Talk:Livonians

Number
Doubt about 235 Livonians in Ukraine! Puuce (talk) 13:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Text says 176 and infobox 177 Livonians live. And is there newer census than from 2000? Kuhlfürst (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There a two different things, I think: 1) Livs, the finno-ugric people described in the article; 2) Livonians, the whole people of the medieval Livonia (inkl. Germans, Latvians, Livs, Estonians etc.).

Last Population census in Latvia is from year 2000. But register of Office of Citizenship and Migrations Affairs 01.01.2009 says there are 178 Livonians in Latvia. Puuce (talk) 13:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Question re. number of Livonians. The infobox says 176 total number of Livonians. Then it goes on to say there are 235 in Latvia, but using a citation that refers to a Ukrainian census report? I think some research needs to be done on this number. --MacTire02 (talk) 19:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Livonians
(The editor who edit Livonian People please add: Livonians ( own ancient language name Randalists in the west or Kalamieds (Fishermans) in the east. Later Liivlists or Liivods.

Original Livonians were and are those Finno Ugric people who speaks Livonian language. Latgalles, Seelids and Semgalis, three Latvian speaking tribes, which become later united Latvians, and Baltic Germans in addition to Estonians living in Adminstrative Livonian Province, were not Livonians. There were about 70.000 Livonians in 1201 when Riga was founded. The war against the German Knights was a bloody one and when it finnished in 1206 the Livonians under their last tribal chief Kaupo become vassals of Livonian Brothers of the Sword and later in 1237 vassals to Teutonic Order. Since then their number decreased and in 1868 there were 1.600 Livonians left speaking Livonian language living in 12 villages along the Northern Coast of Courland. Three largest villages were: Iira, Ire (Irai) and Kuolka.

Other villages were: Luuz, Piza, Uudkula, Siigrog, Pitrog, Vaida, Säänog, Mellesille (Musta numm). There were two Livonian Lutherian Churches in Piza and Roja.

A small population of Livonians still live in Estonia around Ikla just inside Estonian border, few kilometres north of Heinäste (Ainazi), their main population center in Northern Livonia on the coast of Gulf of Liivi (Riga).

The Livonian inhabited villages north of River Väinä were: Koikyl, Erkyl, Lemsalo, Ulpish, Sarum, Ajas, Ierkul, Vellan, Kempe, Launekul, Sermus, Arras, Sujen, Nurmas, Allas.

West of River Väinä along the coast of Gulf of Liivi (Riga): Varkyl, Kaupe, Varkal, Tukkumi, Kile, Seppe, Laure, Ilman, Viesroje, Vesemuise, Kalve, Tule, Sakke, in addition of those 12 mentioned earlier.

Some more Livonian settlements are mentioned by Henricus the Lett in his Chronicle:

Askrad, Holm, Ikevalda, Immekyl, Kogelse, Kubesele, Lenevarde, Letegore, Meemekyl, Metsepoole, Raupa, Rodenpois, Salatsi, Sattesele, Toreida, Vendekyl, Vitisele, and Ykskyl (the main settlement of Livonians along Väinä River).

He also names some important Livonians from the period 1186-1217.

Ako, Livonian tribal chief from Holm. Alo, Livonian from Ykskyl, Anno, tribal chief from Toreida. Asso, one of the Livonian Olders from Toreida, Dobrel, the Livonian Older from Sattesele, Geweder, Livonian from Holm. Kaupo, the last Livonian "Tribal King". Kulewene, Livonian from Ykskyl. Kyrian, Livonian from Ykskyl. Layan, Livonian from Ykskyl, Lembewalde, Livonian from Holm. Ninnus, one of the Livonian Olders. Uldenago, Livonian from Holm. Uldewene, one of the Livonian Olders from Lenevarde. Wade, Livonian from Holm. Waldeko, Livonian from Holm. Wane, one of the Princes of Livonians. Vesike, one of the Livonian Olders. Viezo, Livonian from Ykskyl. Vietzo, Livonian from Holm. Viliendi, Livonian from Holm. Ylo, Livonian from Ykskyl. Ymaut, Livonian who killed Bishop Bertold. Ysso, Livonian from Ykskyl.

It may be worth of mention, that some Livonian traders lived in Kyva (Kijev) in 942. Their names are mentioned in the "Tax payers catalogue of Kyva (Kijev)".

JN

"Livonian" names in article actually Estonian ?
Article says river Daugava (Livonian: Väina), river Salaca (Livonian: Salatsi). I think both "Livonian" names here are actually Estonian, not Livonian ones. About Väina, modern Livonian language does not even have äi diphtong. Finnish päivä (day) and täi (louse) are 'pääva' and 'tei' in Livonian, Estonian täis (full) is tävž Livonian. Using these examples ad a vowel shift rule, Väina would become Vääna or Veina in Livonian. (Interestingly, Henry of Livonian mentions veina and Vääna is the name of Venta river in Courland, perhaps with similar etymology). The word itself, meaning strait of slow river is väin in Estonian and vēna in Livonian. Thing are more complicated because the Livonians living in Courland probably have forgotten the ancient name of river far away from them and called it Dīna after its German name. As a matter of fact, I am writing Livonian Wikipedia and am not quite sure how to call that river there.

About Salatsi, I think the Livonian name was actually Salats (Salaca), Salatsel (in Salaca).~ Warbola (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Prehistory conflicting
"These peoples (Uralic) later merged to the Balts and Finnic-tribes."

This sentence does not make sense. It refers to study which suggests that these Balts and Estonians were earlier one Finno-Ugric people. This should mean: there was no merge between Uralic and Finnic-tribes (when related to this study). Term "Uralic" is anyway too broad in this case. Also, as referred to this study, it should be - as I understand - "later the Balts merged to Finnic-tribes" or "later the Finnic-tribes merged the Balts". Although these, as the current also, are only correct when assuming Balt languages being formed before Indo-European migration to area. I suggest the paragraph should be fixed.

Speakers
Didn't the last native speaker die this year? It is marked as extinct on the Livonian language article. Needs updating with source. The Big Hoof! (talk) 12:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Evlekis.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:52, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Livonian flag folkhouse.JPG

Education introduction
Re: "Under the 17th Century Swedish Kings Gustav II Adolf and Charles XI, general elementary education was introduced" - was this for both boys AND girls? Acwilson9 (talk) 00:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

soviet repression section literally dont have any sources
please remove — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.175.220.255 (talk • contribs) 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Indigenous status?
Are Livonians considered an like the Sámi, Crimean Tatars, and Setos are? I thought this article was in the category before, but it doesn't seem it is now. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 05:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)