Talk:Lithuanians/Archive 1

Cleanup tag
I added the cleanup tag since the article needs to be changed to fit Wikipedia's style and needs its grammar fixed. PeepP 01:16, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

PeepP, that is very diplomatically put. In fact, as of now, this article is semi-paranoid. anon July 12, 2005 14:50 GMT

I have now removed the tag again, since the (most welcomed) edit by User:66.30.94.153 fixed most of the annoyances. However, I'm still not completely satisfied with the article. For example, take this sentence: "A standard Lithuanian language was approved.". Originally this was "standart  (sic) Lithuanian language was approved." Does this mean that the "standard" Lithuanian was approved of, or that a standard was developed, like the article currently states? PeepP 22:21, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

developed 10:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * "One eighth of Lithuanians are immune to HIV which is also one of the highest percentages of immunity in the world." This statement needs to documented from the peer-reviewed medical-scientific literature before being included. 70.187.149.53 15:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with anon that much of this article is semi-paranoid in tone, with strong overtones of the early 20th century eugenics movement ethos. As a Lithuanian, I take some offense. Didz

Total Population and Regions with Significant Population
I am very displeased with the poor quality of this section in comparison to that of the other ethnic groups - very specific citations and extensive research - i am the one who added AND CITED the number of Lithuanians in Canada and the U.S. and Australia because those were the only nations I could find that had online census information. Please CITE! If there are no citations for the rather unconventional list of Lithuanians "elsewhere in Eurasia", any non-cited line on the list should be removed.

800 000 lithuanians in Brazil???? WHere is this number taken from? On LIthuanian version of this page it says about 35-45 thousands.

It is incorrectly stated that there are 800 000 Lithuanians in Brazil. The source cited mentions only 100 000 people of Lithuanian origin: "Em 1996, estimava-se que os lituanos, somados a seus descendentes correspondiam a um contingente de aproximadamente 100 mil pessoas (Lithuania in the World, 1996: 12)". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.31.107 (talk) 15:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Photo
I am aware that most major ethnic groups have a small portrait of several famous/important/influential members of that ethnic group...can ours please be made cleaner? Some are put together and uploaded as one image. Charle's Bronson's image is irrelevant, a bad shape, and there are many more important Lithuanians than this one (who was not even born in Lithuania) whom we could include. My request is to either be taught how to make this image, or for someone else to update.
 * So if I am correctly understand you - if somebody do not born in Lithuania he is not important? M.K. 10:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

To M.K.: You do not correctly understand me. I am just saying that there are better people to use as examples of famous Lithuanians. Yes, i think it is obvious that a Lithuanian born in Lithuania is a better example of a Lithuanian than others. -J. Raudys

Charles Bronson was still an ethnic Lithuanian, his parents were from Lithuania and was one of the most famous actors of the 20th century. I don't see why you wouldnt want him included. This was the only photo on wikipedia, if you can find a better one of him that is also properly licenced, go right ahead. Epf 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Charles Bronson was not ethnic Lithuanian. His parent were from Lithuania but they belonged to tatar ethnic minority group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.6.62.250 (talk) 23:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There's Barbora Radvilaitė and Mykalojus Radvila Juodasis, but Vincas Kudirka is not there? That's ridiculous... And why not add Sabonis, for example? --Gytaz (talk) 15:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

NPOV
This article began as a highly racist rant and this article retains many of those elements. The views expressed in (and the assumptions made in) the genetics section are, to say the least, highly controversial. The emphasis on 'blonde girls' appears to betray an outright racist intent. At the very least, this article needs some sources. - AmishThrasher 13:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that sources are required but what is in particular wrong with blondes in the text? There are less blondes in each new generation, it is fact, not a controversy. Sigitas 16:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The very notion that a national group is defined by its 'genetics' rather than its cultures and traditions is highly controversial; particularly if you define a Lithuanian as someone whose ancestors were the member of a Baltic tribe. This implies that someone, originally from another background, who migrated to Lithuania, spent an extensive time living there, and assimilated to Lithuania's language, customs and traditions and obtained a Lithuanian citizenship would nonetheless never be a Lithuania. Similarly, this implies that the large Polish, Belorussian, and historical Jewish populations in Lithuania - many of whom were born in Lithuania and had ancestors who lived within Lithuania for centuries - were nonetheless not 'Lithuanians'. This also assumes that many of those who do trace their ancestry back to the Baltic tribes never had an ancestor from elsewhere (given the number of times Lithuania has been occupied by foreign powers over the centuries, this point is highly contentious).


 * "Genetically Lithuanians are one of tallest peoples in the world. Height acceleration was fast through the 20th century although now it has slowed down." - There are also a lot of short Lithuanians, and a lot of tall people of other nationalities. Is there any evidence that the average height of Lithuanians is taller than people from other countries or ethnic backgrounds?


 * "Although blondes, especially blonde girls, tend to be talked about much in Lithuanian folklore, the actual pecentage of them is on the decline." - Are there any statistics to back this up? I'm not even sure, unless there were historical records, how you would go about measuring this. Also, why the emphasis on blondes? Is there a subtext in this emphasis about racial purity?


 * "Genetic divisions between the different Lithuanian groups were more pronounced earlier--in the 19th and early 20th centuries for example. However, an increasing number of marriages between the varying subgroups has severely reduced these genetic distinctions.  The genetic distinction of Lithuanians as a nation might be threatened due to the increasing rate of marriage with outsiders, the number of which increased during the Soviet occupation, and increases still more due to immigration and integration into the European Union." - Is there any evidence that the physical features or genetic characteristics of Lithuanian subgroups were more pronounced in the past? Also, if there is less physical difference now between Lithuanian subgroups, wouldn't it suggest that many Lithuanians can trace their ancestry to a number of subgroups, and that the differences between the subgroups of Lithuania today have more to do with cultural and geographic identity rather than genetics? In which case, why not talk more about the cultural distinctions and less about supposed historical 'genetic' differences?


 * "One in eight Lithuanians have the CCR5-Δ32 receptor gene, which may provide some protection against certains strains of HIV and of Black Plague. This is one of the highest rates in the world." - Again, a statistic? - AmishThrasher 03:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've cleaned this article up - AmishThrasher 07:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * AmishThrasher-"This implies that someone, originally from another background, who migrated to Lithuania, spent an extensive time living there, and assimilated to Lithuania's language, customs and traditions and obtained a Lithuanian citizenship would nonetheless never be a Lithuanian.". AmishThrasher, this is correct, because article is abouth ethnic group. Wikipedia describes Ethnic group as a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986). Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioral, linguistic, or religious practices. In this sense, an ethnic group is also a cultural community. So it is not enough to get Lithuanian passport and learn language to become ethnic Lithuanian - common genealogy or ancestry are the most important. Sigitas 09:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * and it is understandable that in such homogenic ethnic group as Lithuanians, some particular genes dominate. Sigitas 09:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AmishThrasher that some parts of the piece were ridiculous and in need of change, but hardly racist. If one says that blonde hair predomimates in Iceland, and brown eyes predominate in Nigeria, it's (at least currently), as axiomatic as the sun rising in in the east and setting in the west. Nothing controversial or racist about it. "Racial Purity" is a concept that AmishThrasher introduced into the talk pages, and was not evident to me in the poorly written article by it contributors. Lastly, regarding ethnicity, different people have different viewpoints on the subject. Some people simply think, their opinion is the right one, that's all. Dr. Dan 00:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Mischief
I removed Lamatians; this is apparently a people from science fiction (see Glory_Season) Novickas 16:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Lacking information about:
I wanted to know some more things like origin of Lithuanians, here I put some questions, and citations from the internet with source directed.


 * Origin of Lithuanians?

It was the Samogitians and the inhabitants of Aukstota who became the ancestors of today's Lithuanians.

Aukstota - which means highland in Lithuanian - is nowhere mentioned as such in the medieval chronicles and did not seem to be a political entity. Many of its place names contain the word aukstas, or high, while Samogitia, further to the west, means lowland. The city of Vilna (currently know as Vilnius) the present capital of Lithuania, is in Aukstota and Lithuanian scholars consider Aukstota to be the heart of the Lithuanian ethnic area. They claim that Aukstota was the location of the original Litva and that it was from here that Duke Mindouh (Mindaugas in modern Lithuanian) left to conquer the adjoining Duchy of Novaharodak and established the Grand Duchy of Litva.

However, the separate ethnic character of Litva is supported by the non-Slavic names of their leaders - Mindouh, Vojsalk, etc. Mr. Jermalovic feels that Litva referred to an unassimilated Baltic ethnic island.

I found this here
 * In article is written: "The territory of the Balts, including modern Lithuania, was once inhabited by several Baltic tribal entities (Sudovians, Curonians, Selonians, Samogitians, Nadruvians and others), as attested by ancient sources and dating from prehistoric times." Oops, but where lithuanians are gone? And how all these tribes switched to lithuanian endonym when lithuanians are not mentioned? I know it is romantical idea of "unity of baltic tribes", but how then lithuanians are formed when lithuanians don't participated? Is it true that up to the end of XIX century many people in Samogitia refered themselves as samogitians instead of lithuanians, so called lithuanian dualism? --Vulpes vulpes 13:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The 12th century annals tell us that the inhabitans of Litva were paying taxes to the duchy of Polacak and there are many references to Litva serving as mercentary soldiers in the military campaigns of the dukes of Polacak. In fact, the Lithuanians developed a reputation for military prowess. Some hisstorians point out that the suffix -tva in "Litva" is one commonly used in Slavic collective nous to describe.
 * The meaning of the name "Lithuanian"?

I found this here


 * Philosophy of Lithuanians?


 * What were Lithuanians good at?

About origin of Lithuanians. The Lithuania consists of not only "Samogitians and inhabitants of Aukstota",but of Sudovians and Dainavos(Dzukijos) inhabinants too. I personally recommend not to use Belarasian sources, cause there you could find that The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, was actually Belarasian country cause majority of citicens were belarasians. There are many Baltic tribes(more than twenty) which generrally are attributed as Latvian, Prussian and Lithuanian communities, however there are couple tribes which are half prussian-half lithuanian. The main differences between 3 balts groups are linguistics and burying traditions.

Tautvydas

The last pagans?
"Lithuanians were the last surviving non-nomadic European nation to abandon paganism." That's not correct. The last pagans, not nomads, were in Russia: chuvashes, Mari people, udmurts. They were baptized from in XVI, XVIII centuries. And paganism still alive there among some. Look: --Vulpes vulpes 13:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

lithuanian traits
my dads side of the family is lithuanian and although we all have blond hair(dark blond) none of us are tall except me and im only 5-6 not over 6 feet (i am still growing though) and all of our eyes are either green or brown not blue (im hazel). So why am i not supertall with light blond hair and blue eyes? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erikkaz (talk • contribs) 06:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Lithuanian population overseas
Ireland

Please don't remove Ireland as a country of Lithuanian residence- there are currently 100 000 or more Lithuanians in Ireland.

According to the source I have linked to there are officially only 35,000 in Ireland (based on PPS no.s issued since Enlargement). 100,000 is only speculative based on assumptions of the Black Economy and dependents brought to Ireland. I put up the link btw.(Irishman).


 * Number of PPS numbers artificially decreases actual number of immigrants as aobviously not everyone has and needs PPS number. My own daughter doesn't have one. Sigitas 14:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay but it's the closest we have to an official figure, and the media constantly interpret the PPS no.s as the best available estimate. (Irishman)

I changed the number to 45,000 and added a source for it. Please also check out Lithuanians in Ireland Taoiseach :)

Brazil

Wonder if the source about the Lithuanian population in Brazil is correct. 800,000 seems too much; different sources (various Lithuanian encyclopaedias, Lithuanian wiki page - http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietuviai#_note-2 ) estimate it 45,000 to 150,000, have looked through the PDF in Portuguese, linked as source for 800,000 population in Brazil, but could not find any hint to it (although I am not prof at Portugeuse).

France

The estimate of the Lithuanian population in France (4,000) is based on the combined assessments of the Lithuanian embassy in Paris and the Lithuanian Community in France. No hard data exists at this stage, the numbers are debated depending on who can claim to be a Lithuanian. Unlike Britain, Spain, Ireland and Germany, France isn't a place of choice for Lithuanian emigration and numbers are likely to remain fairly low.

History
In the Heading of History a huge jump has been made from medieval times to the end of the 19th century. In relation to the Regions with significant populations this is a bit odd. Namely during the "Great Northern War" at the beginning of the 18th century there was an exodus of people fleeing from Lithuania (namely Jews) to Western Europe. Most of them ended up in the Netherlands at the time a relative free haven. At the beginning they were absorbed in the bigger cities like Amsterdam. However this was soon put to an end and many had to settle in the various provinces of the Netherlands. The exodus must have been quite steep since both in later Lithuania and the Netherlands this was of a major concern. Lithuania had literally to be repopulated. The Netherlands suffered many year of relative food shortages. One must realize that especially Jews at the time were not welcome in Germany, France, or England. Today many inhabitants of the Netherlands don't realize they are in fact descendends of a Lithuanian diaspora. It is striking therefore that the Netherlands is not included in the list of significant populations.

drs. M.R. Niekus

Main image
I corrected photos and persons, since according to several historians Lithuanian dukes have nothing common with modern Lithuanian nation. See also Litvin --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 23:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please keep fringe theories out of main space, thanks. M.K. (talk) 05:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Fringe theories displays just your image. For example, practically all the Belarusian historiography does not consider Lithuanian dukes like modern Lietuviai ("Lithuanians"). And again for example, Barbara Radziwill in Belarus consider like famous Belarusian . --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 14:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from pushing your views with the links to unverifiable and un-encyclopedic sources of some tourism promotional website --Justass (talk) 15:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please, give authoritative sources, that the Grand Duke of Lithuania and Barbara Radziwill had Lietuviai ("Lithuanian") national = belonged to the modern Lithuanian nation. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 16:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Modern national states formed somewhere in 19th, of course you know that. But that does not mean that we should remove Joan of Arc from French People, or Leonardo da Vinci from Italian people, etc, etc And regarding sources, they are pretty clear:
 * Encyclopædia Britannica‎ p. 639 „he repudiated his second wife, the beautiful Lithuanian Calvinist, Barbara Radziwill, daughter of the famous Black Radziwill“
 * The encyclopedia Americana, Volume 24‎, 2001 p.799; „Barbara Radziwill, a member of a powerful Lithuanian family“
 * Slavonic Europe: A political history of Poland and Russia from 1447 to 1796;‎ 2006, p. 73 „As a Lithuanian, Barbara was distasteful to the Poles generally“
 * Historical dictionary of Lithuania, 1997 p. 237 „Grand Duchess of Lithuania, daughter of the Lithuanian Grand Hetman George Radziwill“
 * Rich noble, poor noble, 1988‎ p. 46 „marriage to Barbara Radziwill, daughter of a Lithuanian magnate“
 * I could cite more reputable English sources about her, but picture is rather clear, person came from Lithuanian family and considered to be Lithuanian.M.K. (talk) 22:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You know perfectly well that in English there is no separation between Lithuanian = belonging to Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Lithuanian = belonging to modern baltic nation. Like Alexander III of Macedon isn't Macedonian and Roman Emperors isn't Romanians the Grand Dukes of Lithuania and another Lithuanians can't be Lietuviai only because of the coincidence of names. --Kazimier Lachnovič (talk) 12:14, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you there (contemporary Lithuanian vs. Litwin from Grand Duchy). And also that changing of some GDL nobles' names to Lithuanian is really funny. If you look at their epitaphs/sarcophagi, clearly none of them have their names in Lithuanian. Therefore, there should not be any e.g. 'Radvila' or 'Radvilaitė', but Radziwill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.69.198.226 (talk) 14:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Macedonia in english - FYR Macedonia, Lithuania in english only Lithuania or Lithuanian Republic so your guess with Macedonia do not suitable). and your guess with roman also not suitable, roman(Rome) and romanian(Romania) - is different word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.196.249.45 (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.100.198.164 (talk) 21:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

More Information About Genetic Roots of Lithuanians
This article is very good, but I guess it is incomplete. I think this because in the 'genetics' part, we only have information about the Uralic influency in the Lithuanian people. I guess that the germanic and slavic influency should be cited. I'm realy interested in knowing more about the germanic influencies in the Lithuanians. Mainly about the genetic germanic heritage.

(189.100.198.164 (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC))

Mr. J. Middleton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.100.198.164 (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of text
I'm removing the sentences "The analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) further confirmed the absence of internal genetic structuring in the Lithuanian population. Comparisons with other European populations demonstrated that the Lithuanian mtDNA gene pool is more closely related to the mtDNA gene pool of Northern European populations, while molecular diversity indices (gene diversity 0.971 ± 0.008, nucleotide diversity 0.012 ± 0.007 and the mean number of pairwise differences between sequences 4.41 ± 2.19) indicate that the Lithuanians are among the more diverse populations in Europe" as WP:Copyright violations. Those sentences are a word-for-word copy from this paper Please see WP:Copyright for an explanation of WP text copyright policies. Since the copied material is short it could, in lieu of paraphrasing, be clearly quoted and attributed to its author.

I'm also going to remove some other material; "The Y-chromosomal data has also revealed a common Finno-Ugric ancestry for the males of the neighboring Baltic peoples...' and "With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns..." A single sentence there is currently referenced to the above paper, but I don't see where the paper supports it. I believe the Baltic Finns material actually comes from this Mankind Quarterly piece . I would prefer to see nothing on WP referenced to Mankind Quarterly, but that's another kettle of fish. Novickas (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)