to form," Elinruby (talk) 06:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC) Voren p77 says "formed by decision of the Lithuanian Provisional Government on June 30, 1941." This seems fairly definite. Elinruby (talk) 06:39, 30 December 2023 (UTC)