Talk:Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom

Requested move 1 July 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move the unwithdrawn proposals per unanimous approval. Jujutsuan ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; talk &#x7C; contribs) 19:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

– Several reasons: Jujutsuan ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; talk &#x7C; contribs) 02:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.  Omni Flames  ( talk ) 00:44, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom → Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom
 * Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom → Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom (disambiguation)
 * Liturgy of St Gregory the Theologian → Anaphora of Saint Gregory
 * Liturgy of Saint Basil → Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil
 * Liturgy of Addai and Mari → Divine Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari (withdrawn; see discussion below)
 * Liturgy of St Tikhon → Divine Liturgy of Saint Tikhon
 * Liturgy of St James → Divine Liturgy of Saint James
 * 1) These articles, all of which are variations on Divine Liturgy, currently exhibit a disturbing level of inconsistency in the names.
 * 2) Some are called just "Liturgy", some are called "Divine Liturgy", even though they're all Divine Liturgies (one exception: see #3).
 * 3) The standard convention seems to be to spell out "Saint" in article names unless there's a compelling reason not to.
 * 4) It's an issue to have the disambiguation page for the Chrysostom litugy not match the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC page name when it's so easy to do; it makes disambig page links way too easy to put into articles and forces reliance on the detection bots for no good reason.
 * 5) Liturgy of Gregory is primarily an anaphora, not a full Divine Liturgy; current title makes it out to be on par with other full Divine Liturgies, which it's not.
 * Comment: I basically agree with the proposal, but I think we should look for the usage in the reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME). I see that this source supports the "Anaphora" title. On the other hand, I can't find a single source that uses "Divine Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari". It's either "Liturgy of Addai and Mari" or similar spelling or "Anaphora of Addai and Mari" . I don't think we should go against WP:COMMONNAME, so in this case I think the page should not be moved. Other proposals are to substitute "St." with "Saint", which I support for consistency.  Vanjagenije   (talk)  07:57, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: like, I generally agree to the moves. But, see here (copyright held by Syrian Orthodox Dioceses of North America and Canada) for some background and here: "we have published the Holy Liturgy of St. James."
 * Liturgy of St James → Holy Liturgy of Saint James with redirect from Anaphora of Saint James
 * The disambiguation page describes musical works that may not actually contain the term divine, so adding the term to the title may be confusing. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 12:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that "Anaphora of Addai and Mari" is commonly used mainly because the anaphora contained within the liturgy was the subject of debate over validity, not because there is no complete Divine Liturgy under that name. Also, "Holy Liturgy" is not a proper name, analogous to "Holy Mass", which violates WP:NPOV and isn't used here.  "Divine Liturgy", on the other hand, is a proper name.  So the real question is between "DL" and "L".   Jujutsuan  ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; talk &#x7C; contribs) 15:21, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I just said the the current title ("Liturgy of Addai and Mari") is better than the proposed one ("Divine Liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari") because the proposed one is not used in sources. I did not argue for the "Anaphora of Addai and Mari".  Vanjagenije  (talk)  15:31, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, I concede the Addai and Mari entry based on this Ngram. Jujutsuan  ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; talk &#x7C; contribs) 20:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

regarding your comment above, could you clarify your position/suggestion? I'm not sure what you meant to say exactly. Thanks. Jujutsuan ( Please notify with &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; talk &#x7C; contribs) 19:37, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not voting in this because I would just be guessing about the titles. My comment was just an uninformed comment. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:18, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 August 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom → Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom – WP:CONCISE per WP:CONSISTENCY with Liturgy of Saint James and Liturgy of Saint Cyril (as such arguably also with concern for WP:NPOV). PPEMES (talk) 15:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:01, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Extended this proposal by making it a categorical name request over the board. Please see below. PPEMES (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 28 August 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

– Per WP:CONSISTENCY with Liturgy of Addai and Mari, Liturgy of Preparation, Liturgy of Saint Basil, Liturgy of Saint James and Liturgy of Saint Cyril. As emphasised by Talk:Liturgy of Saint James. PPEMES (talk) 19:19, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Divine Liturgy of Saint Tikhon → Liturgy of Saint Tikhon
 * Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts → Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts
 * Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom → Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recommended: Add reference to modern musical composition: Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom by Alexander Arkhangelsky
As attested by the long list of modern musical settings for the text of the liturgy cited in the article, this particular liturgical text is extremely popular -- the best-known classical musical accompaniments (for non-Russian audiences, at least) are those written by Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff.

For accuracy, I'd recommend adding a reference to Alexander Arkhangelsky's chorale setting for this work, apparently composed sometime on or before 1898. As noted in his biographical article, Arkhangelsky (1842-1924?) wrote over 300 chorale works for the Russian Orthodox Church. This work was recorded in 1956, and that performance was subsequently republished a number of times. See, e.g., https://ia802307.us.archive.org/7/items/lp_archangelsky-the-divine-liturgy-of-saint-j_cathedral-choir-of-the-holy-virgin-protect/lp_archangelsky-the-divine-liturgy-of-saint-j_cathedral-choir-of-the-holy-virgin-protect.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atavisticnarrativist (talk • contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)