Talk:London Borough of Croydon

GA Review
Trying to anticipate forthcoming objections to GA status for this article, I've identified the following challenges pertaining to layout only:


 * The lead has five sections, a breach of WP:LEAD. The last sentence would be better off amalgamating with another paragraph.
 * The units of measurement in the lead should be linked.
 * There is alot of white space and text warping generated as a result of images being bunched up. Consider introducing a "|upright" field into the formatting, or move some from right to left.
 * I'm not a great fan of the ultra-strict stance on images, but I'm not comfortable with Image:Kiss-100-logo.jpg being used under fair use here. A photo of their HQ would be better anyway.
 * Unless there is good reason not to (i.e. the London WikiProject has its own recommendations for its boroughs) I'd be more inclined to follow the WP:UKCITIES standard layout. The Background section doesn't work for me, and doubt it will for the reviewer(s).

This isn't the review as such, I just thought I'd offer some commentary. Hope that helps for now, -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I concur with the statements above, and these should be addressed before GA status is assigned. Furthermore, here are some additional comments:


 * Rename the 'background' section to 'history' (basically all that's involved here is renaming the main header to history and eliminating the second-level header. The section as a whole is largely under-referenced, and needs more inline citations to comply with the Good article criteria.


 * Too much white-space in the governance section. The whole section can really be condensed a lot to read better and more cohesively, and I'd strongly recommend getting rid of the tables of political party elections -- they just don't offer anything of real value to the article (focus on the individuals that are in office in the government, not on parties).


 * The main article link to the Croydon local elections article is out of place and looks awkward in the middle of the article. These links should only be found at the very top of sections, not in the middle.


 * Why are there subsections for each of the main buildings under the governance section? The focus on this section should be on the actual government, and branches of government, not on various buildings. Many of these images can be removed from the article entirely, and the subsections are unnecessary. Again, the whole governance section needs to be made more cohesive and brought together better. I know I mentioned this before in the last GA Review. Did anyone actually read this?


 * Town twinning and sister cities is usually covered in a separate main section located near the end of the article, not under government. Call the section 'town twinning' or 'sister cities'. It's also quite awkward to begin the section with a single bullet point and then have an explanation of that afterwards. Here, I think the bullet point is totally unnecessary and the only reason I can think of that it's here is to allow editors to use their precious little 'flagicon' template for the Netherlands, which is not exactly the best reason for that.


 * The geography section is ok, but the 'roads' section is kind of bland and boring. I'd recommend changing the title of this to 'cityscape' and integrating this information with the information on neighborhoods. Cityscape should talk about the parts of the town and how they are connected, and not just be a prose listing of the roads.


 * Why are there two temperature charts in the climate section? This seems horribly redundant. Get rid of the one to the right and keep the one at the bottom. Double-check the source to make sure the numbers are still accurate. Other than this, the climate section actually looks ok.


 * Why does the neighborhoods section begin with a rather boring listing of postal codes? This is just generic information that really doesn't have to do with the culture and integration of neighborhoods, and can be eliminated. The Infobox city has an option for listing postal codes in it, in a basic list format, so it would be preferable to convert this article's infobox to that, and provide the postal codes there. Also, integrate this section in with 'roads', above.


 * More crowding issues. What is a wikimedia commons link for Offices in Croydon doing to the immediate right of the demographics section? It's crowded between to images at the right and looks pretty bad. And I'm not sure what the template has to do with the article content.


 * Demographics is written fairly well; there are a few external links within the article text that should be removed, per WP:MOS.


 * 'Places of interest' and 'Transport' are largely devoid of reference citations.


 * The link to the london subway map overlays a section divider, and is crowded between to images and article text. It could probably just be deleted outright; wikipedia is not a directory.


 * Reference formatting issue in education section: The link to http://www.croydonplaycare.co.uk/ is not an actual reference citation, and just an external link. Unnecessary.


 * Lots of external links within article text in the religion section -- these should be removed per manual of style. Only internal wikilinks should appear in article prose and external links belong only in the external links section.


 * Remove the logos from the media section; they are not necessary when talking about this information, and do not fall under the 'fair use' clause of copyright law.


 * These are the big issues with the article. I'm rather surprised that there are still so many issues with this article, since it was mentioned this before in the last GA Review|reviewed before by several editors, including myself, and apparently it appears at first glance that most of the issues were not followed. I would strongly recommend taking a look at the guideline WP:UKCITIES and trying to make the article closely adhere to that format. This article at present just does not meet the Good article criteria, and cannot be passed as-is. Sorry. Dr. Cash (talk) 23:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Climate chart taken off
Is there anywhere else where this could go? Pafcool2 (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Croydon and Gatwick weatherbox

Image copyright problem with Image:Cherryorchard.JPG
The image Image:Cherryorchard.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * Image:DH 91 Albatross - Fortuna - Croydon Airport 1939.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --22:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violation
I believe I have found a copyright violation under the Education sub-heading on the article:

"The Croydon Playcare Company (aka Gingerbread Corner) was the first Latchkey sceme in England set up in 1976 and was then called Croydon Gingerbread Charities. Its main aim was to provide quality childcare for single parents of children aged between 5 and 11 during school holidays and after school. Now almost 30 years later Playcare has grown and now caters for children up to age 16 and includes school pick up and drop off, a nursery and 11 Plus youth club."

It seems to have been taken directly from the opening page of the website Croydon Playcare with a few changes to words. To be on the safe side I have deleted it and doubt that it is notable enough to go back on this page anyway. Pafcool2 (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Real Digital International
reason it will be removed is non-notable company (no article) and POV description. ninety:one 18:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you should say so when you are first doing it, so we know. What's so non-notable about an international company in a London borough? Dieter Simon (talk) 01:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And if there is a description which is in the company's favour just remove that part of it to make it factual. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * i didn't remove it! we can't list every company, international or not, on wikipedia. i'm sure there are many hundreds of international companies situated in LB of C, but we only mention the very notable ones. ninety:one 10:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason I put Real Digital was because it is notable enough. IOts a large multinational company which has headquarters in Croydon. Of course we can't add every single company to the economy section (don't just add random shops), but if there is a multinational company with influence in Croydon, why not? Pafcool2 (talk) 16:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * in comparison to the other companies mentioned, it shouldn't be here. it would be ok on the Economy of Croydon article. i think the economy section in this article goes into too much detail anyway, and most of it would be better moved to the economy article. ninety:one 20:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Dubstep
Shouldn't dubstep be mentioned in the culture section of the page? After all, dubstep was created there, and it is still one of the best sources of creativity in this music (primarily through Skream and Benga, both residents of Croydon, but also through other artists such as Breakage)? 188.26.163.195 (talk) 10:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC) Alex

--Dubbytantor (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)It should be mentioned. Dubstep is one of the most remarkable musical genres of 2000's.--Dubbytantor (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

GA Review
I'm beginning preparations for another GA Review. Beginning with a peer review. Nothing has been submitted yet - but I'm getting the article into order once again. So, in accordance with the GA Review back in 2007 and 2008, I have extended the lead section and have gotten rid of the lists of schools and additionally the bishops. Both can be found on their respective articles. Help on updating some information would be appreciated. Lots of the economic stuff is back form 2007, so check if there have been any reports since then. Let's hope this time will be a winner! I'll update this section when any more info regarding a GA review comes to light. Thanks, Pafcool2 (talk) 23:13, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Population
I am not a Wikipedia editor so sorry if this comment is out of place.

According to london.gov.uk Barnet became London's most populous borough in 2009. http://data.london.gov.uk/datastore/applications/population-estimates-1961-2009 This may have since changed but at a training course held by Croydon Council last week they referred to Croydon as the second most populated London borough. Please look into this and adjust if necessary. 188.222.127.231 (talk) 18:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.222.127.231 (talk) 18:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Mid 2010 population estimates for London boroughs are here It shows Barnet at 348,200 and Croydon at 345,600. They seem a bit confused putting Greenwich in Outer London and Haringey and Newham in Inner London though, or have I missed something? Lozleader (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Greenwich is in Outer London, it is part of the old county of Kent and was not part of the County of London before the changes in 1965. Haringey was an amalgam of two Municipal Boroughs of the former county of Middlesex and were therefore not in the County of London either. Normally the definition of inner and outer London was there former inclusion in the old County of London set up in the 1880s and which was divided into Metropolitan Boroughs. Newham is a bit odd, since it straddles the old County boundary. West Ham was, like Croydon, a County Borough and therefore not a part of its nominal county; Newham also has other municipal boroughs from Middlesex within its modern boundaries and one of the old Metropolitan Boroughs - arguably an Inner London Borough! When the Greater London Council was established under the 1963 Act there was also another new authority born with it, the Inner London Education Authority (ILEA), which took over the educational services from the old County of London (LCC) meaning that, unlike Croydon and the other outer London Boroughs, the Inner London Boroughs did not have an education committee or any schools of their own.Moonraker55 (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Economic History
In the introductory article there is the following statement: "The borough has a long history which is based mainly around the economy of the area. The economic strength of Croydon dates back mainly to Croydon Airport which was a major factor in the development of Croydon as a business centre." My comments are that it is true that Croydon has a long history and was, like any town or city, built on its economic strengths. The following sentence is however, pure twaddle! Croydon airport was in operation from around 1910 (I personally knew a worker there working in 1911) and its life ended in 1954 - a mere forty odd years. Croydon owes its economic strengths to a number of factors, none of which includes the aerodrome (as it was actually called contemporaneously). Croydon was a manor belonging to the Archbishops of Canterbury - that in itself would attract trade. The Church Street area, the original 'high street' developed because of the Archbishop's palace there. The recorded history of Croydon reaches back at least to the ninth century, when a Synod of the Church was held there - emphasizing the importance of that connection. The physical geography is the dominant factor - the town sits on the edge of the Wandle Valley and with the Southbourne they occupy the valley bottom that runs roughly north-south and which pierces the North Downs. Croydon, because of the Archbishops was granted fairs and markets making it for most of the history of Surrey the largest and most important town in Surrey after Southwark. The Parish Church was a Minster Church which meant that throughout the mediaeval period every parishioner of every subsidiary parish in the Archdeaconry - Merstham, Warlingham, Caterham, Shirley, Addington, and all the other places nearby, would come to Croydon to celebrate the great Holy Days of the Church calendar. The parish of Croydon was large and it provided a great deal of potential for produce. The trade in Walnuts, the fruit and the wood, were huge for a very long period, as an example. The trade in clays, for bricks, in gravels and in other minerals were also quite large. Croydon was host to a canal which was served by two horse drawn railways, the first and third public railways in the country, indeed the world. The later one linked Merstham and Godstone (with their quarries) to the canal side near Reeves' Corner and the other linked from the same place to the Thames at Wandsworth (The Surrey Iron Railway). Church Road and Tamworth Road owe their existence to the line of tracks serving the old railways and West Croydon station was part of the canal. I remember as a boy in West Croydon digging up 'navvies' clay pipes alongside the old canal bed near Spurgeon's Bridge. These things were really active and for many years profitable transport services. Then came steam - the area that is the Borough of Croydon today boasted two dozen railway stations! I think what I am trying to illustrate is that the economic wealth of Croydon pre-dated the airport by many hundreds of years - the fact that the town boasted three department stores (Allder's, Grant's and Kennard's) speaks volumes for the relative prosperity of the town and all established before the aerodrome was even a possibility (that is before heavier than air flight had been achieved!). Then there is the fact that the town was also host to such items as one of the two officer cadet training colleges for the Honorable East India Company.

I have transcribed much of the 1871 census and have compared with the 1881 census, the population exploded around this time with, anecdotally, just 10% of the 1881 population being native Croydonians, and that includes a great number of children born to incomers in the previous decade. Croydon was becoming home to the commuting professionals of London - stock-brokers, solicitors and barristers, even the editor of the 'Sporting Life' lived here. Why not - perhaps it was the attraction of the riotous fairs on the old Fair Field? Perhaps the attraction of the races at Epsom or Woodside? Croydon's economic past is manifestly not based on a forty year episode late on in its very long history. It is based on its geographic position above the gap in the North Downs (the attraction of Brighton to the Prince regent would have been much less had the road through the downs not have existed)the fact of the manor being in the hands of an important person in the shape of the Archbishop (these were political figures as well as religious); that it was a large area that supported a range of potential economic outputs - minerals, wood, charcoal, cherries, walnuts, and the town also had the Minster Church. I have probably labored the point long enough. Moonraker55 (talk) 02:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

History
reading the article there are factual errors that ought to have been avoided. The 'original' Whitgift school, for example, was not demolished to make way for the Whitgift Centre. Part of the original Whitgift school ,a small affair, is still extant adjacent to the Hospital of the Holy Trinity in George Street. The school occupying the grand old school that was once pride of place behind North End and facing across the lawns and the railings onto Wellesley Road was the Whitgift Middle School that had occupied the buildings vacated by Whitgift School in the 1930s when they took over the old manorial estate of Haling Manor in South Croydon. This old school was not Tudor in origins! The Middle School removed to Shirley Park where their name was changed to the Trinity School of John Whitgift. However, between the occupation of the old school in George Street and the grand old school where the shopping centre now stands, there were other schools along the way. The immediate predecessor to the Middle School was on Church Road almost opposite the bottom of Scarbrook Hill.

There are other similar things that undermine the authenticity of the page as an authoritative statement of history.Moonraker55 (talk) 03:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Old page history
Some old page history that used to be at the title "London Borough of Croydon" is now at Talk:London Borough of Croydon/Old history. Graham 87 12:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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