Talk:Little brown bat/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Dunkleosteus77 (talk · contribs) 21:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Dunkleosteus77

 * I’ll be doing some copyediting  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 21:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * appreciate it!


 * Any reason you link to redirects (for example, instead of linking to Indiana bat, you link to Myotis sodalis which is a redirect of Indiana bat)?  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 21:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * changed to article titles


 * When the common name starts with a proper noun (like Arizona) it needs a “the” before it  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 21:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * gotcha


 * Instead of hibernacula, say colony or something similar  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 21:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I would argue those are distinct terms. Hibernacula refers to a place while colony refers to the organisms themselves.
 * Well you are referring to population loss, not habitat loss  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 14:34, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Rephrased
 * I was referring to the lead  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * 
 * Okay but hibernacula is unnecessarily complex. If an average high school graduate (or college graduate for that) doesn’t know a word, and that word isn’t really *needed* for the article, then you shouldn’t use it  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 03:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It is a hibernating bat species. No, "hibernacula/um" isn't "needed" in this article (I could talk around it, as you can with any term), but it is what the term is called. I'm not making the article unnecessarily complex, and this isn't the Simple English WP. My impression now is that based on the context clues of the sentence, as well as the obvious cognate of the word to "hibernate", the reader can understand the meaning. However, I can add an in-text explanation after the word so that its meaning is explicit, as I have with "uropatagium", "tragus" and others. Enwebb (talk) 05:02, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah I didn’t make the connection with hibernation at all, if you really want that word in there you need an explainer  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 15:08, 5 December 2018 (UTC)


 * One drive-by comment, considering how many photos of this species we have on Commons, there are some aspects that I think should be illustrated. For example, we have these photos of large colonies, and I also think we should show how the wings look outstretched, like in one of these images: FunkMonk (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * added quite a few more images
 * Looks good! I just noticed that the colony image description says "(mixed Indiana bat and little brown bat cluster)", which should probably be noted in the caption. Perhaps the head shot could benefit form a closer crop too. FunkMonk (talk) 03:46, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * cropped & lightened up Enwebb (talk) 04:12, 4 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The range map in Range and habitat should be in the taxobox, and you could replace it with a picture of a roost if you can find a good one  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you already say belly fur, do you wanna use back fur instead of dorsal fur?  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * done


 * Make sure to italicize scientific names in ref titles  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * done


 * You wanna be consistent with using centimeters and millimeters-with-double-digits so it helps mentally compare sizes  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * First paragraph of Head and teeth switches from weaning to flight and back to weaning  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Edited a bit. My intention was for the first paragraph to focus on dentition and the 2nd on other aspects of skull morphology


 * What're the tragi?  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * added in-text explanation


 * Isn't the Jacobson's organ for pheromones? The third sentence in the second paragraph of the Senses section implies it's worked in with echolocation  User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * swapped sentence order


 * What's a uropatagium? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * added in-text explanation


 * There seems to be some discussion on hybridization with the Yuma myotis on MSW3 <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 00:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * not proven, but I added that it's been speculated and there are conflicting studies


 * I don’t think the definition of swarming (the one in quotes) is really necessary <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 19:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * removed


 * When do males sexually mature? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 19:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * year 2, added


 * File:Distribution of Myotis lucifugus.png cites Fenton & Barclay, 1980, but you should put a full reference to the study (or at least a link) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 19:38, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * added the ref to the caption
 * No I meant to the source line of the image at the Commons <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 14:41, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * done


 * Use meters per hour instead of meters per second <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 21:37, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * okay

anything else?
 * You should say where in the body the parasites are found (like say gastric helminth parasites) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * done


 * "Also, during torpor, their body temperature is colder," that's a little late for an explanation <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean here. In context, that content is "Survivors of white-nose syndrome have longer bouts of torpor than individuals that die. Also, during torpor, their body temperature is colder." meaning that survivors of WNS are in torpor at lower body temperatures that individuals that die.
 * you spend the previous paragraph talking about torpor and then in the middle of this paragraph you explain what torpor is <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:38, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not explaining what torpor is; I'm explaining why some bats survive white-nose syndrome. I can talk more about torpor in the previous paragraph. Enwebb (talk) 03:35, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What about something like ...have longer bouts of torpor and lower bodies temperatures during torpor than individuals that die. (assuming I'm reading that pair of sentences correctly)? Guettarda (talk) 03:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * thank you for the suggestion--sentences merged together. I also added a physiology section. Enwebb (talk) 04:09, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Some information on Range is only in the Predation and disease section <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I've read through the predation and disease section several times now but I'm not sure which content you're referring to. Can you be more specific? Enwebb (talk) 04:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Things like “In some colonies where grouping behavior was common before exposure to white-nose syndrome, bats now hibernate in a more solitary fashion” which should be in the Range section but aren’t <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:38, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Respectfully, I disagree. I don't consider social behavior under the purview of range and habitat. Enwebb (talk) 03:35, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * the Range section seems to imply the bats always congregate in colonies <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 03:55, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the range section implies that. Regardless, I added a social behavior section to elucidate social behaviors in this species. I also added more-specific information to the predation and disease section regarding the impact that white-nose has on social roosting behaviors. Enwebb (talk) 04:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

well phrases like “the largest known aggregations of this species,” and, “maternity colonies,” and even the word “roost” (though not the technical definition, but connotation is more important than denotation because a reader will always assume it’s the former) imply more than one, and though you never explicitly say it, I would have thought these bats always roost in colonies if I only read the Range or Roosting habitat section (which is where I would look for such information since I’m looking for the word “roost” and the average reader does not read articles to their entirety top to bottom in order). Alternatively you could change “Social behavior” to “Social and roosting behavior” or simply “Roosting behavior” <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It is not my issue if you (or the reader) inserts nonexistent words into the article. We have been doing a lot of quibbling lately, but here are two options: you decide that the article meets the good article criteria, which are, after all what is is being judged against. Pass the article. You decide that the article does not meet the standards. Fail the article. Social behavior is not habitat selection. If the reader wants to know about roosting habitat, they can find it in the roosting habitat section. If they want to know about social behavior, they can find it in the social behavior section. I've been pretty accommodating to this knit-picking so far, but I am uninterested in continuing. Have we had a falling out or something? Because it seems that you are reviewing this as if I've wronged you. Enwebb (talk) 23:21, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Woah I’m just trying to make sure it’s good and ready to go as well as it can possibly be, and sure this isn’t FA but if I see a point where the article can be better it should be taken <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 23:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the change you are proposing would improve the article. I don't understand why the creation of a social behavior section is not enough to address your concerns. Enwebb (talk) 04:26, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This isn’t a point to fail, but I implore you to reconsider because people will go to the section with “roost” in the title to learn about roosting. Most people will not see the social behavior section for roosting information because they are looking for the word “roost” so you could just change social behavior to roosting behavior because that’s all that’s in that section <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 19:25, 13 December 2018 (UTC)


 * And that's everything <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background:#E6E6FA;border:solid 1px;border-radius:7px;box-shadow:darkblue 0px 3px 3px;"> User:Dunkleosteus77 &#124;push to talk 22:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)