Talk:Liver-Eating Johnson

Untitled
John Liver Eating Johnston was born in NJ. He was not old enough to go out to the Montana Territory until 1862. He was at sea and probably signed into the Navy. He did join the Union Army and was in the 2nd Colorado Cav. He was just short of 6 foot tall. (His height was listed as 5'11 and his brother John Garrison was also.) His ancestry is from Scotland and from the border of Germany and Holland. I have found his roots from various channels of research. His father had been married at least once before and there were 2 sons and a daughter. None had children. His father married again and produced 2 more sons and more daughters. There are living relatives from the daughters. They were not aware of being related to Johnston until I called them. I will have all this information and much more in my forthcoming book. I am putting it together now and hope that research continues.... See     www.johnlivereatingjohnston.com     for more info and a photo of him. Feel free to use any and all info on my site, Dorman Nelson, Biographer. Johnston is now at rest in Trail Town, Cody, Wyoming. See Crow Killer, Mountain Man, The Avenging Fury of the Plains, and the movie Jeremiah Johnson for more on him fact and fable.

Can anybody produce a reliable citation for Johnston being 6'6" tall? I've been inside his cabin in Red Lodge, Montana, and I can't believe someone would build a cabin with a ceiling that short if he was that tall. Gary D Robson 22:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Response
I suggest you go out and build a log cabin by yourself. Emphasis on 'Yourself' (That means alone, without help). You will then find out just why the walls are so short and the ceiling so low. It isn't a matter of personal height but, rather one of physical strength. Trying to lift or move a half ton log six feet into the air, or higher, is not a simple human trick. Nor is chopping down and moving the extra trees it takes either. That's a job for a group of men or a team of horses. Being alone, Johnson would not have been able to build cabin walls very high. Besides, the cabin is for shelter from the elements, it isn't meant to be an architectural status symbol. As long as it functioned to keep out the snow and rain it was doing it's job. 07:44 19 March 2010

exact height of John Johnson
The book Crow Killer: Saga of Liver Eating Johnson states that he was approximatly six foot and powerfully built in 1843 at about the age of twenty (page twenty five). Apparently, like most information about him, nobody had the temerity to actually ask him such a personal question ! --Zennonx 02:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Much of the content of Raymond W Thorp's book, 'Crow Killer,' has been called into question (see, for example, the essay in 'Still Speaking Ill of the Dead,' from the Montana Historical Society). 'Crow Killer' is a collection of second- and third-hand anecdotes with little hard data backing it up. They're probably right in this case (concerning his height), but if we can't do any better than that, we should probably remove the reference to his height entirely and simply say that he was "tall and powerfully built." Everyone seems to agree on that much. Gary D Robson 04:16, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. suffice it to say, regardless his height/weight, people who knew and rode with him saw him as a large powerful man. This seems to be a common response to people who generate a great deal of respect, and in his case, physical space/distance from his person! As regards your original assessment that his cabin in Red Lodge (which I've never seen) was kind of low for a man of his alleged height, I have visited a few settler/pioneer cabins here in the midwest and was also struck by how low they are, including Abe Lincolns homestead outside Springfield, Il. Maybe it was to conserve energy and resources for the really important stuff, like the barn !?--User:zennonx 19:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)


 * He had no livestock and built no barn. It was just the one little cabin. Gary D Robson 16:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe the last statement about 'important stuff' was in reference to his experience visiting Abe Lincolns homestead. It seems to me that he was just relating to the discussion about Johnsons cabin based on his own experiences. Correct me if I'm wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.89.69.241 (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Parents of John GARRISON a.k.a. John "Jeremiah" Johnson
Low ceilings were actually popular in cabins for easier heating.

Here is what I would like to know. Who were John GARRISON alias John "Jeremiah" Johnson parents? Looking at New Jersey after 1824 for his parents. There were at least 112 GARRISON households in New Jersey in 1830. None were listed in the city Little York, but three households in Hunterdon Co. NJ: John R P GARRISON, William GARRISON, and George GARRISON. Only John R P GARRISON with 1 female under 5/daughter, 1 male 5-10/son, 1 female 20-30/wife, 1 male 30-40/self, has a male young enough to be John Garrison a.k.a. John "Jeremiah" Johnston b.1824. Although I do not know if John R P GARRISON is the father of John "Jeremiah" Johnston, he is the son of William + Ose (Roberts) GARRISON. Father and son appeared next to each other on the 1830 U.S. CENSUS in Amwell, Hunterdon, New Jersey.

So, does anyone know who the parents of John GARRISON alias John "Jeremiah" Johnson were? --CatherineProphitDemers 16:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Confirmation of Johnson being huge
In the book "Footsteps along the Yellowstone" the author Randall Naylor says that not only was Johnston 6 and a half feet tall but also 250 pounds. He cites a man named Horn Miller who rode with Johnston for years, and was reveared for his brutal honesty. This book is out of print now, and the only place your going to be able to find it is at a used book store. It was published by the Naylor Company publishing house. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.41.136.51 (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2012 (UTC) However, if one does more research on Jack Johnson's height, one will find overwhelming evidence that his height seemed to grow along with his fable. Further research will probably show his height to actually be just under 6 feet, at 5 ft 11 inches and then some. This does not mean he was not a big man by any stretch of the imagination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.216.219 (talk) 19:43, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

This article needs to be cleaned up
I tidied it up a little bit, but it's pretty POV and needs to be organized better. --64.69.32.250 19:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Article semi-protected
I have semi-protected this article after a spate of vandalism, mostly by anonymous IPs: see, , , , and. I have used template sprotect, but I suspect that the semi-protection may need to be more than short-term, so the template probably ought to changed to sprotect2. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Now the article really needs to be cleaned up. It was much better before the most recent change. Now it is very biased, opinionated, and hard to believe that any facts are true. Dpettig 20:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

John Johnston
There are a number of newspaper articles that John wrote himself where he endevored to clear his name in later life and set many stories straight that were circulating about him. These articles he wrote were posted in Letters to the editor of he newspapers in Helena or Missoula, Mt. I read a copy of these clippings in the Winnett, Mt. library in 1993 as I was interested in seeing the man that had build some of the "wolfer dens" in the Blood Creek drainage of the lower Musselshell River. The book is a small red hardback dedicated to the history of the area around the Musselshell River. I can not remember the name. There is still there carved into the soft rock a small sleeping area about 5' x 7' with a sleeping bench. A full length shot of him from his days as a sheriff at Red Lodge shows him as big boned man. Here are some of what I remember from the articles.........

1. John claimed most strongly to have never had a wife.. ever.. indian or otherwise. He claimed the story came from his escorting an indian woman to a frontier post and she claiming that they were "man and wife" upon their arrival. He figured that she did this to keep from being harrassed. He never had one that was killed by the Crow.

2.He recieved the nick name "liver eating" from a small gun fight with 6 Sioux indians at the mouth of the Mussellshell River. It evolved into a stalemate and John went out onto the open ground in full view of the 5 surviving Sioux holed up in a small coulee and removed a small piece of the liver with his knife and proceeded to pretend to feast on it. All those that saw this thought it was real. He stated that this took place near his wood yard that he maintained for the steamboats. This area is all under water now.

3. He tried farming cabbage for 2 seasons on an island in the Yellowstone near Billings. The local wilife kept eating the profits.

4. He hated Bill Cody with a passion and called him a liar at least twice to his face and Cody made it a point to avoid him.

5. Accused the army officers of the unit he was scouting for of being cowards during the Nez Perce retreat campaign. He claimed to have had the Nez Perce spotted and in a good position for ambush, but that the officers decided that they needed many more troops and let the Nez Perce go on their way. he stated that these officers were well know individuals for their courage (at that time), but he stated that they were in fact cowards all.

6. There was an article from a man that lived in Red Lodge, Mt as a boy the related that John smuggled him and another boy into a show under his great coat. The same man stated that he had seen him settle arguements of men in town by grabbing the 2 closest and smashing their heads together. Others he just started to kick them down onto the streets and continue to do so till they were unconcious. He stated himself that he did not like to use weapons to subdue others but just kicked them into place if they got out of order. It was said his beatings were to be remembered by all the felt them or saw them.

7. A woman settler on the river stated that she remembers the hugh amount of meat that he would put away at a sitting. She once invited him over to a supper and set 10 pounds of meat and some salt out in front of him and the whole family watched in astonishment as he finished it all off in short order. He commented that during the winter months he would eat 2 elk or 6 deer a week on the lower Musselshell River.

8. He knew whom the husband was of the "crazy women of the Musselshell", but would not reveal his identity as the man had not said he wanted it to be known. Rumor was it was a well known trapper that had gone a bit crazy himself after their children were killed.

9. He was not a killer of the Crow, but had in fact been made a chief of that nation out of their respect for him. He admitted to killing several but these were in self defense.

10. He did not like the Blackfoot, but this was not unusual of the times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.133.193 (talk) 22:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

11. Book to read "Life and Death at The Mouth of the Musselshell" 1868-1872 Journels by C.M. Lee, gunsmith near Fort Mussellshell John Johnson is mentioned here many times.

Inaccuracy of Johnson being in Civil War
In the article it says Johnson claimed to have joined the Union Army during the Civil War. The article then claims that he left for the west after striking an officer. Then it goes on to say, while in the west, his Indian wife was killed in 1847. Here is the inaccuracy, if Johnson was a mountain men in the latter part of the era (roughly considered the 1840s) then his wife is believed to have died in the 1840s, how could John Johnson served as a Union soldier in the Civil War started in 1861 and ended in 1865 then go on to become a mountain man after deserting??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.93.2.80 (talk) 23:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There is also the confusion of the paragraph stating that he struck an officer then deserted then later in the article it states that he served in the Union army then received an honorable discharge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Earledecker (talk • contribs) 18:20, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

POV problems
The article seems to promote Liver Eating Johnson and uses various times "indians", which is an outdated and rather offensive to said people. I got rid of some of the POV but it still needs work. okthnx209.121.127.164 (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC) Still needs work, and is written like a book209.121.127.164 (talk) 01:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Obituary:
There is an obit located here which has some brief biographical information mostly about this later years in Billings and Red Lodge as a deputy Sheriff and Constable: Fergus County argus. (Lewistown, Mont.), 14 Feb. 1900. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.14.254.25 (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

In addition here is a newspaper article about his leaving for the old soldiers home two months earlier:

Fergus County argus. (Lewistown, Mont.), 27 Dec. 1899. Chronicling America: Historic American Newspapers. Lib. of Congress.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.14.254.25 (talk) 16:27, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Other Scouts
I thinkit only fair to point out that the Indian Scout Frank Grouard offers a completely different account of how Johnson arrived by is name. It is plausible that Johnson and others liked to spin yarns and exaggerated the naming. Grouard, who was more famous than Liver Eating Johnson in his time, would have little reason to lie about this:

Online Google Book http://books.google.com/books?id=S174xWdgtkwC&dq=%22liver%20eating%22%20johnson&pg=PA67#v=onepage&q=%22liver%20eating%22%20johnson&f=false The Life and Adventures of Frank Grouard, Chief of Scouts, U.S.A. By Joseph De Barth

There is a chapter entitled "Liver Eating Johnson" and it states:

"There was one of these militiamen who afterwards became quite a notorious character, and is so at the present day, being known by the cognomen of " Liver Eating Johnson." At present he is marshal of Red Lodge, Montana. One day it was pretty hot, and an antelope came close to us. Johnson says :

"Wait a minute ; I will kill that antelope."

He shot at it four or five* times and missed it, and the antelope still stood there. That made him kind of hot, for he was a pretty good shot, and he says :

"I will eat your liver out if I do kill you," and he kept his word.

After he killed it he ate its liver. He was blood from one end to the other. That is how he got his name. Everybody called him "Liver Eating John son" after that. Huntley, I think it was, gave him the name." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.14.254.25 (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Overall Cleanup
The account of Johnson's life is totally unstructured, and after a lengthy summary of his life abruptly switches to "The above information is based upon the yarns and tales told over and over through the years. The accurate story is told...". If the 'accurate story' is right, it needs a citation. If the preceding information is right, it shouldn't be contradicted further down. If the particulars of Johnson's life are uncertain (which seems to be the case), the Biography section should point out that uncertainty instead of asserting contradictory narratives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.104.218.242 (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Go for it. I encourage you to make changes that will improve the article. Dlabtot (talk) 18:38, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

There is inconsistency throughout the article with the spelling of his name: the first half of the article mostly calls him "Johnson", the second half mostly calls him "Johnston" with a T. I don't knoiw which is more accurate, it seems that the sources use both names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.100.105 (talk) 15:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Now I should mention that most of these stories are probably bullcrap tall tales told by frontiersmen with nothing better to do.
Not exactly a ringing self-endorsement, is it? Anmccaff (talk) 01:24, 15 November 2017 (UTC)