Talk:Loch

Is loch English?
Is the word loch English? Or Scots? Or what? When is its use appropriate in the English language version of Wikipedia? Eg Loch Ness seems appropriate because it is a formal title, but I am not sure about Loch Ness is a loch. Should it be Loch Ness is a lake? Laurel Bush 10:11, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's Scottish Standard English, therefore suitable for any article about a Scottish subject, just as one would use American English for a US article. Grinner 10:57, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean in terms of what language it is. The word itself is Gaelic, but is used by all Scots whether speaking Gaelic, Scots or English, and is used by everybody in names of lochs, places etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.71.145 (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

loch vs lough in pre-independance Eire
Out of interest, before the republic became independent, which spelling did maps reflect? Were they always spelled lough, or is the ubiquitous use of lough in the south an artifact of post-independance "irishification"? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:12, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I believe in Ireland a nearby loch or lough is often called 'the lake'. 'The loch' is more common in Scotland. Laurel Bush 15:43, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC).

Sea loch, fjord and firth
From the article: "... it is also used for the many fjords on the western and northern coasts ... sea lochs should not be confused with firths, found mainly on the east coast of Scotland ..."
 * I believe the word firth is closely related to fjord: its origin is Norse rather than Gaelic. The Cromarty Firth and the Beauly Firth look to me very much like sea lochs. Laurel Bush.

Article rewrite?
I am about to try a little rewrite of the article for the following reasons: Laurel Bush 12:16, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC).
 * Loch includes Sea loch but this is not immediately clear in the article itself.
 * The article should be primarily about loch and lough in English but effectively it confuses English with Scots and Hiberno-English.
 * The article uses firth as a link while being quite inconsistent with Firth as an article.

OK. Ive done the rewrite and Im thinking now that Lough should be a separate article. The word is difficult to treat as simply an Anglicised spelling of loch. Laurel Bush 16:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC).

Loch and Lough
See Talk:Lough.

I've just edited the page on lochs after using Google Earth: I was surprised to find that the inlets immediately around Pearl Harbour are named as lochs.

"English administration in Ireland"
When the spelling lough was introduced to Ireland the administration might have been English-speaking, but is it correct to describe it as just English, rather than, say, British or UK? Laurel Bush 28 June 2005 10:12 (UTC).

I came to this article trying to find an exact definition of the word "loch". Specifically, I wanted to find out if the word only referred to inlets of the sea (and would thus be marine), or if it could be used for bodies of water fed exclusively by runoff or rivers, which would make for a freshwater environment. In addition, is there a minimum or maximum size or depth, or a defining characteristic of the coastline which serves to set apart a loch from a lake?

Merge
This really should be merged with lough as there is no difference in physical characteristics or usage, except an national spelling difference. Is there even a pronounciation difference? We don't need two articles to describe the exact same thing. Rmhermen 15:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "We don't need two articles to describe the exact same thing." - plenty of these on Wikipedia. I favour the spelling "loch" as it is used in both Scotland and Ireland, although the "lough" spelling is more common in Irish English. --MacRusgail 20:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So lough is an English spelling: didna ken that, aye thought it was kinda Irish. Anyway, given the different locations and associations two articles seems best, but if enough people are desperate to merge then it should be into this, as the source name. Odds 68 to 23 + 18 = 31 in favour of Loch from the lists by my count, though the Loch list is obviously incomplete  .. dave souza, talk 00:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Usage differs. Lake district and estuary bed are often prefered over lough district and lough bed, but not over loch district and loch bed. Simpler, to my mind, to keep the two articles separate. Laurel Bush 10:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC).
 * Agreed generally, but hard to imagine a "loch district" - it'd be the whole of Scotland! Nearest I can think of is the Trossachs. ..dave souza, talk 10:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Lough is nothing more than a piece of anglicised gobledegook. The only proper version is the original Irish and Scottish Gaelic loch. Lough should of course be mentioned in the merged article but only briefly. I think we are spending far too much time on this. Precedence should be given to loch, I think. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 14:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

note from a newbie - I got here by looking up loch - I doubt many people would find this by way of lough - in the intrest of user friendliness I would suggest merging under the article name loch, and leave the entry lough with the comment :'see loch '

Sorry. I cant see newbie's note above as in anyway a reason for the proposed merger. Perhaps it needs some elaboration? Laurel Bush 09:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC).

You may merge it, but use the word Loch...

Just delete "Lough" is my current thinking. Is there there a single lough which is refered to as such, with "l" lower case? Strangford, perhaps. Laurel Bush 13:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC).

Maybe I am about ready to see "Lough" as a redirect to "Loch". Laurel Bush 09:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC).


 * Since it is the English WP, then Loch should redirect to Lough, which is the English version of the the Old Irish word Loch.

No. Loch is in long established use in English, for a class of entities (enlosed or semi-enclosed bodies of water) in Scotland. Lough is a name element, appearing in the names of bodies of water which are known, more generally, as lakes, sea inlets, an so on. Laurel Bush 14:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC).


 * I agree with Laurel, newbie, and 'An Muimhneach Machnamhach'. Loch definitely should not redirect to or be merged with lough. The Gaelic 'Loch' has been naturalised into English with a specific context, just as have thousands of other words, e.g. ukase, kindergarten, tortilla, stoop, crêpe.  'Lough' was/is a Chaucer-era anglicisation of 'loch', later imported into Ireland by the English invaders and now used affectedly or by people (like me til about five minutes ago) who think it's the Irish Gaelic spelling.


 * If anything, 'lough' should be made a footnote in this entry, since the standard words today are loch and lake. Katzenjammer 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Really, I think Loch and Lough are on a par with each other. They really are for wikidictionary. 86.42.141.109 22:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If loch is 'for Wikidictionary', then so is firth. Laurel Bush 09:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC).

Pronunciation of Loch
Shouldn't it be added that loch should be pronunced with a kind of gargling ch-sound, and not a k-sound? I have heard many english/american people saying "Lock Ness" and "Lock Lomond". I guess thath is wrong, isn't it? Th31 (talk) 20:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is covered under loch, but it's a good point and perhaps should be explained at the start of the lead section. . . dave souza, talk 20:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Added a wee bit at the start about the voiceless velar fricative (the gargling ch sound XD). Hanii (talk) 20:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Should the incorrect pronunciation really be listed as an alternative one? Pronouncing loch as 'lock' as opposed to the correct way is not so much an 'or' option as a wrong one. Would other articles have mispronounced foreign efforts listed as alternatives? Andrew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.71.145 (talk) 23:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it's incorrect.-MacRusgail (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The current IPA pronounciation help is a tautology: "Loch as in 'lie', 'body', 'loch'". Better change it to "the sound of snoring" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1205:C699:77D0:B918:2FEC:E55A:2077 (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

German
I think it should be at least mentioned that the German word Loch is pronounced the same way and means hole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.9.170.64 (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect Meaning
The article is flawed! A loch has a specific geological provenance; it is created by the terminal moraine from a glacier. It is for this reason that they are more prominent in Scotland, than England, which also separates them definably from a 'lake' that has no link to glaciation. The two are quite different. See the page on Ribbon lake for an expansion on how a loch is formed, although admittedly the language here is ambiguous, given that a Ribbon lake is described as a 'lake'. Simply put, if it is in Scotland and termed a loch, then it is the remnants of glaciation that has caused the feature to exist.MrReepicheep (talk) 01:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * So what about SEA Lochs?85.158.138.21 (talk) 10:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Merge with Lough
These two article both discuss the same idea with no consistent language, location or physical differences. No need to split the subject up. Rmhermen (talk) 16:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. Merge. There should be a sentence, paragraph or section detailing the differences in pronunciation and distribution between the mainly Scottish loch and mainly Irish lough, but to me the two words describe the same geographical features. --Wavehunter (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge. Seeing both "loch" and "lough" in the list of bodies of water was confusing and misleading, at least to me. DoorsAjar (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge and redirect lough to this article. "Loch" is the spelling of the word in both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. It's also the most common spelling of the word in English. "Lough" is usually only found in Ireland as part of englished placenames (for example, Lough Erne comes from the Irish Loch Éirne). ~Asarlaí 13:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge. Eric   Corbett  18:56, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Welsh Llwch
Can anyone suggest to me where I can find a source that states that Welsh llwch isn't the original derivation? Reading Insular Celtic languages, it seems that Insular Celtic was a common language area. I can't find a source that places llwch or loch before or after one another though. Felis Read   (talk) 13:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems, via this link that Old Breton is given as loch, and Breton as loc'h.


 * Breton derives from the Southwestern Brittonic languages, including Cornish, where there was some overlap with the Goidelic languages within the Insular Celtic language area.


 * Yet the Manx, that is also Goidelic, is given as logh. Was this an Anglicisation?


 * All that, however, doesn't seem to answer the question of whether loch or llwch is the original derivation.


 * Luch is given as Old Welsh, preceding llwch.


 * But I am hesitant to say where the reconstruction starts, and what theories the reconstruction is on the basis of. For instance, the question may be, what comes first? The Old Irish or the Old Welsh? Loch, or Luch?  Felis Read   (talk) 13:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I suppose another interesting question, if that is not answerable, is: did the Anglicisation of Crag Lough, and the like, in Northumberland (in modern day England, as well as other loughs in England) of the Old Welsh/Middle Welsh happen before or after the Anglicisation of the Old Irish loch in Ireland.  Felis Read   (talk) 14:32, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Or, and I presume this to be less probable, were these areas once the home of a Gaelic speaking population? Slight possibility because I understand the Scottish Kings once had a claim to the area.  Felis Read   (talk) 16:32, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

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