Talk:Loch Vennachar

Wreck Location
Loch Vennachar was wrecked at West Bay, on the extreme western point of Kangaroo Island. Whilst wreckage was found along the entire south coast of the Island, the ship's anchor was retrieved from West Bay, confirming the location. Loch Vennachar historic reserve is in fact the sea bed - previous descriptions of the location implied the reserve was land based.Browning ave (talk) 04:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have reinstated part of the paragraph that you deleted, as it has a reliable source/reference. Please see page 265 here. Spy007au (talk) 05:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The ABC on-line reference confirms that large amounts of wreckage from Loch Vennachar were found at West Bay, and that the bower anchor was raised from this location.202.6.148.237 (talk) 07:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have re-worded the paragraph to so that it is correct, but also keeps its historic value. Let me know if OK. Cheers, Spy007au (talk) 08:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That's spot on. Well done.Browning ave (talk) 04:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The ship's wreck actually lies just outside of West Bay (i.e. at the west face of the headland about 300 metres north of Vennachar Point) - this is evident when looking at the locality drawing in the SUHR's Loch Vennachar Expedition Report. The locality plan was prepared from the survey carried out by a guy named Bill Jeffery who was a surveyor at the time and who later became South Australia's first government maritime archaeologist. For the purpose of being an address for the wreck site, the use of West Bay is fine.Cowdy001 (talk) 13:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Upgrade of 13 August 2012

 * A new section entitled ‘Aftermath’ has been added - this describes the impetus of the wrecking on plans to built a lighthouse at Cape Du Couedie.
 * The section entitled ‘Present day’ has been edited to delete content concerning the National Estate because the Register of National Estate (RNE) no longer has any statutory significance (i.e. closed in 2007 and reference in legislation completely removed by February 2012 - refer http://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/places/rne/index.html, retrieved 13/08/2012). Now, the Register of the National Estate (RNE) only exists as an archive of information about more than 13,000 places throughout Australia.  A link to the Loch Vennachar content in the RNE archive has been placed in a new section ‘External Links’.
 * Section entitled ‘See also’ - removed Maritime archaeology as this is not directly relevant particularly as very little archaeological work has been conducted on this site since the SUHR expedition in 1977 and the recovery of the bower anchor in 1980 and Protected areas of Australia has been removed for the reasons discussed above.Cowdy001 (talk) 12:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

What is the source for the Crew list?
I had added one of these -  to the article within the section entitled 'Final Voyage.'  I compared the crew listing against 2 newspaper reports published both in SA (i.e. 'The Loss of the Loch Vennachar,' The Register (Adelaide, SA), Saturday 25 November 1905, page 6,, retrieved 17/08/2012.) & WA in 1905 that use the same British source to discover the following: Does anyone know what source was consulted to prepare the list?Cowdy001 (talk) 03:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There are 28 names in the list while there are 27 in the newspapers (the additional name is Charles Muir) and while the body of the article states 'She was carrying a crew of 26 (some reports say 27) and laden with general cargo and a consignment of 20,000 bricks.'
 * The list (of 28 names) has a lot more detail about the crew, i.e. full names, ages and place of abode (rather than town or county)
 * Probably from this site: http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=loch+vennachar Spy007au (talk) 04:03, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * With reference to the link you posted, I had a look at the following books of which 3 are in my own library:
 * Loch Vennachar expedition report - there is no crew list; the only crew member mentioned in the text is Tom Pearce,
 * Conservation of the Loch Vennachar anchor - apart from a brief mention on page 17 that there were 25 crew, there is no listing for the crew.
 * South Australian shipwrecks 1802-1989 : a data base - the entry on page 98 for Loch Vennachar only mentions the crew strength (i.e. 26). If you are interested, you can view this book at the following link -
 * S.S. Yongala : dive to the past - page 19 only mentions that there were 26 crew and the captain’s name.


 * I also revisited the newspapers of the day. Lists identical to that contained in the above-mentioned newspaper article (i.e. 'The Loss of the Loch Vennachar,' The Register (Adelaide, SA), Saturday 25 November 1905, page 6) were found in a Glasgow newspaper (i.e. Shipping Casualties: The Missing Ship Loch Vennachar - list of crew, The Glasgow Herald,  3 October 1905, page 8, retrieved 21/08/2012.) and a New Zealand newspaper (i.e. The Evening Post, Volume LXX, Issue 139, 9 December 1905, Page 12),  For convenience, let’s call this list the ‘British Mail’ list as per the source of the names mentioned in the newspaper article.


 * I found an article in an Adelaide newspaper (i.e. 'Crew and Passengers' in 'Wreckage on Kangaroo Island; Cargo and figurehead washed ashore; Is it the Loch Vennachar?,' The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA), Thursday 28 September 1905, page 7, retrieved 18/08/2012.) which lists 23 names including Charles Muir.  However, the article states that ‘no reliable details are obtainable as to the members of the crew, or whether she carried any passengers...' and that the list was compiled from letters awaiting for collection by the ship’s crew at the ship's agent in Adelaide (i.e. George Wills & Co.).  Let’s call this the ‘George Wills’ list.  A subsequent article was found in the Adelaide newspaper, The Register (i.e. 'Apprentices accounted for,' The Register (Adelaide, SA : 1901 - 1929), Tuesday 3 October 1905, page 5,, retrieved 23/08/2012.) advises that 2 persons are mentioned as not being on the Loch Vennachar despite their names being included on the ‘George Wills’ list.


 * While searching online, I found a possible source for the list of 28 names at the following site - http://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Crew-Profiles-of-Loch-Vennachar-270428727. All of the personal details for the crew in the article match those on this website.  The website also contains images of the newspaper articles that contain the ‘British Mail’ list and ‘George Wills’ list.  Unfortunately, there are no citations or references apart from the 2 newspaper articles and the death notice for sole South Australian crew member.  Cowdy001 (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I created this article some time ago, but I didn't add the list of crew members (they were added by others). If you can't find a reliable source for the names, I suggest we remove them. Cheers, Spy007au (talk) 12:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the prompt reply. From past experience, confirming who was on or not on a wrecked ship tends to be difficult.  At a later time, I will edit the list back to the 'British Mail' list, move the content re Tom Pearce to this part of the article and add some discussion about the sources of the information.  Cowdy001 (talk) 23:21, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree - that's the smart way forward. Cheers, Spy007au (talk) 09:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Section updated as discussed. I also found an article that lists the crew on the ship when she visited Adelaide in October 1904 (i.e. 'Crew last trip' in 'Is it the Loch Vennachar',  The Register (Adelaide, SA ), Friday 29 September 1905, page 5,, retrieved 25/08/2012.) - this includes the apprentices Brown & Thomson and the O.S. C. Muir.  It is possible that these 3 individuals (& possibly others) may not have passed on the details of their new ships to those who usually write to them.  Cowdy001 (talk) 02:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I just undid an edit (i.e. first names added to 5 of the crew) on the basis that no references were offered. Also, the editor had ignored the content of the section itself which explains that the list of names has been cited directly from a newspaper where the 5 crew member do not have full first names listed, only initials.  Cowdy001 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Section updated as discussed. I also found an article that lists the crew on the ship when she visited Adelaide in October 1904 (i.e. 'Crew last trip' in 'Is it the Loch Vennachar',  The Register (Adelaide, SA ), Friday 29 September 1905, page 5,, retrieved 25/08/2012.) - this includes the apprentices Brown & Thomson and the O.S. C. Muir.  It is possible that these 3 individuals (& possibly others) may not have passed on the details of their new ships to those who usually write to them.  Cowdy001 (talk) 02:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I just undid an edit (i.e. first names added to 5 of the crew) on the basis that no references were offered. Also, the editor had ignored the content of the section itself which explains that the list of names has been cited directly from a newspaper where the 5 crew member do not have full first names listed, only initials.  Cowdy001 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The Loch Vennachar Expedition
Two new sections have been added - the ‘Discovery of the wreck site’ and 'The Loch Vennachar Expedition'. The introductory paragraph has been edited to show the actual depth range of the wreck site, location being near West Bay rather than at West Bay and to locate the site in South Australia. The section ‘ Present Day’ has been amended as follows - A link ‘orphaned’ by editing has been added to ‘External Links’ Cowdy001 (talk) 12:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * the sentence re ‘Vennachar Point’ has been edited to remove reference as being KI’s most western point (as a study of various charts & online maps indicate this is not correct) and relocated to the section entitled ‘Aftermath’.
 * content re the relocation of the anchor to West Bay has been added.

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