Talk:Little Wallachia

Redirect to Wallachia
The redirect was reestablished to Wallachia because:
 * It's an established, fairly good article
 * It is a more comprehensive discussion
 * This article was a couple of sentences that were poorly worded

Perhaps there is more information that may be gathered for a "history" section to go into greater detail about Little Wallachia in that article, if you believe that there is content that is missing.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 03:09, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * This is a separate article better be stub than information is mix. 89.215.133.210 (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * 89.215.133.210
 * What is your intention with the content that you're adding. Are you intending to add a lot of content? Is it possible to merge it into Wallachia? What do you mean "than information is mix" - are you saying that Little Wallachia is not related to Wallachia?


 * I will post a message on the Talk:Wallachia since there have been two users trying to create an article from a redirect.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 19:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I bluntly tell you that Little Wallachia was not associated with Wallachia, and the so-called Wallachian lands in the Balkans. Romania geographically is not the Balkan Peninsula. Exactly. 89.215.133.210 (talk) 20:02, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Restoring article

 * To no gram doubt and controversy - Oltenia in Romania today is another sort of concept of Little Wallachia. Absolutely! 89.215.133.210 (talk) 20:06, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, I am beginning to understand that the issue is that we've got to make sure we're talking about the right geographical areas.


 * The only thing is the article talks about Little Wallachia being in Aitolia-Akarnania, a modern area of Greece.
 * And, I don't understand what "The name is a counterpoint to the Great Wallachia in Thessaly."
 * Does To no gram doubt and controversy - Oltenia in Romania today is another sort of concept of Little Wallachia. - mean that there was another Little Wallachia in what is now Oltenia, Romania?
 * Is it possible to provide coordinates (or if you give me the link from google maps, I can figure it out) for the geographic area of the historic Little Wallachia? Or, perhaps someone else can help sort this out that is more familiar with these areas.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 20:23, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, I just found something here, which also mentions Great Wallachia. This article is going to be about the place that is now in Greece - not the place in Romania. Got it.

-- CaroleHenson (talk) 20:44, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * 89.215.133.210, Would this be the approximate area of Little Wallachia in Greece: 38.596°N, 21.386°W-- CaroleHenson (talk) 21:30, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Is this the right place for info about the Little Wallachia in Greece?
I did a search - and other than this article, there are only 9 places that mention Little Wallachia.
 * White Wallachia - distinguishes itself from Black, Great and Little Wallachia
 * Battle of the Danube seems to relate to the Romanian Wallachia / Little Wallachia
 * Vidin and Johann Amadeus Francis de Paula, Baron of Thugut link Little Wallachia to Oltenia
 * Pragmatic Sanction of 1713 seems to refer to a Little Wallachia near Belgrade and / or Serbia
 * Sanjak of Pakrac and Sanjak of Pojega says "Because of the substantial number of Vlachs, parts of the Sanjak of Pakrac and Sanjak of Požega were referred to as Mala Vlaška (English: Little Wallachia)"
 * Great Vlachia - this is the Great Wallachia near Thessaly mentioned in the current draft of the article
 * History of the Aromanians - this is the Little Wallachia in Greece

So, I am only seeing two places for links about the Greek place. I am not sure about Sanjak of Pakrac and Sanjak of Pojega.

Is there enough information about this Little Wallachia to warrant its own article? Or, should it be rolled into the Aitolia-Akarnania, Vlachs article, or somewhere else?-- CaroleHenson (talk) 21:22, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Since the Great Vlachia and the Little Wallachia articles compliment, rather than duplicate one another— and much of the Little Wallachia information it told in the context of Great Wallachia—it seems to make most sense to merge these article. Then, make Little Wallachia a disambig page. Does anyone disagree with that approach?


 * For now, I am going to start merging some of the info here into the Great Vlachia article - because it will make it a better article.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 18:57, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Toponymy
So, in Bulgarian and Romanian historiography is best practiced concept. This is territory of ancient Akarnania and less of Aetolia, the last inhabited by Albanians from the time of King Stefan Dusan. It is.

Toponymy in this area and Latin and Bulgarian. As a source can be used book in German - Die Slaven in Griechenland. 89.215.133.210 (talk) 21:48, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I am trying to sort out what you are saying. I think it is:
 * When people think of Little Wallachia, they generally think about Bulgaria or Romania
 * This article is about the area in present Greece: ancient Akarnania, and not as much about Aetolia
 * I understand the rest about King Stefan Dusan, but I don't understand the rest of the information about Latin and Bulgarian - and I cannot read German. Sorry.


 * I added a map and more information. I'd like to add coordinates - based upon what you say + the map on the page now. I'll add my best guess of what the location is - and you or someone else can modify them as needed.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 22:53, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I copied the coordinates (location) from the Akarnania article and pasted (added) them to this article. I do not know if this is right. I'll keep reading English books to find out more information. I think that is the best way to proceed. Let me know if I get something wrong, please.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 23:08, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

So, to be quite honest the ethnographic sense - it's a bit difficult for the card - Vlachs have lived in the Middle Ages all internal uplands of today Aitolia-Akarnania. Along the coast settlements were inhabited by Greeks and Turks, where authorities are descending on marketplaces to sell sheep. In this sense, passing domestic and other Great Vlachia, where Thessaly field of Sanjak of Tirhala settlements were mixed Ottoman-Greek.

In this sense, summer pastures are mountains and winter flocks are in the plains. This is the situation. 89.215.140.175 (talk) 23:17, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

With regard to more information about the historical political map, it can use this English-language source -


 * And another thing, I'm not sure how long dated concept and whether it is not time Bulgarian Tsar Simeon the Great who gets Aitolia-Akarnania after the Battle of Achelous (917). At the time when Bulgaria was part of the Byzantine Empire, Aitolia-Akarnania is certainly part of the theme Nicopolis. And so to the other / do homonymous / Battle of Achelous (1359). 89.215.140.175 (talk) 23:42, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Conclusion

 * 1) The term is a historical and geographical and used in historical literature, but it is very common in English.
 * 2) The toponym comes in use at the time of the Duchy of Athens, to designate lands inhabited by Aromanians and not only.
 * 3) Toponym used in ethnographic sense and Ottoman times to the creation of the Kingdom of Greece when it inconvenient for political reasons.
 * 4) The previous judgment was confirmed by the severance of diplomatic relations between the Kingdom of Romania and the Kingdom of Greece on June 14, 1906.
 * 5) The historical name of Romanian Oltenia geographically homonym of Little Wallachia.
 * 6) To be historic Little Wallachia today territory of Greece, then there are Great Vlachia in Thessaly, or rather around Thessaly and in particular Pindos Mountains. 89.215.140.175 (talk) 22:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Scope and content
The present article is a horrible jumble of information, relying on "by the way" mentions in unreliable sources, and extrapolations by Wikipedia users unfamiliar with the region and its history.

"Little Wallachia was a state established by the Aromanians (Vlachs or Wallacis) between 1204 and 1393 in what is now the Aitolia-Akarnania area in Greece."
 * First of all, there was no Aromanian "state" called "little Wallachia" in Aetolia-Acarnania. Aetolia-Acarnania is not northwestern Greece, where the Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations locates "Little Wallachia", and unlike other areas in Greece, Aetolia-Acarnania has actually low to no traces of an Aromanian population in the area. The sources used to support the existence of this state are dubious in the extreme: a 1914 generalist work, and an Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations that is distinguished by the total absence of inline references. The dates 1204-1393 are completely fictional. For anyone interested, see the articles Michael I Komnenos Doukas, Constantine Komnenos Doukas, etc., on the history of Aetolia-Acarnania in the period.

"It was was settled by the Aromanians after they formed a kingdom they called Greater Wallachia, in modern Macedonia and Thessaly, where a large number of Vlachs, sheep and goat shephards of latin heritage spent the summers in the mountains and the winters in the lowlands. Some Vlachs were also wealthy traveling merchants."
 * The existence of Great Vlachia is well attested in Thessaly (not Macedonia), but not as a "kingdom"; it was an autonomous tribal area, under its own chieftains, but it was always subject to other powers, whether the Byzantine emperors, the short-lived Latin rule, or the Doukid rulers of Epirus-Thessaly. The existence of a "Greater Wallachia" as an autonomous area does also not necessarily lead to the existence of a "Little Wallachia" in the same terms; it is simply a reference to the fact that, among the various areas settled by Aromanians, this place had both the largest concentration and the highest level of self-rule. Also, the Vlachs being "wealthy merchants" accords with late Ottoman realities, but certainly not the 13th-14th centuries.

"Great Wallachia was created in 1204 by the Aromanians following the temporary collapse of Byzantine power (beginning of the Fourth Crusade). These lands were later overtaken by the Despotate of Epirus, and King Stefan Dusan assumed the title "Count of Wallachia".
 * The establishment of "Great Wallachia" is irrelevant to any "Little Wallachia", and is used as padding in an article. Dushan's supposed title also needs far better sources.

"The Turks overtook the area in 1393, and incorporated it into the lands of the Turkish Ottoman Empire."
 * Aetolia-Acarnania was ruled by the Tocco family until the mid-15th century. As above, the dates for "Great Wallachia", or rather Thessaly, are mixed with a completely different area.

"Before the Turks invaded, many of the Vlachs who were shepherds or people of the burgher class had settled on Pelion, Mount Olympus, or in the Pindu mountains. One of the places is called Voskopoli, which means "the shepherd's town" The picturesque town of Mezzovo and its neighboring villages in the Pindus were settled by the Vlachs. Another, on the western side of Olympus, is Vlach-livadia, which means "the meadows of the Vlachs."


 * Again, irrelevant. Metzovo and Moscopole are even more unrelated to Aetolia-Acarnania than Greater Wallachia.

"The Wallachia area was also called Vlahiotska land. In the 14th century, Emperor John VI Kantakouzenos called the Thessaly area Eastern Wallachia."
 * As above, irrelevant.

In conclusion, this is a topic that per WP:COMMONNAME refers to a different area altogether, and whose present content is the result of misinterpreted and poorly sourced and understood information. The present article should be deleted and the redirect to Oltenia restored. Constantine  ✍  19:37, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * , As mentioned in a previous section, I have merged the content into Great Vlachia and am very happy to edit it. I was finding that for the most part, the information as it was stated came from one person - and so your comments make sense. Do you have sources for the information that you have provided and then I can make the changes? Or, if you have sources, you could make the changes yourself.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * If an article should be written, however, it should use not tertiary and generalist works, but the main studies on the topic:


 * G. Soulis, Βλαχία-Μεγάλη Βλαχία-Ἡ ἐν Ἑλλάδι Βλαχία. Συμβολὴ εἰς τὴν ἱστορικὴν γεωγραφίαν τῆς μεσαιωνικῆς Θεσσαλίας. Γέρας Αντωνίου Κεραμοπούλου, Athens 1953
 * G. Soulis, "Thessalian Vlachia", in Zbornik Radova Vizantološkog Instituta Vol. 8, Issue 1 (1963), pp. 271-273
 * A. Stavridou-Zafraka, "Μεγάλη και Μικρή Βλαχία", in Τρικαλινά, Vol. 20, pp. 171-179.
 * Cheers, Constantine  ✍  20:00, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I'll have a look, I should have access to a few of the sources above. It will probably take me a few days to get the info, though. Right now, I would simply restore the Great Vlachia article too to its prior state, as much of this information is unsuitable to that as well (Macedonia, Vlachs as merchants, etc), while the core of the information is already in the article, and referenced by an impeccable source (the Oxford Dict. of Byzantium). Best, Constantine   ✍  20:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Excellent, and ✅.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Restoring article
The article should be restored in this because there is every reason to be separate article.

Nobody argues that other areas inhabited by Aromanians.

Sources have enough and nor should this article be made the subject of a dispute as to the name of Macedonia.

Gustav Weigand in his book Aromanians (Die Aromunen. Ethnographisch-Philologisch-Historische Untersuchungen über das Volk der sogenannten Makedo-Romanen oder Zinzaren) /Image/ clearly writes that Aromanians live in the Balkans in five separate areas and the third is Akarnania, including Aitolia-Akarnania. Here are two of their villages - Strongylovouni and Stratos, Greece. In the late 19th century, after Greece joined Thessaly Weigand close 5000 Aromanians in this area called Little Wallachia /Little Vlachia/. It's in the book.

As for the English-language source on the subject, I see one from 1835, namely William Martin Leake "Travels in Northern Greece". At that time Greece has stretched north to the line Arta - Volos, Thessaly and Epirus no as a part of the Greek lands. This limit of Hellas defined in 1832 by international experts of the great powers - Britain, France and Russia. 85.11.164.216 (talk) 22:22, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The article as it was was misleading, and contained little about the actual "Little Vlachia". There is no dispute about Aromanian presence in the area, but we need reliable sources on the precise topic, and more importantly, we need to distinguish between two concepts: "Little Vlachia" as a historical term, and the presence of Vlachs in Aetolia-Acarnania. We cannot build an article about the Vlachs of Aetolia-Acarnania generally and call it "Little Vlachia", because the latter term has a specific extent in time and space (i.e., in the late Middle Ages), and it would be WP:OR to stretch the term to fit to the present day. Generic information about Vlach presence in the area should be added to Aetolia-Acarnania, Aromanians, or perhaps a dedicated article, but not here. Constantine  ✍  22:35, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Rather the contrary.

This should be an article about the historical region named. It certainly coincides no entirely with the territory of Aitolia-Akarnania because coastal villages inhabited by the Ottomans and Greeks.

Even the name itself suggests enough that this is one of five regional territory of modern Greece, populated mainly by Aromanian. And many just given it is small because Thessaly is great. Actually it is semantic in both plans small - in territory and in population.

As for sources, I think that will be hard to find a more authoritative. It is simply ridiculous to assert that they are not reliable. 85.11.164.216 (talk) 22:49, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Please don't misunderstand: I did not say that Leake or Weigand were not reliable. I said that there are two different topics here: what one Byzantine chronicler (Sphrantzes, IIRC), called "Little Vlachia", and the broader subject of Vlach presence in the area. You simply cannot take a term that is essentially a historical hapax and apply it to a much broader subject. That is WP:OR and WP:COATRACK. We need sources that deal with "Little Vlachia" proper, in its proper historical context, in the same way that the article about Great Vlachia is about the Thessalian Vlachs in the Middle Ages, and does not cover their history to the present. You could include "Little Vlachia" in an article on "Vlachs in Aetolia" or such like, but not the other way round. I don't have access to Weigand, so I cannot verify your claim, nor what exactly Weigand says. Does he himself use the terms "Great/Little Vlachia"? And does he do so based on contemporary usage or historical one? Constantine  ✍  23:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

The term is derived from field studies and Aromanian endonyms area.

I also very please to dispute whether or not such an article in English - must have! Since English is not my native nor strong return text and edit it.

This is essentially and procedure. Nobody argues that the district is today in Greece, as for example ancient Thrace in Bulgaria. Does article Thrace - there. That's what this is about. 85.11.164.216 (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * There is not much said about Little Wallachia, but there is some. Would it be acceptable to add "See Great Vlachia" to the end of the second line on the Little Wallachia disambig page, so people would be routed to that article?-- CaroleHenson (talk) 23:48, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * "The term is derived from field studies and Aromanian endonyms area." Sorry, but no. The secondary and tertiary sources I have at my disposal indicate that the name is rarely used, and is definitely an exonym; the Aromanians don't refer to themselves as "Vlachs" in Aromanian. If English is problematic, I speak German, French, Spanish, some Italian, Russian, and some Chinese, I am sure we can work something out. However the problem is not the language in which we communicate: it is whether we uphold what the sources say, and not add our own conclusions and beliefs to these articles.
 * It would be a good idea, if it was relevant. As pointed out above, Great Vlachia has little to do with "Little Vlachia", and it would be misleading to try and imply analogies (especially of the state-building kind) where there are none. As it is, the dab page links to the two most relevant terms, i.e., the ethnic (Aromanians) and the geographical (Aetolia-Acarnania). If there is not enough information for a stand-alone article, then the relevant information should be included there. Constantine  ✍  08:41, 28 November 2016 (UTC)