Talk:Little Mary Sunshine

Little Mary Sunshine Article
The article on Little Mary Sunshine (LMS) badly needs editing. This musical is a satire, but the article barely scratches the surface of this satire. Seven of the eight main characters allude to other characters from earlier operettas and musicals, yet the article fails to reveal this or to identify the earlier characters. Sixteen of the LMS songs allude to (a) specific songs or song categories (with examples) from earlier shows or (b) an earlier show itself, namely, Naughty Marietta or (c) a character from Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker. Again, none of these antecedents or even the fact that they exist is mentioned.

The article also contains errors, both factual and editorial. Contrary to the article's "Background" information, LMS is not a narrowly conceived "sendup of the operettas of Victor, Herbert, Rudolf Friml, and Sigmund Romberg" (although those composers do get the most emphasis). Thirteen other composers--most wrote musicals rather than operettas--and their songs are also alluded to. And, whereas the operettas of the Big Three operetta composers end with Romberg's 1928 operetta The New Moon, LMS alludes to four musicals from the 1940s and three from the 1950s. The most recent prior musical alluded to is Meredith Willson's The Music Man, staged in 1957, just two years ahead of LMS--a long way beyond 1928. (The article does say "hints of Noel Coward"; but the Noel Coward material is more than a hint, and a dozen other additional composers alluded to amount to a lot more than Noel Coward.)

Another factual error is the statement that the "villainous Indians" of LMS are "taken from" Friml's Rose Marie. Rose Marie has no villainous Indians, just one villainous half-breed (Black Eagle). "Indians" and "forest rangers" should not be enclosed in quotation marks. And Rose Marie should not be hyphenated.

I have prepared extensive revisions of the article to correct these deficiencies. Among other things, the revisions identify the characters and songs from earlier operettas and musicals that the characters and songs from LMS allude to.

But I am a complete klutz when it comes to technical matters, meaning the techniques used to amend Wikipedia articles. I need help. If I supply the revised text, can someone out there help me by doing the actual revising of the article?

Saul Tillich gopher31@earthlink.net

Saul Tillich 15:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Saul - I have made a few changes that hopefully answer most of your criticisms - if you can work out how to edit Wikipedia (it definitely doesn't need you to be a "techie") then by all means go for your life - but realise that others have the right to "counter-edit" your work! I wouldn't put in too much extra detail about who is being taken off, and by what - too much detailing of the jokes in a humorous work NOT all that appropriate - leave a few for the listener to discover for him/herself!! Soundofmusicals 06:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I decided to respond to your suggestion that I "have a go" at editing the Little Mary Sunshine article.   I made 19 minor edits--mostly things like changing misused words (emulation, executed, invoking, rendering), tightening wordy phrasing, changing passive to active voice (part of the wordy phrasing problem), striking needless words, correcting faulty syntax, correcting punctuation, and standardizing the spelling of "favourite" (British) to agree with the later spelling of "favor" (American).


 * I also added several other composers (Sullivan, Berlin, Kern, Rodgers) and lyricists (Gilbert, Hammerstein) to your previously added Noel Coward under "Background." (Does this change qualify as a minor edit?)  But I couldn't get all the double bracket internal links to work.  Gilbert and Sullivan came out fine (colored), and so did two other links under "Synopsis."  But other composers did not respond to my typed double brackets--typed because I could find no internal link button at the top to the field.  Can you please insert the links with your magic wand?  And then tell me what I did wrong (is there a secret button?)?


 * Under "Music" I deleted the parenthetic reference to duets between Jeanette MacDonald, both (1) because it misused "invokes," which I admittedly could have simply changed to the correct "evokes," and (2) because the reference to film duets in an article about stage productions seemed not only inappropriate but unlikely to be what Rick Besoyan was alluding to. But this might not qualify as a minor edit, in which case you might want to review and (I hope not) restore what I cut.


 * Under "Characters," I inserted additional information opposite Chief Brown Bear and Madame Ernestine. Please let me know if this sort of change qualifies as "minor."


 * I guess I can make the other changes, the major ones, myself. I'm referring primarily to the new explanatory paragraph about the characters, the expanded discussion of criticism of the musical, and the annotations of the songs.  But I'd like to first hear from you regarding whether these changes are too "bloating."  You did comment that this musical "is after all meant to be fun."  I agree.  But the fun in satire is in knowing what is being lampooned.  I think my annotations, rather than being "too academic," add to the fun.  I would also point out that it is the musical and not the encyclopedia article that is "meant to be fun"; the article is meant to be informative--but if it can add to the fun by clarifying some of the humor, so much the better. Saul Tillich 16:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad you're getting the hang of editing!!


 * I agree with almost all the changes you actually made - although I think "satirizes" in the top line is a little too strong a term for what this jolly little thing really is - "satire" to me evokes Swift and Defoe rather than the Simpsons - (mind you I agree with you about "emulates") - anyway I have changed it to "gently pokes fun at" (or something like that - forget now exactly what I did put!). Also, unless you feel strongly about it - I'd reinstate Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy, perhaps rewording it a bit - I think their singing style and rendition of Indian love call may VERY well have been in Rick Besoyan's mind.


 * Several people have worked on this article, and your "tightening up" so far is a real improvement. Many Wikipedia articles that have been patched and repatched by a dozen people over several years cry out for this kind of thing. Also, your links are in fact all working, so far as I could see. I just manually put in the double square brackets myself - although there may be a short cut somewhere I have never found it! You will find that the colour varies - red means that the link can't be found - blue that it can, and purple that it can find the link - and it is to an article you have recently looked at yourself. I always check links with the "preview" button (although if you use this you do also have to "save" it afterwards). Sometimes links can work unexpectedly - sneding you to a totally irelevant article, so it is worth checking!!


 * The extra composers etc. are fine - as this whets the appetite rather than spoiling any jokes.


 * Personally - I do have a few misgivings about some of the other changes you have in mind. The remarks about "political correctness" for instance - I made a similar, but much more gently worded one - pointing out that the lyrics "failed the test of political correctness" and it got wiped almost immediately! An encyclopedia article about an artistic work is VERY different from a review. What the reader expects is "hard data" rather than too much interpretation of that data. (Although you can get away with a little bit here and there).


 * And as I said - you don't really want to give away too many of the jokes - perhaps one or two examples might be better than a comprehensive list? If you want to do this - put them in a separate section (look how the other section headings are built and copy that. Soundofmusicals 00:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have made just two slight changes in your song annotations - where I thought the connection was MUCH too far-fetched. There are a number of other places where there is either a more obvious allusion that you have missed - Mata Hari, for instance, is (from memory - must check this!) a very close take off of a song from Noel Coward's Pacific 1860 - and others where the connection seems to me a bit fanciful. Also - if you mean to make a point in the "character" annotations (or elsewhere) - there is no need to repeat exactly the same point in the song annotations. Do have another look at this, and consider trimming the character/song annotations a bit in light of the above. Otherwise I'll go through them when I have a moment (if someone else doesn't beat us both to it!). Soundofmusicals 04:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Gay subtext
An editor saw a gay subtext in some songs (by no means impossible, although I can't hear it!) unfortunately he/she didn't have an established user name and I haven't been able to get in touch. I am by no means sure that the lyrics quoted were accurate - or which song/songs they were taken from. Can you leave a message here please - and register a user name if you want to pursue this seriously. in the meantime I have reverted the edit. Soundofmusicals 10:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

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Do "critics" think the "Red Indians" in this one are offensive stereotypes?
They do of course - and you can see their point(!) On the other hand this whole thing is a (deliberately) silly parody that lampoons not just Native Americans but everyone in sight, so we might tend to at least partially forgive the unforgivable in this instance. But this of course is not really the point - someone had inserted "citation required" tags that either intentionally or otherwise conveyed the impression that to even mention any (perceived) hint of racism here was original research and (by implication) needed deletion! (Oh dearie dearie me!) So perhaps we'd better find a reference?! A very quick Google search produced four reviews - all of which alluded (to varying degrees and points of seriousness) to this "problem". I have stuck online web links to all four between a pair of "REF" brackets - which actually produces a neater "reference" than I expected. Anyone who wants to regularise this a bit is of course more than welcome. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)