Talk:Logosophy

VFD Result
The result of the VFD can be found here: Votes for deletion/Logosophy -- AllyUnion (talk) 04:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC) -- --Spharion 14:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) The article is saying Logosophy is a "Science". Probably something like "is defined as a Science by it's followers" would go better. The article says also Logosophy is "inquestionably" something while it is quite questionably that.

First paragraph of principles section is one long sentence. Needs to be split. Might need to merge some paragraphs in this section too. RJFJR 17:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC) -- Logosophy isn't a "type of science." It's not science at all. "Self-help with some New Age flavor" suits it better. I have not edited the actual entry because I lack the time and patience to make the language neutral enough, but I hope someone goes ahead and does it. 200.188.187.235 00:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Logosophy and science
One can see implicit bias from several of Wikipedia's editor's in comments about this topic, showing a clear lack of knowledge of cross-cultural nuances and Philosophy of Science.

First and foremost, "ciencia" in Spanish and other Latin based languages such as French and Portuguese still keep the original Latin etymology of Scientia as "organized body of knowledge". If you would believe Merriam-Webster, the same would be true in English, but it seems that the indoctrination of scientificism in US public schools has made everything but hard sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology) a candidate for pseudo-science classification, even Sociology, Psychology and other humanistic disciplines (see their own topics and you will know what I am talking about).

When Freud, Jung and others decided to create Psychology and its variants from scratch, if they had to wait permission from Academia and Encyclopedists to allow it to exist only after ratifying they were a legitimate science, we would be waiting until today. For that matter, even Aristotle, who is touted as one of the fathers of the scientific method, would be outcast by the simplistic definition of science embedded in pop American culture and imaginaire. It is only necessary to mention Paul Feyerabend's work (for instance, Against Method) to remind us that what is and what is not science is not a clear-cut picture.

Second, although Logosophy may not fit the Academic definition of Science (I would still dispute that in view of Feyerabend's ideas), it nevertheless supports and encourages Academic scientific research through helping its practitioner's in internalizing and living a scientific attitude:

- It recommends systematic observation as means to attain knowledge;

- It recommends that you should not believe in Logosophy (nor anything else) no matter how true its statements may seem. You are supposed to gather evidence on their reality in your own life through experimentation;

- Before you adopt a new concept, you must experiment with it and gather evidence in your own life that the new one is better than the current one you have;

- Concepts are bound to evolve as well;

- It is not true what cannot be individually verified through experimentation, and you need to be able to verify it repeatedly, not just once;

- The word belief must be replaced by the word knowledge, "because it is by knowing, and not by believing, that man becomes truly conscious of the management of his life; in other words, what he thinks and does;" in Initiation Course into Logosophy, §76;

- Occam's razor: Logosophy summarizes and simplifies a great body of human experience by solely postulating thoughts as living entities (which, by the way, has recently become sort of a fad with memetics; however, Logosophy had stated it since 1930);

- Thoughts are observable through the indirect consequences of their actions (in the same way you don't "see" atoms, you know about them in an indirect way such as Brownian motion, as Einstein showed in 1905, later ellaborated by Jean Perrin);

- Logosophy provides a more thorough definition of knowledge. According to it, cognitions (pieces of knowledge) emerge in the mind from the application of theoretical concepts to reality through experimentation; everything else just information about a topic, but not real knowledge of it.

In summary, it seems that Logosophy makes a "scientist of the mind" out of its practitioners. For that alone I would say that Logosophy is auxiliary to any rational endeavor, specially the one proposed by Stephen Hawking:

"However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."

---Brief History of Time (page 233, Expanded Edition, 1996)

There are other facets to the topic "Logosophy", which I might elaborate in the future.

By cmendonca

Logosophy does not fit the New Age definition from Wikipedia
As of June 16th 2006, the Wikipedia article on New Age says: "The term New Age describes a broad movement of late 20th century and contemporary Western culture, characterised by an individual eclectic approach to spiritual exploration." By "eclectic", it is explained later in the article that "New Agers typically construct their own spiritual journey based on material taken as needed from the mystical traditions of world religions, and also including shamanism, neopaganism and occultism."

Logosophy does not fit this New Age definition because:

- The Logosophical Foundation exists since 1930, so it was created long before the "late 20th century" date for New Age movements;

- It has no such "eclectic approach to spiritual exploration". As González Pecotche explains, "[i]n bringing to light the cognitions which emanate from its own fountainhead, Logosophy discards all known theories. It does so deliberately, for two essentials reasons: first, because its own originality demands it, and secondly, to avoid the confusion which would interfere with the free development of the mental domain as a result of the intermingling of seeds of distinct origins, because that kept in the "granary" of Logosophy is selected specially to produce the richest crop in the shortest time." in Logosophy Science and Method, page 2, Philosophical Library, Inc. 1959

The classification of Logosophy as "New Age" is therefore incorrect. However, it is not clear which classification to apply. Some might think that "Spirituality" would be a fit, but the current religious connotation of this word would be at odds with Pecotche's support for scientific research principles. "Philosophy" would be another option, but even better would be "Humanist psychology", a category that exists in Spanish Wikipedia but not in the English version. "Humanism" is the better choice in English.

Pecotche himself recognized this classification difficulty: "The very fact that totally new cognitions are involved will make it evident that they cannot have any common point of contact with anything known. They form a family of thoughts of such a special nature that it will be very difficult, if not utterly impossible, to establish a kinship between them and the rest." in Logosophy Science and Method, page 85, Philosophical Library, Inc. 1959

Logosophy probably defines a category of its own. As mentioned before, "Humanism" might be a fit. However, since there is no category stub for "Humanism", I am dropping the "New Age stub" classification for this article until it is not a stub and can be classified as either "Logosophy" and/or "Humanism".

--cmendonca

--64.140.1.226 02:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Logosophy as Humanism
Further research into Pecotche's writings show that the best classification of Logosophy is Humanism:

"Differing therefore from the generalized concept of humanism, our humanism starts from one's own sensitive and thinking being who seeks to accomplish within himself the evolutionary process that all humanity must follow. One's accomplishment in this respect will inevitably constitute later a true example of what each participant within the great human family can achieve". -- The mechanism of conscious life, Chapter XII: "Humanism as the innermost aspiration of the individual. The nature of logosophical humanism.", page 103

Therefore I am dropping the "Science stub" classification that Amalas applied, and also removing the NPOV marker that Mtiedemann applied. Mtiedemann comments were simply "not a science", with no further explanation, so I assume he/she was under the same implicit cultural bias as mentioned above in "Logosophy and science".

--cmendonca

--70.112.146.196 15:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

'Advert'
The article, as written, appears an uncritical POV advert for logosophy, presenting it as an established academic subject. I have therefore added an 'advert' tag. Mtiedemann 15:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is quite an old comment, I think it has been widely improved and we can remove this point from the discussion. --167.61.83.195 (talk) 03:58, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, please remove this to do some cleanup here --Akma72 (talk) 16:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Article outline
I am planning the rewrite of this article in NPOV. If any of you has a suggestion for an outline, please post it here.

--70.112.146.196 21:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Tentative outline
As a tentative outline, I have been thinking about this one:

1. Introduction

2. Theory of Knowledge

3. Moral and Political Theory

4. Relationship to Philosophy

5. Relationship to Science

6. Accomplishments and Influence

7. Suggestions for Further Reading

I have also been trying to find external references (magazine and newspaper articles, books that refer to Logosophy) in English. There are plenty in Spanish and Portuguese, but not many in other languages. Please post here the ones you might have from publications in the English language.

70.112.159.168 17:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
I've seen that articles about Logosophy are having trouble with neutral point of view in a few languages.

I am afiliated to the Logosophical Foundation and member of an internacional comission that aims to diffuse Logosophy around the world, where I take care of the Internet diffusion. Taking the existing articles, I will rewrite one article about Logosophy, following Wikipedia policy. This article will be translated to other languages in the future, then included in other languages Wikipedias. My goal is to document Logosophy in Wikipedia with the same article in several languages.

If anyone wants to talk with me about the changes I will make, please leave a message on my talk page.

--Gtondello 14:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Dictionary Definitions - Argentina
SAPIENS Illustrated encyclopedia of the Castilian language. Editorial Sopena Argentina - Volume II, Year 1958

(translated from Spanish)

González Pecotche, (Carlos Bernardo). Philosopher and writer Argentinean. born in 1901, founder of Logosofía. Author of: Dialogues; Introduction to the Logosophical Cognition; Logosophical Exegesis; The mechanism of Conscious Life; Logosophy. Science and Method; etc. He uses the pseudonym of “Raumsol”.

Logosophy (Gr. logo, treaty, study, and Sophia, wisdom).f. Philosophical ethical doctrine founded by Carlos González Pecotche, who leads to self cognition. It admits the reality of a conscious system composed of two minds: superior, which it takes care of the Metaphysical world (incumbent of the spirit), and the inferior one, relating to common intellectual and physical activities. The thoughts, which have autonomy and are independent of the individual will, are born and act under the influence of own or other people's psychic and moral states. With a rigorous selection of them, the authority-thought arises and must govern the spiritual and conscious life one self. It maintains the principle of conscious evolution, which leads Man to achieve the highest purpose of his existence: his self redemption thru the type of knowledge that is essential to that finality. It affirms the absolute originality of his method, applicable to the individual life, and from whose adoption relates to his reencounter with his own spirit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.125.37.193 (talk) 13:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

National Administration of Post office from Uruguay - Commemorative stamps
Commemorative stamp issued in 1992 by the National Administration of Post office from Uruguay

Listed here as part of the 1992 releases. (December 29, 1992) “60 Años de Logosofia” (60 years of Logosophy in Uruguay) — 200.125.35.230 01:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)J.Dusio

The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.125.37.193 (talk) 13:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Commemorative stamp issued in 2001 by the National Administration of Post office from Uruguay: (August 7th, 2001) "100 años del Nacimiento de González Pecotche fundador de la Logosofía" (Centennial of the Birth of Bernardo González Pecotche, founder of Logosophy)

Original web reference in English

Original web reference in Spanish

Current web reference in Spanish


 * 72.177.118.252 17:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * cm 70.253.93.127 (talk) 07:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The Honorable House of Representatives of the Argentina Nation declares of interest the pedagogical and humanistic work
The Honorable House of Representatives of the Argentina Nation declares of interest the pedagogical and humanistic work that the Logosophical Foundation –in pro of human improvement- has been doing for seventy five years (see: http://www1.hcdn.gov.ar/proyxml/expediente.asp?fundamentos=si&numexp=0448-D-2006)

Review File Nbr. 0448-D-2006 Parliamentary Proceeding 7 Summary: To declare of interest the Pedagogical and Humanistic work that the Logosophical Foundation –in pro of human improvement- has been doing for seventy five years

Signers OSUNA, WHITE INES - LOVAGLIO SARAVIA, ANTONIO - GODOY, RUPERTO EDUARDO. Send to Commissions: COOPERATIVE SUBJECTS, MUTUALES and OF NON GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS; EDUCATION.

The House of Representatives of the Nation RESOLVES: To declare of interest of this Honorable Camera, the pedagogical and humanistic work developed by the Logosófica Foundation for the Human Overcoming, association without aims of profit, founded by the thinker and Argentine educator Carlos Bernardo González Pecotche, who has been spreading for 75 years an integral and formative proposal, of deep human value and scientific rigor, whose application in the formal and no-formal education highly produces beneficial results for the personal improvement and the improvement of the society.

Foundations The Logosófica Foundation in pro of Human Improvement fulfills 75 years of fecund work of diffusion and formation in the Logosophical thought. Logosophy contributes with knowledge for the creation of a new culture and proposes a rigorous method of integrated thought and action that has as its principal objective, the conscious evolution of the human being. It is a characteristic of this method the essential necessity of individual verification of the transmitted knowledge, as a guarantee to the conquest the one’s personal knowledge.

Among their fundamental teachings are those that concern with one self knowledge, undeniable base for the knowledge of our personal life, its projections in the life of others and consequently, in the spheres of the highest accomplishments of human intelligence.

Other branches of the Logosófica Foundation, in addition to the Argentinean, grow in Brazil, Uruguay, Venezuela, Ecuador, Mexico, the United States, Spain, Israel and there exist groups of students scattered in other 40 countries.

The creator of Logosophy is Argentine thinker and humanist Carlos Bernardo González Pecotche, born in Buenos Aires on August 11th  1901 who died on April the 4th, 1963.

In 1930 he establishes the institution that soon will be constituted as the Logosophical Foundation as the channel for the diffusion and study of this method. At this moment, this institution without profit aims has, in the City of Buenos Aires its headquarter and other 10 branches in different points of our country.

Logosophy generates a deep relationship with pedagogy: the logosophical method is a formative method for the person, therefore with deep educative roots.

In words of its founder, Carlos Bernardo González Pecotche: "The Logosophical Pedagogy is the pedagogy of the right saying, the right thinking; it is the pedagogy of the happiness, because at the same time that teaches, it builds happiness

The logosophical pedagogy is based on clear and simple conceptions of respect, honesty and the knowledge of elementary rules of discernment and understanding of the insurmountable advantages granted by a high and dignity conduct.

Its rich didactic volume offers new objectives, precise directions and novel techniques to teaching, supported in the psychological, mental, moral and sensible life of the human being, all of which contributes to obtaining a solid education that hierarchizes the human condition.

According to the logosophical pedagogy, to teach it is not only necessary to posses the knowledge that is going to be transmitted, but also to cultivate the virtues that distinguish whom will be the transmitter. The educator has to be an example of it, to allow the student to benefit from observing and learning what the teacher has conquer himself and it is reflected as an inseparable part of himself. For example he will be patient to teach a knowledge, and for that reason he will know how to guide the children to practice that patience themselves, to assimilate it in their interior.

The Logosophical Pedagogy is nowadays completely applied in the specific educative institutes in levels of primary and secondary education in Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil. In Argentina there are schools of both levels in the Independent city of Buenos Aires and the city of Parana (Entre Rios). But its impact in Argentinean pedagogy has been extended by the hundreds of teachers that have been motivated by the central ideas of this proposal and have participated in many ways of reflection and improvement in boarding the logosophical pedagogy.

For many years, different levels from government have been supporting the accomplishment and actions of the Logosófica Foundation.

(Follows a list of several national and international ones, omitted for short, that can be found in the original document referred at the beginning)

The permanent activities of diffusion that are offered to the community are: - Regullar Courses of individual and collective Information Weekly informative presentations Conferences in diverse cultural and social scopes among which, the almost permanent presence in the hall Jorge Luis Borges the National Library, for the International day of Logosophy (11 of August) – Constant Presence in newspapers, radial and television

As much by the force and value of its ideas, as by its proposal of protagonism of people in the improvement of the community, the logosophical thought forms an encouraging message and a concrete route in the present process of repair of the deep social crisis that our society has lived. And the Logosophical Foundation –in pro of Human Improvement-, organization dedicated to the continuous action of diffusion, education and increase of this wisdom, initiated by the clarified vision of the Argentine thinker Carlos B. González Pecotche, deserves the recognition of its disinterested work. And for that reason I ask for to my pairs the approval of the present project of resolution.

PROCEEDING: Deputies - CONSIDERATION And APPROVAL: 08/11/2006 APPROVED — 200.125.35.230 01:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)J.Dusio

The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jdusio (talk • contribs) 14:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Def: Larousse Editions. Madrid. Spain. 1992
PEQUEÑO LAROUSE ILUSTRADO Larousse Editions. Madrid. Spain. 1992

González Pecotche (Carlos Bernardo), Argentine educator (1901-1963), creator of the doctrine of Logosophy (logosofía).

Logosophy (Logosofía) f. Ethical-philosophical doctrine, held by Argentine educator C. B. González Pecotche, that by means of its own method, conducts man to realize the knowledge of himself and his self improvement through a process of conscious evolution — 200.125.35.230 01:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)By J.Dusio

The preceding comment was added by Jdusio (talk • contribs) 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

---Thanks for adding the last two references. I can see they were both translated from Spanish. I changed the word "defended" to "held" ("sustained" might also apply) in the last one because the meaning of "defend" in this context is different from the equivalent word in the original quote in Spanish (in translator's jargon, those two words are "false friends") 72.177.118.252 16:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite done
I have made a major rewrite of this article, trying to present it on a neutral form, easier to understand and including several citations, based on the same article edited on the Portuguese Wikipedia. I am open to further suggestions to improve any part of it. --Gtondello (talk) 02:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Heavy on primary sources
This article remains very heavily reliant on primary sources ( González Pecotche's own writings and logosophy institution advertising) rather than scholarly, independent sources that offer both summaries and criticism of logosophy. I'd emphasize the criticism part of that, too; surely if this is a world-wide movement, some criticism has been offered? If so, let's get in the article. Cheers, -- Khazar (talk) 07:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite advertising, I do agree it´s quite reliant on primary sources, but we're exaggerating to call it "advertising"... --167.61.83.195 (talk) 04:01, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I have been tracking this article for expansion, but the main issue remains that while there are several secondary sources in Portuguese and Spanish, there are not many (that I know of) in English, French and other languages. I am following the current editing of the article in Spanish and will help with referring/translating existing secondary sources after it is stable. I currently have one main reference by a Sociology professor from University of Boston, Bernard Phillips. He has briefly reviewed Pecotche's ideas on education in one of his books. 75.50.59.26 (talk) 01:34, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds terrific--thanks, Khazar (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Logosophy does not fit the Esotericism definition from Wikipedia
A bot seems to have classified this as esoteric content, I request a citation or removal of such categorization. --167.61.83.195 (talk) 04:03, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree, please provide citation or remove classification --Akma72 (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I got a notification about this classification the other day; I also do not agree with it. --cmendonca 108.253.244.38 (talk) 21:51, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
 * please remove if there is no citation in a day or so, lets just be bold here as wikipedia policy suggests in this cases please --83.244.151.146 (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Removed as discussed. I think this talk page needs some cleanup and better arrangement, will see if I can improve as well --179.27.65.250 (talk) 18:29, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for doing it. Where did this classification come from? The editor provided no explanation… maybe just gut feeling?
 * Sometime ago another editor had classified Logosophy as "New Age" (which is the modern version of "Esotericism"). As I showed above in this talk page, this wasn't the case, and later I found it being a kind of Humanism. Why was this ignored? The editor might have avoided this mistake, had he read this talk page, understood that Logosophy is not New Age because its contents are incompatible with it, and that since the classification “New Age” is included under "Esotericism", therefore Logosophy is not Esotericism.
 * On top of that, I do remember reading somewhere that Pecotche explicitly discouraged his students from pursuing those things that are classified under Esotericism in Wikipedia (especially the Paranormal, Occultism and Spiritualism), as they have no scientific basis. I will look for that reference again, it has been a while. --cmendonca 2602:306:CFDF:4260:B021:B726:7934:B204 (talk) 02:26, 19 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Independently from what Pecotche might have said, it would still be from a primary source, which is not as good as a secondary or tertiary source, but better than no source at all like in the case of this edit… in any case, this was properly removed, since the editor needs to provide citations for such classification, particularly if nothing in the article suggests such thing. Regards --Akma72 (talk) 16:04, 19 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I recommend translating the Spanish version of the article into English. It is larger and has plenty of tertiary sources. Taking into account that this philosophy started in Argentina, therefore it is natural to find more tertiary references in Spanish than in English, so translating it would take care of the “Primary sources” advert which does not exist in the Spanish version. --AstorPiazzolla (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)