Talk:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II/Archive 2

Yak-41
I removed this section until it can be substantiated:


 * The JSF (F-35) design is based on the soviet Yakovlev-41 supersonic, VTOL naval fighter-bomber plane. The blueprints were sold by the cash-strapped Yakovlev bureau in the early 90's. The USA refined the plans previously made by Yakovlev for a land-based STOL variant dubbed Yak-141 into the F-35. The soviet's two small vertical lift jet engines were thrown out, while Rolls-Royce developed a new powerplant, based on the soviet swiveling-tailpipe design, which could also spin a large, horizontal central fan for cold lift thrust. Other than that, the Yak-141 shape changed relatively little, mostly to boost stealth capabilities and incorporate hidden weapons bays. Internally a lot has been changed, but structurally and with regards to electronics, the plane was essentially redesigned. -Joseph (Talk) 19:53, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)

The above indeed is inaccurate. It should say that Yak-141 inspired the F-35, since they are two completely different aircrafts. I found something on the JSF official website:


 * The exhaust from the engine flows through the 3 Bearing Swivel Nozzle (3BSN). The 3BSN nozzle, developed by Rolls-Royce, was patterned along the lines of the exhaust system on the Yakovlev Yak-141 STOVL prototype that flew at the 1992 Farnborough air show. A US Navy program also developed swivel nozzles in the late 1960's and was proposed for a supersonic STOVL design by Convair (one of the Lockheed Martin heritage companies) in the early 1970's. (JSF Concept) Jigen III

Thanks for removing that fanboy tripe about the F-35 being based on the Yak-141. Lockheed purchased Yakovlev's lift fan performance data and nothing more.


 * It is a matter of fact that F-35 is much as "Yakovlesky", as the Tu-144 was "Konkordsky". Since Lockhead did pay the russkies hard cash for all the blueprints, technology and mock-ups they got, I see no problem admitting it, apart form shattering the yankees' sense of exceptionless technological superiorty. The Yak-41/141 connection should be definitely mentioned in the article, because its entire omission is definitely biased! 195.70.32.136 10:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Yak-141 is an airplane and a quick look shows that the F-35 clearly is not derived from it. Lockheed purchased information from Yakovlev to gain insights on its lift fan technology - not the whole aircraft design. Any good design engineering team is going to look at available "lessons learned" from the past, partly so that they don't "reinvent the wheel" and partly to see if there are specific innovations that might apply - or be further developed - to satisfy the demands at hand. I'm sure that Yakovlev's approach with Yak-41/141 wasn't the only approach studied, especially since its partner BAE Systems has considerable expertise with VTOL and STOVL propulsion systems. Moreover, the Lockheed engineers inherited a fair amount of expertise themselves through their GD/Convair heritage. Just how much the F-35 benefited from the Yak-141 information I don't know, but probably quite little (and I do not say that to disparage Russian technological capabilities). Otherwise, they might have funded Yakovlev to further develop or modify it (since US-Russian relations were much better then than they are now). Askari Mark | Talk 22:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Overall Costs
Perhaps there should be a section on overall costs, similair to the paragraph on partnership levels, but including the US' share? —Aiden 20:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

American Contribution
''The primary customers are the armed forces of the United States (USAF, USN, and USMC) and the United Kingdom (RAF and RN). There are three levels of international participation for the eight countries contributing to the program. The United Kingdom is the sole level I partner, contributing a little over $2 billion. Level II partners are Italy and the Netherlands, contributing $1 billion and $800 million respectively. At level III are Turkey ($175 million), Australia ($144 million), Norway ($122 million), Denmark ($110 million), and Canada ($100 million)''

Where in the article does it mention how much the US has invested in the project? - Hayter 12:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is the industrial partner website. It says that the UKs contribution is approx 10% of development costs. Other partners contribute, in total, approximately another 15%. Which leaves the US carrying the can for 75%. Do the maths and you have the US dollar figure. Of course, the figures are now no longer accurate due to cost overruns and financial juggling.--Phillip Fung 01:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sequence
Is it valid to place the F-21 in the sequence section? I mean, it's not a US aircraft. Equinoxe 17:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's part of the designation sequence since it was adopted by the US armed forces as an aggressor aircraft and thus dubbed the F-21 by them. Joffeloff 20:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense speculation about F-24
An anon keeps reinserting a mix of speculation and original research about the missing F-24 designation into the intro. I've deleted this dubious info as it lacks citation, and even if it were true, it would not belong in the intro. --Mmx1 04:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Missing numbers" in the designation sequence do not necessarily mean anything. There is no requirement that each and every one be assigned. (Anyone really think there was an 'F-13' fighter?) The speculated F-24 could represent a YF concept that did not "get off the ground," or perhaps was reserved for the proposed naval version of the F-22, or simply skipped for a variety of reasons (such as some Pentagon general simply liking "F-35" better than "F-24"). Who knows? Without a reliable citation, the best that can be said is that many people expected the JSF to be designated "F-24" and were surprised when "F-35" was assigned instead. Jgarth's explanation below makes sense to me. Askari Mark | Talk 22:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

JSF Price: $82M Per Plane
Here is a quote:


 * The cost of the U.S. F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program has risen to $82.1 million, enough to require the Pentagon to notify Congress, which it has done, according to Air Force officials. Surging material costs, especially for aluminum and titanium; the addition of another wing production line in Italy; and program restructuring are to blame, according to Air Force sources. The price tag for a single JSF has risen by 33 percent since 2001, when the average plane cost $61.8 million, the sources said.

What about the total cost, you ask:


 * In a quarterly "selected acquisition report," Pentagon analysts now estimate that it will cost $276.5 billion to develop three versions of the F-35 and build about 2,400 of the planes for the Air Force, Navy and Marines. That's up from the $256 billion figure last given for the program.

--DelftUser

Skipping the F-24 thru F-34 Designation
It's still unclear why the DoD [The designation "F-35" was chosen at the Department of Defense level;] skipped eleven sequential numbers. Other stealth planes? This seems an important factoid. Clues? Hints? Rumors? --Robertkeller 00:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * An idea-- maybe the DoD didn't want a series of "F" planes whose designations run concurrent with the (then) current and well-known crop of Russian MiG fighters. You would have been getting "F-27" and "F-29" in the scheme, possibly causing confusion.


 * The reason it was named the F-35 stems from the Concept Definition Phase; where the Boeing and Lockheed demonstrators were both assigned "X"-designations. The rationale for designating the demonstrators as [X-Planes] rather than giving them the usual Y-designation (eg. like the YF-22 and YF-16) was that the prototypes were pioneering an advanced technology, ie. an integrated vertical lift system.  When the X-35 won the fly-off competition; it seemed natural to the Department of Defence to officially re-designate it as the F-35.   Jgarth 04:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Confusing
I added the confusing tag to the Analysis of the Program section. This section begins with one long run on sentence and I am not entiry sure where a thouhgt begins or ends. Sir hugo 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)



The F-22 is better get with the times man!
the F-22 has supercruise and stealth capabilitys whats the JSF got?? Plus the F-22 has internal weapons storage. Wheres your messiah now ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by F 22 (talk • contribs)


 * Sadly you have bought the F-22 "smoke and missors" campaign that wows the public with irrelevant capabilities to make you miss the obvious shortcomings such as ACTUAL RANGE instead of some heavily caveated statistic like "supersonic range"...who gives a darn if you can't get to the fight or can't stay on station when you get there?


 * Are you a stealth expert? Do you know the per centages of stealth "reductions?" Who choses the basis for stealth comparison for tactical relevancy?  How much stealth is needed to do the job?  What frequency spectrums are important?  What is the reliability and maintainability of the stealth?  If you can't answer these questions, then you shouldn't be making a recommendation!


 * The JSF is a strike aircraft and is designed to be one. The F-22's bomb-carriage and bomb-dropping capabilites pale in comparison to the JSF F-35.  Try comparing relevant capabilities.  Ask yourself what capability is more relevant today -- shooting down an advanced fighter or flying a long way to drop many accurate weapons??  Oh yeah...don't forget to factor in cost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.57.213 (talk • contribs)

look mate. The f 22 is the best jet/bomber fighter in the world! There is nothing that can compair to the awesome power of the raptor! Do you even know what supercruise is! I dont think you do. You are saying that being able to travel a 1.6 mach or over. with useing after burners is worthless. You say the raptor dosnt have range what about supercruise mate. why dosnt the great Jsf have it them! The jsf dosnt even exist yet and people are all ready saying its our messiah. It may be cheaper now but it will go up will the raptor goes down.

The F 22 has the ability of stealth. And yes stealth is easy to maintain mate! seven f 22s took on 35 F-15s and the F-22s didnt suffer a single loss, because of their stealth and you call stealth worthless. It is estimated that the F-22 could take 15 su-35 fighters on and win. The JSF is all talk and no action while the raptor is action!!!!!!!!!!

The F-22 has internal weapons storage how can that be bad! Also how do we know whats going to happen in the future. Who knows we might go to war with a nation with good fighters. Stop trying to predict the future, and buy the F-22 raptor!

Anyway who wants a single engine aircraft? Not me. Not even Albania! Performance


 * This may be true but the F-22 lacks the capability to drop gravity aided nuclear weapons, whereas the JSF can. This function will become more and more important in the future.

The F-22 cant even take off/land on a Short runway (STOL)! This function will be essential for the new carriers like the CVN-80.


 * No, the awesome power of the raptor is nothing compared with the awesome power of Chuck Norris. --Mmx1 17:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing this whole section is a joke? "Anyway who wants a single engine aircraft? Not me.  Not even Albania!"? Eh, the United States, to the tune of 3,000 aircraft. Also purchased 1 or 2 F-16s!!! Keep your feet on the ground folks. Mark83 19:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

any way, who cares about these advanced aircraft, if it can get shot down by militas with AK-47's!! who are they realy intended to fight? China? Europe? the middle east dosent really have the "Defence" technologie to justify such an aircraft?

If you ladies would like to shut up, and stop whining, go and look at this, an non bias comparison of the f-22 vs the f-35.

Guess what you dumbs, how can you compare an Air Superity fighter with a Multi-role fighter. Its like comparing an apple with a clock. What you can compare is the effectiveness of the F-22s air-to-air combat with the F-35s air-to-air combat etc. You can't compare the two fighters as a whole though...And just to make this clear, F-35 has stealth capabilities too. It nearly matches the F-22s stealth, just look at the shape. Most of the F-35s tech is from the F-22. Its engine is supposed to be better than the F-22s. AND YOU NEVER KNOW, JUST WAIT AND SEE UNTIL THE F-35 IS UP IN THE AIR BATTLING OTHER FIGHTERS. THEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY COMPARE IT. --Jaewonnie (talk) 20:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

F-22
Maximum speed: >Mach 2.42, 1,600 mph (2570 km/h) at high altitude Cruise speed: >Mach 1.72, 1,140 mph (1830 km/h) at high altitude Range: ferry 2,000 mi (3200 km) Service ceiling: >50,000 ft USAF, 60,000 ft Boeing (>15 000 m, 18 000 m) Rate of climb: ft/min[3] (m/s) Wing loading: 96 lb/ft² (470 kg/m²) Thrust/weight: 1.3~1.41 Maximum g-load: 9.5 g

F-15
Maximum speed: >Mach 2.54...

Speed ain't everything. Oh, and nice dragon comment...Winstonwolfe 07:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

JSF
Performance Maximum speed: Mach 1.6 (1,200 mph, 2000 km/h) Cruise speed: Mach (mph, km/h) Range: 620 miles (1000 km) Service ceiling: 48,000 ft (15 000 m) Rate of climb: 40,000 ft/min[15] (200 m/s) Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²) Thrust/weight: 0.88

in your face JSF viva F-22

This may be true but the F-22 lacks the capability to drop gravity aided nuclear weapons, whereas the JSF can.


 * Look, you just cant compair the Two, the F-22 is an inteceptor/ figther aircraft and the F-35 is a multirole aircraft. Anyway, a dragon is better than them both. And my messiah is in a turtel. DAMN YOU LEGESLATIVE ASSEMBLY!

Dfrg.msc 07:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we get some information on which nuclear weapons the F-35 can carry? I'd assume the B-61, but can it also carry the much more important B83? This is getting to be a pretty important matter as of late.Monty2 01:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree Monty, one of the main factors to being a multirole-aircraft is that it can drop gravity aided nuclear Weapons, so we should try to find some informaion on that. Dfrg.msc 22:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree, Nuclear weaponry has no tactical value whatsoever, Its primary use is more of a fear factor/shock and awe technique. Besides the fact that the B83 has the F-22 listed as a carrier. I really don't think the f-35 should replace the A-10 either, sure it's a decent replacement for the f-16 as a cheap, dogfighting, export aircraft, and adds variety with the loss of the f-14s. But it can't quite compare to the A-10's suppression and close combat abilities, not to mention the A-10's durability or reputation among enemies. Plus the f-35 doesn't appear to have the all weather and sensory capabilities of the F-15E Strike Eagle or the usefulness of the the F-18E/F Super Hornet. More of a cross between the two. F-18E/F + F-15 = F-35.


 * While the A-10 is an excellent aircraft it has this nasty bug where it seems to spend as much time shooting at allied forces as it does at the enemy. Hopefully they will install some kind of see-through windsheild on the F-35 or maybee train the pilots that British APCs are not enemy units. Dellarb 14:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You're kidding right? Yes there have been friendly fire incidents, but when you are working so close to friendly forces, accidents in close air support do happen. Friendly fire deaths are not even close to the casualties the A-10 has inflicted on enemy forces. See also: "Other Parachute Regiment officers had told him they prefer to call in American A-10 Tankbusters for air support when under fire because of what they see as the RAF's ineffectiveness, he added."BBC 22 September 2006 They wouldn't prefer it if they were afraid it would kill them. --Dual Freq 14:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * While what i said was partly a joke the A-10 does have a bad rep. While this may be due to its role i can think of one incident where it fired on a vehicle with a large british flag painted on the side that was facing the aircraft. It is probably more a reflection on pilots, who likely want action that just is not there in low intensity conflicts like Iraq however. Dellarb 14:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And how many British forces would be dead if an A-10 had not destroyed the enemy forces they were called in to destroy? How big does that flag look to an aircraft going 180+ kts at a few thousand meters range? Is the JSF's higher speed going to cause more deaths? All aircraft involved in close support have fratricide incidents, the A-10 is involved in much more CAS than other A/C, so it stands to reason they would have the most accidents. Bad rep? Maybe a bad rap. --Dual Freq 15:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And that's why every army except the US uses helicopters for close air support. - Dammit 16:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, yes, you're right about that. Everyone one knows about those high-speed jets the US Army uses, the AH-64 Apache. - BillCJ 17:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Note the smiley. Fratricide incidents are mostly the result of doctrines, not of the weapon used. The Dutch F-16's and Apaches in Afghanistan have had no fratricide incidents, despite being called to action on a daily basis. - Dammit 17:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I had noted it :) Fratricide is the result of an unfortunate series of events leading to a tragic accident. Given enough time to compensate for the numbers difference, the Netherlanders will make mistakes too. Mistakes happen; it's a sad fact of war. Yes, there are usually things that, if done correctly, would have prevented the incident.


 * In truth, the USAF needs to grow up, and allow the Army to operate its own CAS aircraft (A-10 type), out of its own budget. The Army has no interest in taking on other roles beyond CAS, and the Air Force really doesn't want to do it if it means having slow, specialized attack planes. Fast-movers have been ineffective at CAS in the past, and precision weapons don't give a long loiter time, something which an effective CAS plane must have. This is what the A-10 was developed for, and what it's best at. Sure, it's not perfect, but the A-10C precision upgrade sould go a long way toward improving accuracy. - BillCJ 18:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't take this the wrong way, but according to Afghanistan_War_order_of_battle 6 F-16's and 6 Apaches are included in the OOB. Unfortunately one of those F-16's was lost in August 2006. Numbers of sorties is a factor in combat losses and fratricide and as mentioned above, its only a matter of time until they have a fratricide incident too. According to James Dunnigan's blog in Jan 2006, A-10s average around 18 sorties per day (each nearly four hours long). I'd expect that the A-10 CAS sorties per day greatly exceeds the Dutch F-16 sorties per day. That said, I'm sure that the Dutch presence has saved many coalition lives and is greatly appreciated by coalition ground forces. I also agree that the Army should operate CAS aircraft just as the USMC operates their own aircraft for CAS. --Dual Freq 19:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually there are currently 8 Dutch F-16's there and your own source states that "fact, most of the sorties are scouting missions" and "Several times a month, an A-10 will be called on to apply some precision firepower with it’s 30mm cannon". Although I'm sure there are way more than 8 A-10's in Afghanistan I also think that the US aircraft are less careful than its coalition partners. How the hell did we end up discussing Dutch F-16's from someone yelling viva F-22, maybe we should put an end to the discussion. - Dammit 20:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The discussion was about A-10 fratricide, which some wag had brought up 4 months after the comment that the A-10 was better than the JSF in CAS. Oh, and you mentioned the Dutch F-16s :) - BillCJ 21:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Naming
On 7 July 2006, the Air Force announced the official name of the JSF as the Lightning II. As such, I have taken the liberty of moving the page and adding a little bit of information about the naming. (Personally, I wish they had gone with Phoenix or Kestrel.) Sertrel 17:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed a few redirects and some articles into the new name. Joffeloff 17:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Kestrel had already been used on the Hawker Siddeley Kestrel, the evaluation prototypes of the Harrier, so it would have been Kestrel II. GraemeLeggett 09:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems the F-22 Raptor's prototypes (YF-22) also carried the preliminary name "Lightning II". I edited that article the other day. --Charles Gaudette 18:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The way it reads now, it almost sounds like the U.S. Air Force decided the name "Lightning II". Anyone have a reference to the body (perhaps the U.S. Department of Defense) that actually did the act of naming the aircraft? --Charles Gaudette 06:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed the wording to show that the USAF announced the name (not named it) and added a link to the official press release.Sir hugo 13:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just read the release - rather overblown. Rather overlooked the EEL's poor fuel record too, but that wouldn't have looked good in a release. GraemeLeggett 13:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the P-38 Lightning article, it seems that "Lightning II" was actually the British name of a P-38 variant; so technically, wouldn't that mean that it should be the "Lightning II" in the US and "Lightning III" on the other side of the pond? (Then again, they had their own separate English Electric Lightning, with no numeration, so maybe not. Sertrel 17:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. I suspect that the F-35 will be initially referred to as the 'Lightning FGR.1' or something similar in British service. Subsequent revisions will be FGR.2, FGR.3, etc. &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 17:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * FGR? Sertrel 19:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Fighter-Ground (attack)-Reconnaissance. GraemeLeggett 20:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

surely they would enter a letter refering to its fleet defence role? or mabye the RN will give a seperate name refering for their requirements of the aircraft? yerkschmerk 12:56, 30 september 2006
 * The P-38 article was incorrect. The non-turbo version of the P-322 was known as the Lightning Mk.I, and the turbo version was the Lightning Mk.II-- not "Lightning I" and "Lightning II".

Is it just me, or are aircraft corporations getting more and more nostalgic? The A-10 Thunderbolt II was a nod to the P-47, the YF-23 Black Widow II was a tribute to the P-61 and now this tribute to the P-38. These aircraft guys seem to be a pretty sentimental bunch. Or maybe they're just running out of names and after 60 years, they all thought it was time for tributes. Just struck me as curious. -- § Hurricane E  RIC § archive 04:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you mean "marketing instead of "nostalgia." &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 05:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually the "customer" — the DoD — picks the ultimate name (although the builder gets to offer suggestions). Askari Mark (Talk) 00:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent in-depth review of JSF in Flight International
The latest edition of Flight International contains an excellent write-up of the current status of the JSF program; and contains a high-resolution threeview drawing of all three variants: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/06/28/207482/First+strike+Flight+International+JSF+special.html When someone gets the time, it would be worth updating this article to incorporate information from the Flight article; including advanced manufacturing processes; global participation; flight test plans, etc. Jgarth 04:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, The Star Telegram has published a good summary timeline and poster chart. This is probably worth incorporating as a reference: http://www.dfw.com/multimedia/dfw/JSFposterweb.pdf  Jgarth 16:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Transportation of parts
BAE are building large sections of every plane in the UK and then shipping them to Lockheed for assembly. Does anyone know how? Are they put in containers or flown? Mark83 18:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thunderbird F-35's?
Because the USAF is replacing the F-16 Fighting Falcon/Viper with the F-35 will the USAF also swap out the current Thunderbird F-16's with new F-35's?


 * The F-16s they have now were acquired 4 years after the jet was introduced. And the Blue Angels didn't get their Hornets until 3 years after its production. Based on that, I don't think it'll be immediate. And you also have to consider if the F-35 is the aircraft they want when it comes time to replace their Falcons. There could be another aircraft around in the future. 205.174.22.28 04:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

-Future manned fighter-types are going to be few and far between. Since large fighters like the F-22 are not suited to Thunderbirds duty, the Lightning II (or perhaps a low-cost trainer) is it.

USA Contribution?
Reading through the initial portions of the article (regarding contributions from various countries) I was left somewhat confused. It says that the UK is the only tier 1 partner, contributing 2 billion etc. No mention here of the USA or the USA's contribution, unless that's the partner that they are referring to (as opposed to the other partners (ie countries)). I can't believe they haven't contributed anything towards it, and yet no figure is mentioned that I can find. T h e M a v e r i c k 06:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose you could say that it is implicit that any responsibilities or workshare not mentioned are that of the U.S., since they are obviously the coordinating nation. &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 06:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose that one could, but I have to wonder if that's a dangerous thing in an encyclopaedia? I'm sure that most within the USA would probably assume that the USA's involvement (as designers and manufacturers) was "a given", but the USA's financial contribution wasn't (and isn't) as obvious to little old me waaaay down here in the South Pacific. I've now read the article and watched a wonderful 2 part discovery channel program on it - and I'm still none the wiser about this point. T h e M a v e r i c k 06:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Considering that the US is doing the majority of the funding, it makes no sense that the article does not explain how much that funding is, especially when the article does detail how much the other countries are contributing to funding. The article needs information about how much the US is spending. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 09:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The GAO said last year that R&D would eventually exceed $44 billion. That doesn't now agree with the pegging of the UK contribution of $2B as "10%" (and the citation leads to a frame anyway). We may better off leaving contribution percentages out. --Dhartung | Talk 05:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Censorship of russian connection
The words "Russia" or "USSR" or "Soviet Union" or "Yakovlev" do not appear in this article, even though the Yak-41 was the basis of the F-35 design. Whole airframe mock-ups, swivel-pipe engines, all the blueprints were bought from Russia for 300mio USD. Without the russkies the F-35 would not nearly look this way or work this way. It is very biased to omit mention of the crucial ex-soviet know-how from this article. The Boeing X-32 MantaRay was genuine american technology, the F-35 is not. 195.70.32.136 06:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That tripe has shown up and been expunged before. It's not censorship because we're not governmental here. It's not bias if it's not deliberate, but I am skeptical of your claims. You need to provide a source. &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 06:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There might be more to this than first meets the eye. I did a quick google - take a look at http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/russia/yakovlev/yak-41/yak-41.htm. No mention of the Yak-41 being "the basis of the F-35 design", but it is acknowleged that Yakovlev were involved. T h e M a v e r i c k 07:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Some substantiation may be found here (at least):
 * Morrocco, John D., "Lockheed Martin taps Yakovlev for STOVL skills", Aviation Week & Space Technology 1995, v142n25, Jun 19, p. 74-77.
 * Lockheed Martin is turning to Russia's Yakovlev Design Bureau for help in designing short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft for the US Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) competition.
 * Wikipedia shouldn't be judging whether or not the technology contribution was important (that's original research). It should be reporting what is known and citing sources. It's quite clear that there was a huge 1990s rush to license Russian technology; this isn't remarkable.--Dhartung | Talk 17:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Further confirmation:
 * "At the rear of the plane is a three-bearing swivel duct that deflects exhaust from the F119 engine downward to support the tail of the aircraft. The design of this duct was inspired by the Russian YAK-141 STOVL plane, [Lockheed-Martin's Charles "Tom"] Burbage says." Aerospace America, 2001
 * From the horse's mouth, as it were. --Dhartung | Talk 19:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That has already been addressed. The claim that the airframe and core design was lifted from Yakovlev is as yet unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.221.221 (talk • contribs)
 * Please sign your posts on talk pages. Yes, thank you, I addressed that claim by adding the citation I found. Before I did, however, there was no reference to the Yak-141 in the article, demonstrating a failure of research.--Dhartung | Talk 23:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Pop culture
Would it be appropiate to say in the article it makes an apperance in Battlefield 2 and a few other video games? --DragonWR12LB 09:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It woluld be, and I'd support a F-35 Lightning II in Popular culture segment or article. Dfrg.msc 22:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nay &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 00:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

KC-135 "only use the flying boom" statement in error?
I believe the statement "... sacrificing compatibility with Air Force KC-135 Stratotankers, which only use the flying boom in-flight refueling system..." is in error. I was a flier in the USAF from 1989-1996 at bases where KC-135s were stationed and know that the KC-135 could use a non-retractable drogue attachment that went on the end of the boom. Thus, it was kind of a "drogue via boom" setup. The attachment was, of course, not interchangeable in flight and its length required a stand to support it when the aircraft was parked. Is this system no longer in use?

http://www.takhli.org/bob/MemoryJoggersFromArtMcAninch2.htm There are only enough drogue/boom kits to equip half of the KC-135 fleet which is about 534 airframes.(Source- USAF 2005) In addition to that, there is the The Multi-Point Refueling System ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-135 ) which will allow drogue receiver aircraft to take fuel via wing tip drouge devices off of each wing of the KC-135. USAF has about 20 setup with this gear. So the article is in error suggesting that the KC-135 is not compatable with drogue refueling. This should be changed.( ELP USAF )
 * You are correct. The KC-135 in USAF service has both types of refuel methods. In order for the stock USAF KC-135 to use the drogue method, it has to be first setup for drogue only use on the ground. It is an adapter that fits on the end of the boom. Older photos of the drogue attachment here ( this method is still used today when needed ( I'm at a location with USAF KC-135R's ):

HUD
I removed The F-35, which will have helmet-mounted displays, will be the first combat aircraft in history without a heads-up-display.[11]

This seems an incredibly daft statement. Did WWI and WWII combat aircraft really have HUD's !?

I've replaced it with something a little less blind to history.--62.173.76.218 11:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Aircraft such as the WW2 Spitfire had a sort of HUD in the form of a projected gunsight onto the front windscreen. I cannot find a reference to it on the wikipedia Spitfire page nor the surprisingly brief HUD site. --Doctormonkey 09:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

'The Fighter jet'?
'Known as the Fighter jet'? What the hell? Where did you get that from? --Joffeloff 13:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is "featured article"-day. Please bare with us as silly interested people mischievously freely edit the article. --Charles Gaudette 20:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Am I mistaken or wasn't it policy to semi-protect pages linked from the front page? --Mmx1 21:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Frequently it happens because of vandalism, but it isn't standard (yet). --Dhartung | Talk 23:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Participation
As I know, bodies of F-35s are going to be produced by Turkish factories. Also Turkish Airforce will start to use the F-35 as the primary air force by the year 2013. With respect, Deliogul 10:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't know either one for a fact, as neither has been established. Certainly the Turkish workshare has not yet been defined, and neither have any of their delivery dates. &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 13:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It has been repeatably stated that all JSF will be assembled in the U.S. However many companies and countries would like work share in the JSF and keep talking up their chances but so far it is only wishful thinking. 145.253.108.22 16:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

laser energy wepons tripe
some on is having a laugh, and i think you find you have to recharging chemical lasers takes along time. i think this is speculation and should be knocked out of the artical —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.244.246.25 (talk • contribs) July 27, 2006 15:06:24 GMT

We have no reason to suspect otherwise, and the information comes from reputable sources. Quite to the contrary, it is you who would need to show that the energy weapons business is false. &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 16:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I will Bellive it when i see it, i have heard these kind of things have been messed about with for years, and there is suposedly a 747 flying around with a chemical laser as part of the starwars project. however there effectivness is at best dodgy with poor range in the atmosphere and poor acurassy (the slightest bump in flight path could send you beam a fiew arc seconds and 100m off target), i think these compact cemical lasers use a cemical raction for the lasing effect and are a one shot affair. however my point was, is there any citation about such wepons being used in any of the offichial JSF documantation! if not such the reference is speculation and should not really be in an encyclopedia, or sited in as speculation. i understand that Lockeed/ US government would probably be a bit shirty about the details of such weppons. and if such infomation has been leaked out by "a credible source" from such an organisation they are probably best to keep stum.

Silly banners at the top of this Talk page
What's with the uglification? Can we done this down? &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 02:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Resounding agreement. Unfortunately Wikipedians have no aesthetic sense.

raptor vs lightning
the f-22 might have short landing capabilities but with the f-35b on the way (equipped with STOVL) it will easily become a superior force. why you ask? because it is a multirole craft with exceptional air-to-air AND air-to-surface readiness. the raptor cant compare because it is pure fighter. usually an aircraft is one way (F or A) such as the f-22. it can blow enemies out of the skies but must then RTB. im not saying it cant knock off ground targets. im saying the lightning can do that and more. this plane can be scrambled and blow away tanks and facilities, etc. galore and come up with the upper hand and utter victory in a dogfight just as well. never before has a jet been so well equipped to handle BOTH sides of the coin at once.


 * Dogfights? We still have those? lol. Yes, the F-35 was designed as a multi-role aircraft, so why are people still trying to argue that either the Raptor or Lightning II is better than the other when you can't even place them in the same category? Everything aside though, the F-22 can kick the F-35's butt. :P AAK 14:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We cant tell the furure. There will allways be a demand for a fighter.  The F-22 is a better aircraft look at the comparison at the top of the page.  But the F-22 is alot more expensive, Nearly double the price, but you get what you pay for.  The only reason the F-35 is being produced is because the raptor is to expensive.  It is a known fact that the F-35 has striped down technology from the raptor.  The raptor is the best aircraft in the world.  But it is also the most expensive.

Actually the most expensive aircraft in the world is the B2 'Spirit' Stealth Bomber...

Culverin 07:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * SU-47 > both (overpriced, overhyped pieces of...). :P

Engine Thrust
This article states that the P&W F135 delivers 165 kN whereas it actually delivers 177 kN. AAK 14:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Updated the specifications. According to Pratt and Whitney's 2006 release, the F135 engine makes 43,000 lbs (191.3 kN) of maximum thrust and 28,000 lbs (128.1 kN) of intermediate (dry) thrust. link Lockheed-Martin 2006 media kit fact sheets

New additions
Can we be careful about additions so as not to lose FA status? The new content is choppy and of very poor quality. --Mmx1 01:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Air Force/Navy/Vertical are poor designators as the purchasing decisions are in flux - better to stick to the F-35/A/B/C designators.
 * we do not need a 40-year history of the VSTOL concept in the F-35C section. That belongs in VSTOL, not here. Touch on the past and highlights briefly, but this is ridiculous.
 * Agreed. The F35-B section is out of proportion to the discussion of the other variants, largely because it contains material that is interesting but not directly relevant.  Anyone feel like pruning it, and perhaps moving some of the material to another article (e.g. STOVL)? Countersubject 12:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've had a stab at it. It was rediculous - an almost complete history of STOVL flight does not belong here. Also far too much analysis about X-32. That's not important in this context. A brief summary is fine, but full analysis belongs at X-32 article. Mark83 13:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"analysis"
I really don't like the entire analysis section. Encyclopedias by their nature should provide only plain information; the reader is responsible for his own analysis, for better or for worse. This "Analysis" is decent editorializing, but it belongs in Air International or Air & Space magazine. What critics, proponents, advocates, defenders, theorists or analysts believe is of no concern to a reference on the F-35. Those people should all form their opinions based on the Wikipedia entry (and other reference works), and the Wikipedia entry should not reproduce them. They are all POV interpretations of the facts. They would be fine in a "balanced" news or magazine article, but in an encyclopedia they are inappropriate.

At the end of the day it's all a bunch of very weasel-wordy "he said she said," cited or not. And I mean all of it, not the parts that I personally disagree with.


 * see WP:NPOV --Mmx1 17:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's an odd section to have in an encyclopedia. By definition, "analysis" calls for "judgment" and judgment is shaped by one's POV. Moreover, much of what is currently in this section isn't so much "analysis" as it is a "catch-all" collection of issues, problems encountered (and dealt with), criticisms, and responses to same. The planned procurement information, including the possible USAF STOVL purchase would better fit in the 'Program History' ... and the 'Future of the JSF' subsection is more about speculation regarding UCAVs than about the future of the F-35. --Askari Mark | Talk 03:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Patent
for a "Propulsion system for a vertical and short takeoff and landing aircraft" was invented by Bevilaqua; Paul M. (Santa Clarita, CA), and assigned to Lockheed Corporation. According to a February 26, 2004 LM press release, "Rolls-Royce, under contract to Pratt & Whitney, is developing the lift fan for all future STOVL F-35s", but Bevilaqua (for LM) invented the shaft-driven lift fan. I would think that the article should say LM not RR for the patent. Dual Freq 13:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that correction and sorry for jumping on my high horse too quickly! Mark83 15:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Shaft driven lift fan is nothing particularly new Vanguard Omniplane of 1959 so the LM approach must have some particular aspect that is patentable, though whether it is notable - one would have to read through it all.GraemeLeggett 15:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a better citation link might be, but I rather like seeing Paul get his dues, so perhaps Dual Freq's citation could be moved to External References? --Askari Mark | Talk 17:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

End of the manned fighter era
The era of the manned fighter plane may be coming to an end, because the US Air Force is concentrating on unmmanned fighter planes, but the manned fighter plane has dominated the skies of the world for almost a century and more than 1,000 manned fighter types have been developed, built, and flown so far.


 * I suppose whoever posted this here meant it to go in the main article rather than the Talk page, but it seems rather incongruous to say "the US Air Force is concentrating on unmmanned fighter planes" when the only major (unclassified) UCAV program was recently canceled. What is more likely is that the era of manned reconnaissance aircraft is coming to an end since that's where almost all of the USAF's unmanned efforts are going into recce and surveillance UAVs. Askari Mark | Talk 02:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Current status of F136 engine?
The article states that it it canceled under the current budget proposals, but if I look on various sites (GE, RR, Lockheed, NIFARP) they state no such thing. - Dammit 20:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's still cancelled as of 8 September 2006 according to this news report which details the U.S. Senate's attempts to reinstate funding. Mark83 21:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Technically, it's not canceled; rather, it's in limbo. The DoD proposed to non-fund it, but Congress gets the final say. Stay tuned. Askari Mark | Talk 22:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, when I said cancelled what I meant was "in limbo". Minor error, but important for what it suggests. Regarding the websites, yes they have been quiet about the problems. Perhaps they're reluctant to say anything to damage their share prices! Mark83 22:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not so much share prices as political sensitivities at the highest levels of American and British government. Askari Mark | Talk

Excessive use of footers
There is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft. I propose eliminating the X-plane and Lockheed Martin footers (say, this coming Sunday evening, 2006-09-24) from this article. They seem appropriate only for their respective "native" articles. Yea or nay? Askari Mark | Talk 02:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more about the Lockheed template, which I have removed. X-plane template not so clear cut. Mark83 13:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't FAC quality...
This article, in my opinion, is not featured article quality. In the first place, the references are inadequate - there were several fact tags before I came along & I've now added further ref tags for 2 sections that lack references. Furthermore, there is at least one direct external link used as a ref (instead of a footnote). Secondly, at least two sections/sub-sections are very short stubs, I've added stubsection tags to them. Will the editors here please fix these issues? I really don't want to have to take it to WP:FARC. Mi kk er (...) 09:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I fully agee. Hopefully there will be a serious look taken at dealing with the "Analysis" section. Analysis is by its very nature subjective, albeit less so than uninformed opinion, but Wikipedia is not a critical analysis work. Moreover, it seems a shame that the longest section in the article is POV. Askari Mark | Talk 01:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree -- I voted to promote to FA, not sure if the article has deteriorated or not since then. Off the top of my head:
 * Opening paragraph needs a note about the competition and when the first prototypes flew. Instead, it sounds like the plane (even a prototype) hasn't flown.
 * needs lots of citations
 * POV sentences like The JSF brings up the ghost of "commonality", in the Analysis of JSF program section, should be replaced with facts.
 * Analysis of JSF program section reads like an us-against-them debate, needs to be re-written. Should start out reporting the stated goals of the project and how and if they were met. Then criticism.
 * Specifications (F-35 Lightning II) section needs to better identify sources.
 * Program history section needs to clearly cover the competition, which was a huge event and which might merit its own article
 * Duk 19:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Believe it or not, the article is actually much improved since it was (wrongly, IMHO) voted an FA. No offense meant to any editor; the piece was simply pushed for a vote too early and somehow cleared the bar. PRRfan 20:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I went back and read an older version of the article at the time of its FA. It was a good read and flowed well, although a marginal FA candidate. The current article is choppy and the writing more disjointed, partially because of formatting and citation required tags. The biggest deterioration (in my mind) is a snarky/snide negative POV that has crept into the article -- things like removing the actual the reason for Hyde's opposition to tech transfer to Brittan (fixed now), and my earlier example. I don't think this is FA material currently, it should be fixed or listed at Featured article review if not rapidly improved. I have a little time to work on it next week.--Duk 21:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Boeing X-32 has a pretty good history of the competition. Perhaps Boeing X-32 and Lockheed Martin X-35 should redirect to something like "Joint Strike Fighter competition"? (User:Mark83)

Thanks to everyone for such a good response... I don't think there is need to panic here (as everyone realises) and so I will give it a week or so & then take it to FA review if it still doesn't meet WP:WIAFA. Mi kk er (...) 02:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As the problems have not yet been fixed, I've now FAR-ed the article. Mi kk er (...) 18:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Question
Could someone please explain to me the difference in these figures:

"Total program development costs, less procurement, are estimated at over US$40 billion, of which the bulk has been underwritten by the United States.[3]"

"through 2004, the JSF's total projected cost had risen 23% to US$244 billion, and as of April 2006 the Pentagon is projecting the budget to rise to US$276.4 billion."

The cost is variously quoted as being $40bn and $276bn. Please help!

TreveXtalk 09:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe the $276 billion is including the production cost of ~4500 fighters. - Dammit 10:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Harrier
Why the picture of the Harrier? It just clutters up the article. To be consistent, we'd have to add pictures of other aircraft the F35 will replace. Better to leave that to their own pages. Countersubject 17:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed.  It doesn't make sense in this article Not An IP 17:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Laser weapons
"...would essentially also rearm the laser, which could be used even with enemy ground forces located too close to friendly ground forces for employment of explosive armaments."

Are the laser weapons that are being developped really intended to be used against ground forces? To my knowledge laser weapons are only envisioned to be used against missiles and airplanes.83.118.38.37 10:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree the statement sounds speculative, esp since the discussed solid state laser is about 100 kilowatts in power, about 1/10th the 747-based Airborne Laser. However -- there are credible official references discussing use of the solid state laser against ground targets. This article quotes an Air Force scientist as saying the solid state laser (mounted in an F-35 or equiv.) could potentially "selectively destroy ground targets such as communication lines, power grids, and fuel dumps, or even target the fuel tanks on vehicles." But with only 100KW of power, it obviously wouldn't be anything like science fiction depictions of laser disintegrating targets. It would be more like holding a butane torch on the target. Joema 12:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reaction.83.118.38.37 11:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

F-35A Gun
I was at Edwards Air Force Base the other day, and the F-35A prototype they have on display there does not have an internal gun. The test pilot I spoke to (a USAF Lieutenant Colonel) indicated that the location of the gun has not yet been finalized and that the Air Force is seriously considering omitting it altogether. I haven't edited the article to put this in yet, but feel it's obviously very relevant information. Any idea on how to properly cite it? --JaceCady 06:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless and until the USAF changes the official requirement, it's just hearsay. Until we find a published source reporting the same info as your informant, I would say don't include it in the article. The value of the information is that we now know something to keep our eyes open for. Askari Mark | Talk 17:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Is the F-35 not due to replace the A-10? How will it manage that without a gun? Mark83 19:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * With a gun pod, of course! Just like the F-4 in Vietnam. I'm sure we all remember what a success that was(n't). It seems the bureaucracy, military or otherwise, must always relearn old lessons of the past. We'll see in time how this one turns out. -- BillCJ 20:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The F-35B and F-35C are already slated to carry a gun pod as needed instead of an internal gun; the Air Force is simply considering the same option on the F-35A. And it's not *exactly* hearsay; it's a definitive statement by a high-ranking Air Force officer acting in an official public-relations role. --JaceCady 23:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Was there an official press release, or printed coverage of his statements? It may well be totally accurate, but we can't put it in the article as yet because it's unverifiable.


 * One question on the gun pod itself: Is it going to be carried in a centerline pod, just like a fuel tank, and as on the F-4? Or, is it going to be flush-mounted like on the Harriers (I/II), with separate gun and ammo carriage pods? Incidently, the AV-8B carries the GAU-12/U, which is the same gun listed in the article for the F-35. I have heard no mention in any reports on Harriers in combat having the kind of inaccuracy problems experienced with gun pods in VIetnam. If this is how it would be mounted on the F-35s, then the USAF dumping the internal gun would make more sense. It would save weight, and make room for other equipment. -- BillCJ 00:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

X-35B Image
Is anyone having problems with seeing this image? On the article it is just a white space with a little missing image icon on the top left. However, if I click on the image it comes up fine. X360 05:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It does the same thing on my comp. I use IE 6/7 on XP Home. -- BillCJ 05:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto with IE7 on my XP. -- Askari Mark | Talk 05:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I modified the image size, and uploaded it as a new file. It seems to work now at lower PXs. - BillCJ 15:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Following its relocation, I no longer see it. Askari Mark | Talk 18:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't see the image either. I tried to Purge this page and the image page here and on Commons, but no luck. I've cleared my browser cache and tried IE6 and Firefox, no image. I've seen this before, and I thought the purge would fix it, any ideas? --Dual Freq 02:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I disabled the image for now. Seems like there is something wrong with the original pic itself, as far as I can tell. If anyone wants to try to fix or adjust it, it's in the middle of the F-35B section. - BillCJ 06:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Lockheed Martin X-35 article proposal
As we get more information on the JSF, especially if/when it goes into production, this article is going to get very long. The X-35 is actually a different aircraft than the F-35, tho they are very similar (closer than the X-32 would have been to a production model). As we add more info, there might be the tendency to delete information on the X-35 and the JSF program. Instead, it might be better to create a Lockheed X-35 Lockheed Martin X-35 article for the bulk of that information, leaving some info here as a brief overview. This articile could then concentrate of the F-35 itself. We might not want to do this right away, but I think we ought to keep it in mind when we edit the older info. The JSF will probably get a thorough review in the next year or two, especially from the new-look Congress, so waiting till after a review makes sense also. No need to split the article if the F-35 gets cancelled within a couple of years. I'd prefer to go ahead and split it now, but I'll wait till there's a consensus to do so. -- BillCJ 07:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course it should be Lockheed Martin X-35 (currently a redirect to this article). Mark83 08:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops. Thanks. -- BillCJ 09:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Lasers for CAS?
Not to be snippy, but this is ridiculous. That section needs citation and a few "Highly Placed Air Force Sources Claim" bits put in. With a laser suitable for air-to-air combat you can, what, kill (maybe wound) an individual infantryman before they get wise and start throwing smoke grenades? It'll never do anything to an armored vehicle besides kill the crew from laughing too hard. Kensai Max 02:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The mention of energy weapons on JSF needs to be reduced. There are any number of other things re: The JSF program that are important and ongoing. ELP - 28 Nov 06
 * I vehemently disagree. The section is brief and we have references from a highly reputable source. I'm not sure how you could reduce it any further. Do you have an agenda? &mdash;Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 22:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Speculated USAF STOVL Purchase

 * As costs grow, there have been rumors about canceling the F-35B variant. However, U.S. operations in Afghanistan have highlighted a need for jump jets in unimproved battlespaces, leading to a hazy USAF "commitment" to buy F-35B and preserve the economic rationale to produce the STOVL jets needed by the USMC, RN, and RAF. The USAF has reportedly investigated buying up to 216 STOVL F-35s, enough to outfit three wings. One option discussed and discarded was a fourth variant, the F-35D, which would have had a different propulsion system to increase emphasis on STOL capability over that of VTOL, a larger wing to allow more fuel, an internal cannon (as opposed to the USMC external gun pod), and changes to in-flight refueling.

This was recently commented out in the text. In the spring on 2005 (could have been 2004), I read a USAF press release to the fact that they were taking over the F-35B program, as their proposed buy would make them the largest users of the type. This was quietly changed back to the Navy later (I don't know when, just that tehy control it once more. This is not your usual run-of the-mill rumor, but I agree it needs to be sourced properly. - BillCJ 00:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As you know I removed it. However I couldn't agree more, it isn't just a general rumour. In fact I'm nearly sure I was the one who added the bit about the USAF/F-35B back when this article was F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. But it's not just the fact that its a "rumour" which made me remove it pending citation - it is the vague way it is written. Mark83 16:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I know who removed it; that's why I didn't just revert it :) . I placed it here in the hopes that someone will have a good source for it, as deletions sometimes go unnoticed. I agree that is is vague, and as such doesn't belong in the text as-is. Also, the cite tag had been on it for some time, at least a month, probably more than two. - BillCJ 16:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The New F-35A Image on its first flight
I have uploaded this image and it has since been put up the top as the title image. I do not think it is big enough at the moment and I have tried to make it bigger by adjusting it to sizes such as 300px. Every time I do this, '250px]]' is written next to the image, as well as '[[' at the top. I have searched everywhere in the code and there is no 250px written anywhere. i have never had this problem before. Can someone else resize it please? (Make sure you preview before saving, because most likely it won't be right.) X360 07:35, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, the image has been taken down now anyway. X360 01:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ordnance
The article doesn't give a figure for the maximum ordnance capacity in terms of total weight/mass. Anyone? Grant65 | Talk 19:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

coolant?
Does the fact that the F-35 will be using a cold air lifting fan mean that it won't need to expend coolant when taking off or landing vertically, thus giving it unlimited hovering time?

perfectblue 14:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well you've got to remember it uses a lot of fuel to hover, and there isn't unlimited fuel. This obviously means it can't hover forever. :) X360 00:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

We need a new section for the testing of the F-35
The aircaft has made three test flights so there should be a new section on the testing. X360 11:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know that a whole new section is needed for that just yet. A sentence or two would be fine. Askari Mark (Talk) 01:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm
should the Royal Navy be on the list of primary users. i always thought most of the british involvement was down to the RN. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pratj (talk • contribs) 20:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Do you mean in the Infobox at the top of the page? According to WP:Air/PC:Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/page content, the Infobox is limited to 4 users maximum. As of right now, the four listed are the 4 largest users in terms if numbers to be purchased, tho this could change. I have yet to see any info that the RAF is no longer going to be using the F-35, though if you have a verifiable source, please tell. - BillCJ 00:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Specs for CTOL, STOVL, CV Models
What is the best way to code the specification section to better reflect the different models?

Example, Wing span on the CTOL/STOVL is 35ft yet on the CV it is 43 ft

Wing area 460 sq ft for the CTOL/STOVL and 668 sq ft for the CV

All three have different empty weights too. 29,036 CTOL, 32,161 STOVL and 32,072 CV

Internal fuel, CTOL is 18480 pounds, STOVL is 14003 pounds, CV is 20085 pounds

I think this is important enough to show but of course would like to know opinions on this.

ELPusa 00:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

reduced orders
I read in the Australian press that the USAAF will halve it's order but haven't seen anything here (wiki) nor can I find a reliable source. Any word? Brettr 04:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Cost-of-new-fighters-may-blow-out/2007/02/22/1171733928733.html quotes the head of the Australian Defence Materiel Organisation as saying that possible US cuts are the F-35 program's greatest risk and Lockheed-Martin as saying that there's been no cutback in US orders. As such, the issue seems to be that while its likely that US orders will be cut this hasn't happened yet (BTW, its the USAF now ;) ). --Nick Dowling 10:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The 7 February issue of Jane's Defence Weekly has an article which states that the cuts are contained in the proposed US defence budget which is yet to be approved. --Nick Dowling 06:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * interesting comments, thanks Nick. Brettr 08:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

J-10 as a comparable aircraft?
Should the Chinese new J-10 fighter be considered as a comparable aircraft to the F-35? From what I understand, J-10's combat performance is about equal or slightly better than the F-16C/D and I think J-10 is no where close to other comparable aircrafts listed there such as Typhoon, Rafale, F-22 and PAK FA MiG-1.44.


 * I believe the purpose of "comparable aircraft" section is merely used to compare the said aircraft with other aircrafts of its time period, rather then a spot used for nationalistic opinions. Otherwise, we'd run into problems with people saying that 1.44 is better then F-35 and vice versa, etc etc. --74.121.67.51 04:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, that was suppose to be signed by me. --Steven 04:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think we have any evidence indicating that the J-10 has comparable combat performance to the F-35. Manuever performance possibly, but there remains a dearth of reliable data upon which to make that judgment even with respect to the latest models of the F-16. In either case, the PRC's indigenous aircraft industry is still struggling to catch up with the Russians' level of technological sophistication, so it seems highly unlikely that they've been able to jump straight into 5th-gen capabilities that the US is only just now beginning to master. In any case, I'd certainly be more comfortable as saying the J-10 was "comparable" to an F-16. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Classified capability
This section is very vague (obviously). However, Minister Nelson's quote and surrounding ones in the transcript only refer to the fighter's general capabilities, not specifically weapon systems as the section in this article implies. Link: '60 Minutes' broadcast "Project Joint Strike Fighter" -Fnlayson 23:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've moved the material to a better place in the article (was in Specs!). I also removed all the nuclear and directed engergy stuff as peure specualtion. It's not even mentioned in the transcript. About the only worth of the whole quote is that it hints to the classified capability as being something really worthwhile.


 * As an aside, the transcript was really choppy, and the Air Marshall's response often appeared contradictory. Would love to hear the whole interview from before it was edited for broadcast. Seems like a lot of context was taken out to prove the broadcaster;s points. - BillCJ 23:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I tried to quickly read through that transcript but couldn't follow it.  So I jumped to the quote and read the area. ;) -Fnlayson 00:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No prob. It might have been easier to follow on the visual broadcast, I don't know. I had trouble reading it too! - BillCJ 00:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I still don't see what this section adds. Every bit of modern military hardware has classified components (for instance, the armour on tanks, the maximum safe diving depth of submarines and the stealth capabilities of modern fighters) so this doesn't indicate anything special about the F-35. Does anyone other than the Australian minister for Defence regard the F-35's classified components as being unusually important? --Nick Dowling 10:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I don't either, but they found a cite like we asked then too, and they're pretty insistant on its importance. If we want to try to get a consensus to remove it tho, I'll definitely support taking it out for the reasons you gave. - BillCJ 15:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought it was rather amusing that Brendan Nelson aluded to a mystical 5% that makes the F-35 the best plane in the world. Well, atleast thats how he made it look anyway. How about putting in a mystical 5% section. BTW, is there a 5% that makes any other aircraft 'perfect'?


 * I have moved the material to where it really belongs, which is in the Australian section — This is much more appropriate given its context. Unless and until someone can enlighten us as to "5%" of what (weight, systems, cost, etc.), I have to believe the number was pulled out of thin air. It's clear that what Dr. Brendan was trying to communicate was that there was some quite useful and important capability that even the Super Hornet doesn't have that makes the F-35 especially desirable for the ADF. Askari Mark (Talk) 14:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he was trying to communicate that, or he was just lying to cover himself, and since no one can prove it, you can not just assume he's telling the truth. He is a politician after all... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.19.165 (talk • contribs)

Link to Video of 60 Minutes Story
Below is a link to the actual story on the F-35, as it was aired on australian Television program 60 Minutes. It is somewhat more coherent than the actual transcript if you can actually see what the hell they are talking about. Note there is a 30 second ad, you have to wait for the video to play after that.

http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?f=39&g=412b7c99-c044-4ad1-86f5-580dc83143ec&p=aunews_au60minutes&t=m163&mediaid=77361 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.19.165 (talk • contribs)


 * thanks, as an expat Aussie it's interesting to see stuff like that. Personally I think we are wasting our money on F-35 or F-22 and should stick with the FA-18E/F. They have the same systems and arnaments. We aren't going to be attacking anyone, surely? Brettr 16:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Depends on how much we are "Alert but not Alarmed". There are those of us who still foolishly believe that Indonesia is going to invade us, despite the fact that their military does not have any significant airborne and amphibious capability, has an air force that is weak (despite possessing some good hardware), an army more geared towards internal security matters and a navy that cannot project power at all. In short, aside from the JI and any other Al-Qaeda-linked (or-supposedly linked) terror/piracy organisations that are in the region, don't expect anything bad coming from up "North" anytime soon, expect for cyclones.


 * When I was in the Army I heard frequent talk about Indonesia this and Indonesia that and I thought it was all BS. We've engaged in some forms of joint training with their armed forces, but I can tell ya there are quite a number of ignoramuses who still chant the Indonesian threat mantra. Quite a number of these people even have general knowledge, literacy and numeracy skills that are so laughable that it makes you wonder how people like that got in the ADF in the first place. I guess if the ADF was really that desperate then we are already in trouble! But enough of my rants regarding my concerns about the ADF. I'm out of there and I'm not supposed to care anymore.


 * There are Australian companies that will benefit if we purchase the F-35. It's all about money (and jobs, and developing/maintaining/improving the aerospace techological manufacturing capability that we have, however small). That I guess is the primary motivator behind the decision to arbitrarily choose the Lightning II, over it's competitors, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.


 * Australia will not benefit as much, if at all, from the purchase of these European fighter designs. Development of the Rafale is already complete as is the Typhoon. We are not going to have any participation at all in, say, the manufacture of those two aircraft. Our companies do not provide any major systems that are used on those aircraft. And remember what the French did to us duing the Vietnam War...they threatened to block sales of spare parts to us if we deployed the Mirage 3's (that we used to have in the RAAF inventory at the time). We learned from that mistake early when we laughed off their Mirage 2000 offer and instead purchased the F/A-18A/B Hornets to replace the Mirage 3's back in the 1980's.


 * Dr Brendan Nelson can say all the BS he wants about the supposed top secret factors about the F-35, that he could not reveal in the interview, that were supposedly crucial in Defence's choice to pick the JSF. From what I know he is not a big fan of the at-times flawed, strange, obscure, excrutiatingly long and seemingly pointless defence procurement process, and has even made it known of his dislike for the Army's purchase of the reconditioned M1A1 Main Battle Tanks or MBT's (purchased with the go-ahead of his predecessor Robert Hill); 59 of which are being purchased to replace the 103 ageing Leopard MBT's. The purchase of the C-17 Globemaster, thanks also in part to the Army's purchase of the Abrams in order to justify this tank's existence in our arsenal, was in my humble opinion a good decision...one of the few that have come out from the DoD in a while.


 * I am not as confident with the choice of the F-35 but it all really depends on where our defence and government chiefs want to go in terms of national policy in the future. Interventionalism hand in hand with the United States seems to be driving defence/government decisions of late. And in any case we can forget about purchasing the F-22 for the moment as that plane is not legally cleared for export to foreign nations, even overly friendly and supportive ones such as Australia. But things can change. Who knows? Wikiphyte 14:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Specifications
The Specifications listed seem to cover both A and B versions. The C version should be heavier for carrier landings. If this is correct, shouldn't A and B be listed in there? Thanks. -Fnlayson 01:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Users
well, i noticed the royal navy wasn't on the list of users, though according to its website they will be ordering 150 of the STOVL (probably, the regular veriason may still be sued) JSFs. i'm not sure how this compares to the USMC but i personally think that the RN should be on that list.


 * Actually, I believe the 150 number is for both the RAF and the RN, with the split something like RAF (90) and RN (60). The USMC is supposed to receive several hundred (exact figure in article). As to why the RN is not on that list at the top of the article, it is because that list is limited to 4 users total, and the RN would make 5. THis is because the infobox is intended as only a summary, as the other operators are listed in the text. THere are vasious ways to decide which 4 users to list in the Infobox; this one was decided by numbers to be purchased. Hope that helps. - BillCJ 18:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Although the number remains officially "up to 150", recent reports have reported that current plans may call for only 136 or 138. Aviation Week & Space Technology carried a report back last November, I believe, that around 80 would be grouped into four squadrons to support carrier ops, with the remaining aircraft would be formed into two squadrons to replace some Tornado GR.4s. I suppose this would mean that the RN would be the "senior buyer", but if the F-35s are to be operated like the Joint Force Harrier, the split could be unclear. Perhaps instead of "RN" or "RAF", it would be best just to say "UK". Askari Mark (Talk) 01:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Somebody would want to change that, I'm sure. Maybe list them both on a line like RAF/RN.  That might not be much better as far as inviting edits to 'fix it'..  -Fnlayson 01:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine by me. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine with me too. They've been trying to "fix" it for weeks anyway, I don't think this change'll make much difference. - BillCJ 03:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Made that change. I put RAF first using alphabetical order. -Fnlayson 03:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

why not put the US under one banner as well, like;

US Armed Forces US(MC/AF/N) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.124.122 (talk • contribs)
 * Order numbers justify seperate entries. Besides, the UK forces are only grouped together because the split of their order is uncertain as we explained above.  -Fnlayson 17:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Export
There's something I've been wondering about. Now will the export versions of the F-35 have the same amount of stealth and other sensitive technology as the ones the U.S. will have? or will they be "sanitized" and use less sensitive technology, resulting in less capability? Just curious. - Tsurugi
 * From what's been reported in the Australian media, the non-US variants will be slightly less capable than the US variants. --Nick Dowling 05:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I know very close allies like the UK, Australia, and other Western countries like the Netherlands will get the F-35, but what about countries like Turkey? Is it possible that countries like those will have even less capability than those of what maybe the UK and Australia will use if they are able to get them (i maybe asking the same question again)? I'm not really aware of how close relations between the U.S. and Turkey are.
 * Turkey is a close ally too, they've been in NATO since 1952 and are level 3 partners in the development of the F-35. To further show you how close of an ally they are: they have production rights for the F-16, just like for instance the Netherlands. But you are right in stating there will probably be export restrictions on the F-35 to not-so-close allies. I think Lockheed already told a few years back that there would be a less stealthy version for export to those countries. - Dammit 18:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I heard in a documentary that the contract given to Lockheed Martin after it won the JSF was supposed to be the largest in military history. is that really true? and how much money was it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsurugi (talk • contribs)
 * See the press releases on the official JSF sites. Here's one:   And sign your posts. -Fnlayson 00:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

International Participation
Shouldn't there be mention of the conflict between the US and Israel over the sale of the IAI Harpy to China, which culmanated in Israel being expelled from the program, though later readmitted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.69.118.1 (talk) 02:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC).


 * If you have a credible, verifiable source, feel free to post a link, and we'll take a look. However, I'm not really sure why that would be relevant here, as this is about the F-35 itself, not about any supossed dispute between partners over issues other than the aircraft. - BillCJ 05:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, it does play a role. The US was upset over Israeli advanced technology exports to the PRC, some of which may have been based upon US technology. Recriminations led to a delay in Israel's getting approval to learn more about F-35 capabilities until it was too late for Israel to affect the design to the degree it would otherwise have been allowed as a SCP. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Still no reference though. And what difference would Israel have made anyway? What capabilities would they have pushed for that are not currently present? Further Israeli exports to the PRC are nothing new; there was controversy over export of Israeli AEW technology about 5 or 6 years ago, and many F-16s have been exported since. IMHO it would take an egregious act by Israel to have even the slightest effect on US exports of military tech. or equipment. Mark83 22:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian order
As far as I'm concerned Norway has not yet chosen between F-35, Eurofighter and JAS-Gripen. Are there any definite sources about the order of 48 planes (which is only a proposal at this time and not a real order according to news in Norway... or am I wrong?)


 * There has not yet been a firm order placed for production F-35s by anybody yet, although the US may make its first order in the next fiscal year, depending on what actually comes out of the Congress' final budget when approved. What the partner countries have committed themselves to is to fund the final development stage of the production F-35; the most recent contract is not a commitment to buy actual aircraft. They have, in a sense, "reserved" a place in the order schedule. Most partner countries are expected to place their first actual orders ca. 2008-10. If they do not, they lose their specific "reserved" place in line and priority over orders by non-partner nations – and could stand to pay higher unit prices by not taking advantage of the large multinational "bulk buy". Askari Mark (Talk) 22:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. Do you know if the development contracts include some part of the production?  Or is production covered in seperate agreements?  For example the UK making some of the parts for their aircraft or assemblying their planes.   - Fnlayson 22:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This answer is just based on my limited knowledge & memory. The UK's involvement is the result of BAE System's involvement, not directly from the UK's commitment to purchasing the aircraft. In my opinion we would be getting into speculation to say British Aerospace (as it was) got into it because of the UK's obvious need for a Harrier replacement, though that was probably the case. I have several references which state the F-35 would not be the aircraft it was without the BAe/BAE involvement - primarily through BAE's knowledge of advanced production techniques as a result of the Typhoon. However my knowledge is only on the UK/US involvement - I don't know whether other countries are being offered "carrots" in exchange for orders.
 * At the minute all F-35s will be assembled in Texas. There are negotiations for Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) in other countries - but Lockheed Martin are adamant that such facilities will be at the host country's expense. There has been no agreement for a UK FACO facility. But no matter where the aircraft are bolted together and who the customer is, BAE will have made the aft fuselage/empennages/horizontal and vertical tails.Mark83 23:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Mark83's memory serves him well – for the most part. A key point of the development contracts have been that aerospace firms in partner countries have an "inside track" for vendor contracts, albeit "officially" on a best-capability case rather than as an offset; naturally, as those nations' companies have signed onto what is projected to be the largest aerospace program in history, they can be expected to press their governments to go ahead with an order – it's a two-way street in that regard. It's my understanding from what I've read in the open literature to date that these companies will be contractors whether or not their nation orders the plane; I don't know if there may be codicils in the development contract that come into effect if such orders are not forthcoming. I would expect not, though, since it is the countries that are investing as "partners" in the F-35's development. Certainly in the case of BAE Systems, it is the key major subcontractor on the program, and its role is integral to the aircraft's successful development. While their advanced production techniques are certainly "world class", the most essential capabilities BAE brought to the table was its second-to-none experience with STOVL aircraft technologies.


 * To answer the other part of Fnlayson's question, short of dropping a copy of the most recent contract (likely to have amounted to many thousands of tediously written and lawyerly-reviewed-and-approved pages) and finding a satisfactory inducement to make me read it, I have to say, "I don't know." ;-) Based on my own professional knowledge and experience of how these things are done, I would suspect that what companies get what pieces of the production aircraft program are locked in – which otherwise would tend to make multinational agreements impossible (e.g., the Eurofighter program) – but anything about precommitments to orders tends to tread on sovereign sensitivities that are extremely difficult to run through legislatures' approval wickets without a bit of noise. The only possible exception I can see – and it would be very "outside" – could lie in the special side agreement the US and UK made about (primarily) BAE's having sufficient access to certain secret advanced technologies so that the Kingdom could maintain sovereign control over modification and sustainment of the aircraft it plans to procure. That's the only official "secret codicil" that I'm aware of and what privileges and responsibilities and sidebars and whatnot it may entail, who knows. On the other hand, I see little need for demanding a production commitment "lock-in", since the only other affordable, advanced STOVL aircraft option for the UK is to keep extending the lives of their Harriers until they rival the B-52 in youthfulness ... and the thought of a "Harrier GR.52" should surely give any pilot pause. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies, wow. I was expecting a somewhat simple answer.  I sorta expected production was seperate. -Fnlayson 05:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Darn, does that mean I don't get to charge my usual dissertation fees? ;-) Askari Mark (Talk) 05:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you offer a multi-year bulk rate for that? ;) -Fnlayson 05:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

BAE parts delivery to USA
Northrop makes many parts, but delivery can't be a major problem - road? rail? How does BAE Systems get its parts (aft fuselage and empennages, horizontal and vertical tails) across the Atlantic? Containers? Air? Mark83 22:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure of specific details, but naturally it will be whatever is most cost-effective. I would expect that most will be shipped stateside by container. Air shipment, like on an An-225, would probably be reserved for the occasional outsized or "priority-express" assembly. BAE could choose to ship just sub-assemblies to a US plant for partial assembly and then container it for road/rail transshipment as required. Wings, fins and tails are only mated during final assembly. This is surprisingly not a huge deal – albeit a lot of art and analysis. The Russians used to ship entire MiG-21s, partially unassembled, along with all the tools needed to put them together, in three railroad shipping crates. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I assumed containers. I'm so suprised this isn't a more public issue; I mean the UK is manufacturing major pieces of an aircraft which will form the backbone of the USAF for the next few decades. Now I know this is not a major issue - but I'm suprised the sensationalist elements of the media have not seized on it. And of course cost is the primary issue - To continue the Mig theme of your reply, that's why we're still making cutting edge fighters while Mikoyan has yet to display comparable aircraft. Thanks for the insight. Mark83 00:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone better not mention that Rolls-Royce Merlin engines made the P-51 Mustang into the venerable fighter it became, otherwise we’d have a crisis on our hands. FDR sells out to Limeys, compromises industry vital to national security. North American Aviation reportedly to close; American government capitulates to British monarchy, announces Revolutionary War 'misguided'. Oh, the humanity of it! --72.201.81.188 00:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)