Talk:Lock picking/Archive 1

Legal Status
This entire section is bogus and has no sources. Possession of a lockpick illegal in the U.S.? Well, then how do locksmiths legally possess them? Locksmithing doesn't require a license or background check. You can even get into it as a profession through home study correspondence courses.

Also, crowbars aren't illegal in the U.S.! You can buy a crow bar at any hardware store. You can even buy them at Home Depot online! Just do a search and see! Crowbars are used for removing nails and opening windows. Nearly all household hammers include a mini crowbar on the opposite end of their head.

Possession of crowbars can be considered burglary tools just as much as a screwdriver or a hammer. All one needs to do is find the intent of the person who is carrying them. IE, late at night dressed in dark clothing, suspect has prior history of burglary.

Possession of lockpick sets in California is restricted to Public Safety Persons and Locksmiths. Locksmiths have a license to possess lickpick sets. <<-- Untrue. Possesion in California is completely legal, and I have corrected that section with relevant cites to the penal code. Cosmos7 07:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The European Union part seems to be bugus too. First, all these things are NOT regulated on the Union level but by the individual Member Countries. Tipically, NOT the OWNER but the USER holds all criminal responsibility, when the owner MAY be involved in jurisdiction as an accomplice or witness. I made the correction. User:guest 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The UK section most certainly is nonsense, based on indirect imputations dating from 2006. I have therefore replaced them with a link to Section 25 of the Theft Act 1968, where subsection (1) states that carrying anything at all outside the home, from a bottle of water to cotton wool, with the intent of using it to commit a burglary or theft, is a criminal offence. Section 25(3) removes that provision in respect of items specifically made or adapted to be usable in burglary or theft: the mere possession is considered to imply intent. There is in fact a curious incoherence in the structure of the Section, in that because Subsection 3 is not a subhead of Subsection 1, it may perhaps be imputed that the exclusion of domiciliary possession does not extend to such items as lockpicks, which are clearly used for the unusual opening of locks, regardless of motive. On the other hand, it then means that anything else with less distinct normal use, such as a crowbar, can be kept at home with impunity, even if they are clearly intended to be used uniquely for burglary or theft, which is a peculiar anomaly! In general historic legal precedent, the Law cannot be used imputatively inside the home, as "the Englishman's home is his castle" (or in modern terms it becomes a constitutional infraction of his right to privacy), and that might be used to preclude prosecution of those engaged in hobby picking, as there is no baleful intent. But the Law is not clear, and on the basis of the principal of precaution, I have removed the suggestion that it is lawful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.25.40.112 (talk) 17:33, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

US State Laws
I found a good website that lists the legality of lockpicking and possessing lockpicks state by state. http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Legal_issues. i know wikipedia is restrictive about what can be added as an external link, but this website should be considered for this page. There are references on each state on the above web site. If this site is not added as an external link, then it's references could be used to support this section of this article, and also to expand the wikipedia article to cover all the states.--174.27.194.2 (talk) 02:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

was going to leave this for someone else to do, but realized that this article is hardly ever updated or edited, so i added the external link listed above myself.--174.27.194.2 (talk) 02:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Oregon law ORS 164.125 states that if you possess a "burglary tool" or "theft device" with intent to commit forcible entry it is a class A misdemeanor. "Burglary tools" includes lockpicks and crowbars as they are "adapted or designed for committing or facilitating a forcible entry". Simple possession is not a crime, you must have intent to commit a crime.

Arizona has a similar law, ARS as does Texas Texas Penal Code Title 4, 16.01.

I have not looked into other states. --Schwern 12:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Utah also has a similar law Utah Criminal Code Title 76 Chapter 06 Section 205 Possession is not a crime, you must have an intent to commit a crime. Just updated the reference to the Utah Code (link broken before). --75.169.69.96 (talk) 23:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Contrary to what seems to be a widespread belief on the web, possession in the District of Columbia also requires intent. I reworded the sentence regarding DC, and updated the reference with a link to the relevant statute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.12.36.123 (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I found the part in the Massachusetts legal code that references this subject. I'm not a lawyer, however, and I can't tell what it means in regards to lock picks. If someone could check it out and edit the entry, that would be awesome. I found it at Massachusetts General Laws Part IV Title I Chapter 266 Section 49. Shades97 (talk) 20:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In plain English, the production and possession of anything intended to be used to force entry into property with criminal intent is punished as described. It would, however, be an act of fine discrimination to extend it to lock-picking, as there is no force used which is clearly distinctive from the use of a key: a lock-picker simply operates the lock as it was designed to be operated, but more slowly and without the usual actuator, the key. Indeed, the way a key drives the pins upwards, most usually with the furthest tooth the most intrusive so the pins fall backwards as it passes, may be considered as more forcible than the subtlety of a pick! But the words of legalism are often somewhat different from their meaning in plain language, and the use of any force, however minor, would doubtless be considered as falling under this clause! So, in the language of that Law, "Whoever makes or mends, or begins to make or mend, or knowingly has in his possession, a lock pick designed for [...] forcing [...] open a building, room, vault, safe or other depository, [..]] to commit any [..] crime, knowing the same to be adapted and designed for the purpose [..], with intent to use or employ or allow the same to be used or employed for such purpose..." It does not extend to hobby picking, on the other hand, being entirely predicated on specific intent: it does not extend to forcing open a lock not securing a building! It does not, for instance, extend to a lock securing a PC inside a public building, or a medicine cabinet inside a pharmacy, or a filing cabinet inside a security facility, or any number of other possibly valuable and attractive objects. Doubtless other laws apply here, but the inimitable hand of Larsen E. Pettifogger seems to have been at work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.25.40.112 (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Laws in Downunder
Anyone mind telling me the laws about this in australia. Searched 2 legal sites and came up with zip.


 * owning or possessing lockpicking tools is legal is aus. but you can't use them for burglary (duh), sell them or buy them. so basically, if you are dedicated enough to make your own set, you can become a locksmith. --Carbonrodney 14:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It isn't illegal to buy or sell them either. Plenty of suppliers do so. The "legislation" quoted by the article is from the locksmiths guild. These guys make up tonnes of bullshit about legal issues just to push membership in their organisation. Their website outright states its illegal unless you're a member of their club. Absolute garbage.

--kronicd 11:02, 15 Semptember 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.174.71 (talk)

New Zealand
Does anyone think it's odd that not only does it not mention a fine in the link provided to the statute concerning possession of lock picking tools but that the fine is said to be 2000 "pounds"? New Zealand converted to dollars in 1967 THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED IMMEDIATELY!!!

Columbia
Does this mean Washington, D.C.? If it does, we should link to the statute in question. (And who refers to the nation's capital as "Columbia"? Everyone I know calls it "Washington", "D.C.", or "The District", though the latter is used only by insufferables.) jdb &#x274b; (talk) 21:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Im pretty sure its refering to D.C., but i left it be since i am unsure
 * Found a resource that does say "District of Columbia" on it as to the place it is illegal at, here, on question three where it asks if it's legal to carry lock picks. I'm going to edit the article to reflect that, and post the resource. Zeke


 * Seems to be missing from the article at this point? D.C is definitely a place where mere possession of picks is illegal. Take a look here: http://www.aloa.org/legislation/Leg_Map/ALOA_Map.htm

70.22.199.245 04:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * DC does NOT make simple possession illegal - it requires intent to commit a crime. I've changed the reference to link to the statutory language.  The aloa.org page you reference gives a link that says federal law prohibits possession, which is silly.  There is some federal statutory law forbidding using the US mail or other delivery service to deliver lockpicks across state lines to people who don't fit into some certain bona fide categories, however.  Also, some folks that call it the District are very sufferable.  Just not Craig T. Nelson.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.12.36.123 (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The backdoor idea of "lock pick possession laws"
Sure, these laws were established to inhibit illegal burglaring---but is this the whole story? I think it isn't. Because if you're not one of the being-all-fingers-and-thumbs kind of people, you can even help your neighbor to get back into their house if one of them locked themselves out. You get the idea? These laws are also established for ENSURING GOOD BUSINESS for the lock pickers who help you out of your misery. Because if you've successfully helped your neighbor to get back inside, you will probably not charge him more than one or two boxes of good beer for your work. However, if you are forced to use professional service, they might charge them $150 or (often) more. -andy 77.190.8.199 (talk) 11:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Category
Is this really considered a page? It's not about computers. Should the category be split? Does it matter? --unforgettableid | talk to me 21:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Tools
Why doesn't the lockpicking page have a section on lockpicks and how they are used? Is it just that nobody's gotten around to writing it up yet, or is there some objection to being more detailed? I'm sure there are people on Wiki more experienced than myself in this, but I could take a shot at a light overview. Wyvern 12:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Go for it. A light overview can always be edited later to fill in more detail. I can help with any diagrams if you like. Theresa Knott (ask the rotten) 12:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Added a section on tools still plenty of room for improvement though --67.76.182.11 04:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Torsion and Tension Wrenches
Why are there two separate paragraphs on these tools, aren't they exactly the same? 24.18.249.218 (talk) 02:51, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Improvements
Although i am generally impressed with the quality of Wikipedias pages, i cannot unfortunatly say the same about this one - the article is written in the same vein as the majority of most published material on the topic, containing some gross errors that i do not believe to be intentional and being heavily biased towards American terminolgy. Unfortunatly this disenfranchises a large section of your readership from comprehending the article. As a lecturer in lock picking and locksmithing in both the government and public sector, i would be happy to contribute to this article, being of the mind that such information is essential for informed decision and to promote greater ingenuity on the part of manufacturers. Unfortunately, as this is the first time i have entered this site, i have no idea how to proceed further. Should anyone be interested in my proposition, i would appreciate your help.Jwsa 16:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest you learn how to edit. http://www.mediawiki.com and the Firefox extension for wikipedia might be a good start. --Yoyoceramic 04:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Tone
"Then BAM! you will put the key into the lock and then the lock will open! It is an absolutly fantastic and fun skill to have, ecspecially if you are in a university setting."

This bit needs rephrasing, the tone is very unencyclopaedic. Shinobu 13:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Additionally, much of the article is written in the second person. Tagged for cleanup. -- J  Morgan (talk) 14:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The person that wrote the BAM bit contributed two major sections, both of which could use some heavy copy editing. Here are the diffs of the edits on the Pin Tumbler Locks and Key Impressioning sections. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lock_picking&diff=66099776&oldid=65245650 -- Phloopy 16:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was me. Sorry about that - I get super carried away when I talk about locksmithing.  I am an avid enthusiast (and a very skilled one at that).  Thanks for cleaning up after my mess. --Yoyoceramic 04:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice of import
A copy of this article was moved to wikibooks using the Import tool (with all revisions). If this article was marked for copy to wikibooks or as containing how-to sections, it can now be safely rewritten.

If contributors are interested in expanding on the practical information that was in this article, please do so on the wikibooks side. For pointers on writing wikibooks, see Wikibooks:Wikibooks for Wikipedians. -- SB_Johnny |talk|books 16:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia vs. Wikibooks
A lot of this article is written as an instruction guide for lock picking. While thorough and interesting, that type of information is not really fit for an encyclopedia. I would encourage enthusiasts of this topic to migrate the instructional information to Wikibooks, and place a link to it on the Wikipedia page. --RealGrouchy 15:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit Lock?
I don't see any padlocks signs on this article.

Why is the edit option been disabled for this article? Why the missing padlock?

88.105.76.145 (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Added the lock.--Hu12 (talk) 17:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED IMMEDIATELY!!!

New Zealand
New Zealand uses pounds? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.151.154 (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hack Value?
How does hack value have significance? It's not particularly necessary.

Supermonkey Jasonxu98 (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Sort of, actually. I'm not sure. Jasonxu98 (talk) 17:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Key impressioning
It's not really "lock picking", it's another separate thing. Ideally, there would be a separate article for it... opinions? Areldyb(talk - sign) 19:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, key impressioning is different from picking. Although it may be considered lock hacking. It should be referenced, but I don't think it should be gone into with detail. 138 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Given that key impressioning shares virtually no technique or tools in common with the actual act of lockpicking (save that both methods, if successful, will operate the lock), I see no reason for the topic to be addressed in the body of the article. Perhaps impressioning should have its own article, with a mention made in the related topics section of this article? 128.237.188.59 (talk) 10:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it definitely could benefit from a separate article as it is a totally different technique... Arachnowhat (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Locksport Reinstatement?
Why not reinstate the Locksport article(if that is possible after such a long time...though I can probably dig up the text) and link it to this page(and merge the TOOOL page)? Presumably that is a far more valuable use of space. Redirection of traffic from the Locksport page to another that is about a specific group of the locksporting community seems rather odd as well as having a ref to participating in this for "hack value" but no actual info about the community... Arachnowhat (talk) 10:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous
I can't believe there has ever been a lock which fires "spring loaded knives" at you. Electrocution is very hard to believe but possible (more like electric shock), but knives is just insane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buzzinowt (talk • contribs) 02:48, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

RFC: Locksmithing/picking Template
Hello. I have started a template to collect all the lock, key, and smithing terms together. Requesting feedback. User:Steveprutz/sandbox. StevePrutz (talk) 18:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Now at Locksmithing. Still need some organizational work. There are a lot of articles missing or needing to be split from Key/Lock articles. StevePrutz (talk) 22:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

In popular culture: shooting with a gun
The "In popular culture" section does not deal with shooting with a gun to the lock, as seen in a lot of movies. (A way that, I suppose, breaks the lock, preventing opening it, istead!) --80.181.226.112 (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

dubious claim
"the UK being an exception where lever locks are generally a requirement for home insurance" I call BS on this, I'm in the UK and when buying insurance there were some questions about lock types but no implication that a lever lock was a requirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.224.63.244 (talk) 02:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed that claim. -- Neil N  talk to me  03:27, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Lock bypassing
This is, strictly speaking, a lock bypass method, not a lock picking method. We should move it to an article on jimmying, if there ever is one. jdb &#x274b; (talk) 15:22, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there are many ways to open locks that aren't technically picking. Personally, I think we might as well keep the page as-is for now (with disclaimers as necessary), since the current text is neither large nor complete. Wyvern 12:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If anything, I feel that this article ought to be merged with the article that parented it (locksmithing) as it is for the most part a locksmithing practice... The locksport community (see toool.nl) generally does not concern itself with bypassing methods, while the locksmithing trade often practices it as a means to non-destructively open a lock. Wyvern makes a good point about the text being incomplete, but the trade industry (locksmiths) are generally not apt to share bypassing methods... I feel that a merge is best because it would fit the brevity of the article best, while not leaving incentive for someone to add how-too's to it (which could result in theft) --Davou 04:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Car locks
Car locks can sometimes be opened by slipping a metal ruler that has had its end cut into a hook shape (a slim Jim), down the front of a car window (in between the rubber). The ruler is manipulated until the lock cable is caught on the hook. Pulling the cable up will open the door. On modern cars, however, this technique could easily damage the electrical wiring that controls the door locks or windows, so "slim jims" are usually inserted from the passenger side, to avoid the large amounts of wiring that are installed on the driver's door.

Padlock shim?
This article mentions a "padlock shim" but doesn't explain what it is. Can anyone fill me in?

Also, what is it called when a person makes an impression of a key on to some moldable substance (like playdoh) and somehow makes a key from that? Liz Read! Talk! 03:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Key impressioningPieisablessing2me (talk) 17:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Bump Keys
Bumps keys is a larg security issue because of its simplicity and its high functionality, wich open certain type of locks without damaging them. The Open Organisation of Lockpickers (TOOOL) puplished a descriptive Paper on it already in 2005 (http://www.toool.nl/bumping.pdf) and additionally talks and videos on this specific technique to prevent Security through obscurity, also describing locks that are "Bump Proof" and why.

With help of a video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WexoP5ZDWgg) and similar sites (newsweek, digg, ...) this Topic has become quite popular in these days and may have a effect finnaly in the puplic. Even when this is known for years by the industry. RobertSt 19:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article from ALOA: Bumpkeys.PDF. Dan D. Ric 21:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To quote a small section: "Initially the individuals who promoted this information to the press may have been making what ALOA perceives as a mis-guided attempt at consumer awareness. They gave the impression that opening locks by Key Bumping was a wide-spread problem. It certainly has not been a method used by most burglars for many reasons. However, now that this method of opening some locks has become a popular theme, the most probable effect will be to stimulate the interest of would-be burglars to attempt to Bump Open locks!" Bumpkeys.PDF. Dan D. Ric 22:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

-Problems with bumping: To successfully bump a lock, you need to have a key that will fit the lock. With so many key designs out there, a person using bumping will need to have thousands of specially modified "bump keys." It is quite easy to make locks unbumpable. If you put a ball bearing on the top of each pin, the ball bearing absorbs the shock and keeps the pins from staying at the sheer line. Companies like Medeco have already caught onto putting objects such as these into their locks to prevent this kind of thing. Finally, it damages the lock. The impact can dent the keyway, making it impossible to get the real key back in. This leaves a trace, making the problem of insurance companies not paying for "no traces of burglary." They were also featured on local news stations where they would inadvertantly teach you how to use, make, and buy bump keys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.9.251 (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Thousands" of keys? That seems farfetched. Bumping also seems noisy.  The only really good use would be on your own lock when you've lost the key.  This method is not good for criminals or renters.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.65.143 (talk) 19:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

What are pick guns?
"Pick gun" redirects to this page, and the term appears offhand once, but there is no explanation of what it is (the whole reason I ended up on this article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.92.16 (talk) 08:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

A pick gun is a mechanism that has a metal rod or "pick", a trigger and a handle. What it does is a rod is connected inside the gun, and when the trigger is pulled, the rod shifts and vibrates to set the pins above the shear line. Sometimes the results are instantaneous and open the lock in one trigger pull but usually take 2-3 pulls to set the pins. You need a license by the State of Utah to have these in Utah of course. I am not aware of other state laws regarding pick guns, but if you get caught in Utah with one and not being registered to it, you can face a prison sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.9.251 (talk) 23:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, lock-picking hobbyists consider the pick guns as "total buzz-killers" because the gun itself takes the puzzle-solving element of lock-picking out of the equation. And I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.9.251 (talk) 23:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Other types of Lock Pick
Would it be better to categorise "tools" as "Pin tumbler picks" and then have several other sections for other types of lock pics, such as lever lock picks,  disc lock picks and other methods? If no one objects, I will have a go at re-orginizing this page - for example snap gun should fall under the same category as raking, bump keys etc. whereas warded picks should have its own cateogory as it is for a completely different type of lock!!? Willh26 (talk) 20:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Trim and tidy
I've just trimmed things up a bit. Mostly WP:NOTGUIDE or WP:OR stuff. Snori (talk) 08:52, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Snap gun
I have proposed that Snap gun should be merged with Lock picking, as the snap gun is one of many lock picking methods and should probably be moved here? A lot of the content on snap gun is similar to the stuff on the snap gun section on lock picking Willh26 (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Lock bumping
I have suggested that Lock bumping (also known as bump keys) be merged with the lock picking article as there is not much to expand on them - and I can't see it ever being expanded further in the future. Willh26 (talk) 14:35, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Torque wrench
As far as i understood, the torque wrench applies torque to the cilinder as if it was a key ( meaning, try to rotate clockwise ) however, this is not described in the text, nor in the diagram. If I am indeed right, I can add another view to make the diagram clear ( and i suggest tha someone such do it in the text )

Lockpick types
Please someone to put the pictures to the each lockpick type? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.133.78 (talk) 18:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: I have added a few pictures of the types of lock picks, I will continue to add more as I edit the page. I need to photograph some more of my own picks when I get home! Willh26 (talk) 22:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Update on pictures - I am going to photograph a half diamond, ball, and various other picks for each section of the lock picking page. Willh26 (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Unnecessary Photos
I have removed the following photos off the page because I feel they do not help in illustrating the point of lock picking, for example the "umbrella lock pick" means nothing to someone else who does not have a clue in locksmithing! They are probably better of in Wikibooks!! Willh26 (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Removed files:
 * File:1 lockpick umbrella tiirikka valmistettu sateenvarjosta.JPG
 * File:IDET2007 lock picking device.jpg

Tubular lock pick
Again like my other proposals, this article is short and there is not much content on it, nor can it really be expanded. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia so I think this probably belongs categorised under the lock picking article. Any complex details into lock picking should be included in the Locksmithing Wikibooks. Willh26 (talk) 14:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

✅ I have merged the page into a sub section of pin tumbler lock picking, as a tubular pin tumbler locks are technically the same type of mechanism Willh26 (talk) 21:31, 22 March 2016 (UTC)