Talk:Lizbeth Webb

Lisbeth Webb's birth place and name
According to Lisbeth's birth certificate, she was born at 24 Hamilton Road, Reading on the 30th Jan 1926. Her name was recorded as Betty Ethel Holton, by her father Frederick Arthur Holton, her mother is recorded as Ethel Holton, late Strutt, formerly Vining. Her father's occupation is stated as Locomotive Engine Driver. The birth was registered at Reading (St Giles) 10th Feb 1926 by Charles Moss (Registrar), informant was F.A.Holton. (See FreeBMD, Reading Register Office, Vol. 2c Page 599)

I have altered this page three times now and my edit keeps being reversed, despite quoting exact detail taken from Lizbeth Webb's official U.K. birth registration (Certificate). There are numerous Family Trees created by serious amateur genealogists on Ancestry.com, most of whom are related to her, some have attached an image of a certified birth certificate. Certified copies of U.K. Birth Certificates can be obtained by anyone, simply by applying directly to Crown at THE GRO (General Register Office). I suggest you search FreeBMD to see if in fact there was a birth of an Elizabeth Holton or Elizabeth Sandra Holton anywhere in England in 1926. You will quickly find from an index search that there was NO SUCH PERSON born in 1926, only a Betty E Holton is recorded. And, if you send to The GRO for that certificate using the reference numbers indicated in the index, you will then know that this is in fact Lizbeth Webb. Whereas, there is no evidence for her birth name being "Elizabeth Sandra Holton" and simply stating that someone is happy with it is not evidence. In the U.K., a persons birth name is generally recognised as that given by their parent/s at first registration, that is a matter of indisputable public record and fact. Newcomber (talk) 17:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Her obituary in The Guardian says "Elizabeth Sandra Holton". Her son Rory, who supplied the image used in the article, did not mention that this was wrong.  I see the Birth Certificate you mention; I hope it is the same person.  I have written to Rory asking for confirmation.  You were absolutely wrong to WP:EDIT WAR.  You can be blocked from editing for such behavior.  The correct procedure, per WP:BRD, is to leave the article alone, once your edit is disputed, and instead make your case on the Talk page.  If you had done so, I would have reinstated your change. -- Ssilvers (talk) 10:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

If we are talking about a birth name here (which I assume we are), it can be quite different to what a person prefers to call themselves by the end of their life. It is my belief that Lizbeth's name must have changed several times throughout her life, Elizabeth Sandra was probably something she acquired after her mother passed away and she was living with her aunt and uncle, she certainly referred to herself as Betty S. Wills-Webb by 1945. However, you cannot escape the fact that there is no birth record for an Elizabeth Sandra Holton, only Betty Ethel Holton, as she was named by her father. Most databases regarding the peerage seem to reference her as Elizabeth Sandra Holton, but if nobody checks her actual birth record, these kinds of errors will simply be perpetuated. As far as my causing an edit war, please accept my apology, I am a complete novice here, but given the names of her parents and the lack of another Elizabeth or Betty Holton in Reading at that time, I'm confident I am correct and stand by my edit. The question is; does Wikikpedia want to reflect the facts, or does it want to perpetuate errors? As a genealogist I prefer to give people their birth name as their primary name so that it makes sense in their family tree, but also attach their adoptive names and family as a matter of supplementary fact. Newcomber (talk) 14:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree with your explanation of the names, and thank you for your measured remarks above, but you should understand why Wikipedia policy is designed the way it is. Our dispute resolution rules, in particular, are very carefully designed.  Let's pretend that you were a sloppy researcher, and you made exactly the same changes you did because you had seen (or been told about, or *thought* you had seen) a birth certificate that said so, or had seen a parody or altered document, or had mistaken a birth certificate from a person with a similar name, etc.  Our rules are intended to make sure that another editor can reverse that change easily and request an explanation and evidence on the Talk page.  It is the person who is making the change who needs to defend the change, not by simply changing it back (which is the problematic thing you did), but instead by making the argument on the Talk page and presenting their sources there.  Once you do this, then the other editors who watch the page can then review the evidence and, if they agree with the change, reinstate it.  But if it turns out that the change was mistaken, then they can explain why they are not making the change.  Then, if the person seeking the change still believes that they are correct, there are further dispute resolution procedures that can then be taken.  We do things step by step here. Please read WP:EDIT WAR, which gives a good explaination. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I have restored the correct birth name. I agree with Ssilvers comments above - it is always better to follow the WP:BRD procedure rather than edit-warring. Always take disputes to the Talk Page where issues can be resolved. Jack1956 (talk) 23:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed explanation of the rules. I must say that as a novice and only very occasional editor, the rules are very comprehensive and quite a lot to take in, more than a bit of a learning curve when you start late in the wiki calendar. Hopefully, this debate will reach a technically correct and agreeable resolution to the subject in hand. On this occasion I do understand that Lizbeth’s birth name is probably secondary to her other names, but at least if the article does contain her correct birth name somewhere then the correct details about her family line (bloodline) will be reflected on websites like Ancestry.com and Wikitree, where people do occasionally reference this website as their source. Newcomber (talk) 10:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * You really only need to know 3 rules to get started: WP:V, WP:UNDUE and WP:EDIT WAR. You already know how to discuss things on Talk pages, so you are ahead of the game. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for the useful tips. Newcomber (talk) 09:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Mother's maiden name
A further suggestion regarding the birth of Lizbeth Webb. Her mother's maiden name should be removed "nee Vining", although Lizbeth's mother Ethel gave her father's name as Cecil Vining upon her marriage to Lizbeth's father Frederick Arthur Holton in 1920, this is now known to be incorrect. I would suggest the removal of her maiden name, anyone wishing to know more about this should private message me? Newcomber (talk) 15:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * You say this is "known to be incorrect". Known how?  Can you give me the source, please?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi Ssilvers, it's a bit complicated and personal, can you please email me for answers? Sorry to be cryptic, haven't yet worked out how to email you, but hopefully I can email back? Newcomber (talk) 13:54, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's all right. If there's no public information about it, then I don't feel comfortable making the change. All the best. Others may follow up with you on it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:39, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Ssilvers, as you don’t appear to be accepting emails from other users I will give a brief account here. Lizbeth’s mother was born at 50 Plantation Road, Oxford. She was orphaned in 1909, ending up in a care home, after what must have been a very difficult childhood. Her maiden name was definitely not Vining, even though she said it was on several occasions, she was deliberately and somewhat understandably disguising her identity. Newcomber (talk) 09:57, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would love to make the change, but we need to cite a WP:Reliable source that states the information to be substituted. The fact that someone was orphaned in 1909, or that they felt ashamed of it during their lifetime, should hardly be a sensitive subject in 2020. -- Ssilvers (talk) 09:07, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The best I can offer to support Lizbeth's mother's real maiden name is to reference her birth certificate and baptism. Her birth was registered at the Headington registration District, Volume 3A, Page 880, 1st QTR 1895, where she was registered as Ethel Strutt. She was baptised on the 5th May 1895 at St Philip & St James's church in Oxford, her parents gave their names as Henry Cecil Strutt and Florence Letitia Strutt.  The baptism register states she was born 20 Feb 1895 and the family lived at 50 Plantation Street Oxford..  Vining appears to be a later fabrication, just who was in on it is anybodies guess, we can leave that to more detailed genealogy, as it's not really relevant to Lizbeth Webb personally. The surname Strutt is correct, but the forenames given by Ethel's parents are probably embroidered slightly.  Lizbeth's maternal great-grandfather is believed to have been a respectable Civil Servant in the admiralty. Newcomber (talk) 18:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I made the change and added a footnote. Let me know if I missed anything important. Best regards. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I would say you have made an excellent and thorough job of that, much better than I could do.  Lizbeth’s mother’s story is turning out to be quite interesting to us genealogists, if somewhat sad. Newcomber (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)