Talk:Long Island Rail Road/Archive 1

Untitled
Moved this page to the correct title of Long Island Rail Road.

--Morven 19:40, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Edit of article Long Island Railroad
Added facts to the Mainline. Removed reference to "Babylon Branch" (there is no such branch other than in customer Timetables) and combined the Montauk Branch facts with now "defunct" "Babylon Branch" facts. Added Atlantic Branch. Edited Long Beach Branch (does not split from the Montauk Branch). Edited West Hempstead Branch. Edited Far Rock Branch. dunk me 14:45, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More passenger than freight
I removed this:
 * "making the LIRR the only Class I Railroad in the U.S. with more passenger than freight service."

The LIRR is certainly not a Class I; at least it's not in any Class I list I've ever seen. Is there a way to fix this statement? As it stands, even if the LIRR was a Class I, Amtrak has only passenger service. --SPUI (talk) 11:17, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know about it being a Class I, but, unlike most of Amtrak (ie outside the Northeast Corridor), the LIRR actually owns the tracks. In general, it seems that commuter and Amtrak service is run on tracks primarly used for freight.  Oh, and Amtrak at least did do freight.

Schedules
The schedules on the official site are annoyingly incomplete, not showing stuff like whether south shore trains go via St. Albans or Locust Manor. Is there any pattern, or does every branch have trains via each? Also, which branches have trains going to Long Island City via either path? --SPUI (talk) 04:11, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Babylon trains ordinarily go via St. Albans (Montauk Branch), others via Locust Manor (Atlantic Branch). There are exceptions, and the ETT (GOs) specify which particular takes what. This is also true of east end Montauk trains west of Babylon. Some always take the Babylon Branch, some the Central. This is also spelled out in the ETT. You can figure out which LIC trains use the Lower Montauk Line from the public TT by seeing which Jamaica arrivals/departures from/to LIC don't have a Hunterspoint stop. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 09:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Category
"Government of New York City" is not appropriate. MTA is a state agency. --Nelson Ricardo 03:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Expansion
The LIRR is the busiest commuter railroad in the US, and yet there are relatively few articles that detail the branches and stations. Other smaller commuter railroad systems have many detailed articles about their stations and branches, like Tri-Rail, SEPTA Regional Rail, MBTA Commuter Rail, and New Jersey Transit. Even the LIRR's sister, Metro-North Railroad has a fair amount of child branch and station articles. So far, the only detailed branches are the Port Washington, Far Rockaway and Atlantic branches. I have a fair amount of knowledge of the LIRR system, but I don't have the time to build all the needed remaining articles. I may take a shot on the Port Jeff branch soon, as it is one of the busiest. I hope someone is enthusiastic enough to expand the LIRR system, especially for the other busy branches: the Ronkonkoma, the Babylon, the Montauk, the Long Beach, etc. --Tinlinkin 05:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've created the branch line articles, now what's needed is text for the main articles. Tinlinkin 05:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
It would be nice to have ridership information on the infobox, according to http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/investor/pdf/2005_annual_report.pdf for 2005 there were 80130517 riders in 2005, this is rivaling many radip transit systems in the US. The daily ridership is therefore 219536, but I think average weekday might be a more useful figure. --JVittes 15:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Jamaica station bus connections
The information presented in is incomplete. This is a station information page for Jamaica. A Queens bus map will also confirm all the bus routes that serve the Jamaica LIRR station.

Bus routes: MTA Bus: Q6, Q8, Q9, Q25, Q34, Q40, Q41, Q60, Q65 (9 routes) MTA NYCT Bus: Q20 A/B,24,30,31,43,44 (7 routes, splitting Q20A and Q20B) This time I will include the Jamaica Av. buses (Q54 and Q56) as they are 1-2 blocks from the station, for a total of 18 bus routes. Tinlinkin 21:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

L-I-R-R
In the first sentence, when it says that people refer to it as "L-I-double-R". Does that mean that people literally say "El, eye, double, arr"? Because no one says that, in my experience. People do say "el, eye, arr, arr," though, and I wasn't sure if that's what was meant by what is written. Or has anyone heard people actually use the word "double" when talking about the LIRR? 69.123.177.197 19:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've lived in New York for almost 18 years, and I hear references to the "L-I-double-R" quite often. Larry V (talk &#124; contribs) 02:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Station Infobox
As the number of articles about specific LIRR stations is growing, we are beginning to need a comprehensive LIRR station infobox. There is already an infobox at template:start LIRR box; however, it is inadequate, as it only includes the line, previous station on the line, and next station on the line. There ought to be an infobox that provides information similar to that found on the branch articles, such as Location/Intersection, Station Link (to MTA website), distance to Penn Station, and connections to other bus/subway services, as well as perhaps number of platforms/tracks, services such as taxis available at the station, and if possible usage. Anyone willing to volunteer? If such an infobox already exists, it should be brought to wider usage in station articles. Robert 07:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a Template:LIRR line (a special version of Template:Rail line) which wasn't used in any articles until I mondified it and inserted it in some articles. As for the infobox, I think it's a good idea. I wouldn't put taxi services in the infobox, and transit connections seem to be controversial (see WP:NOT a travel guide). I may not get to do it right away, so you'll have to wait for me if no one does it first. Tinlinkin 16:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Many, Many, Many subway station articles uses connections in their boxes. I don't see it becoming a problem. Pacific Coast Highway {blah • Spinach crisis '06! • WP:NYCS} 22:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that I've been dragging my feet about this issue. An infobox is primarily a stylistic device and is not required to build articles. In fact, creating and using an infobox for most LIRR station articles at this point will just be redundant to existing prose. And since they are stubs, the redundancy will look especially bad. So my priority instead is to create and improve existing articles. Tinlinkin 02:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Map
I've added a map from the mta website to this article and also removed the tag classifying the article as needing a map. Robert 21:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've re-added the map needed tag, as the MTA map is fair use, and should be replaced by a Free alternative as soon as possible. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 01:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think we're going to get a good free use map. This article is perfectly within the terms of fair use. Robert 20:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's totally possible to make a good freely-licensed map. See River Line, Washington Metro, or CSX. --NE2 00:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

M1/M3
The caption for the image Image:Long Island Rail Road.jpg on the article was just recently changed to state that it was an M1 car instaid of an M3 which was written there. I was under the impression that it was an M3 becuase they are newer; however, it is virtually impossible to tell from the image since the M1 and M3 cars are nearly identical. So, perhaps the caption to the image should read "M1/M3" which is pretty common in other places.

M1/M3 (railcar)

Robert 20:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Closed stations
It's nice to see that someone is filling in the station listings on the branch line articles with closed stations. But now I kindly ask that the date (or the year at least) of closure be added (e.g. closed March 16, 1998). Also, add italics to the existing bold to indicate closed stations, for further avoidance of confusion with current service.

Example:

I's still refining the convention (and anybody can chime in with further suggestions), so this may change in the near future, but I think this is adequate for now.

In an additional note, individual station articles should not link to abandoned stations at the moment, only existing services. Thanks. Tinlinkin 04:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok.

Full list of former lines
This information is mostly from a 1941 PRR map.
 * Main Line
 * North Shore Freight Branch
 * Montauk Cut-off
 * Woodside Branch
 * North Side Branch or Port Washington Branch
 * Whitestone Branch
 * Flushing Branch
 * Glendale Cut-off
 * Springfield Branch or Cedarhurst Cut-off
 * Belmont Park Branch
 * Creedmoor Branch
 * Central Branch
 * Hempstead Branch
 * Oyster Bay Branch
 * Bethpage Branch
 * Northport Branch
 * Wading River Branch or Port Jefferson Branch
 * Camp Upton Branch
 * Manor Branch or Manorville Branch


 * Montauk Branch
 * Bushwick Branch
 * Evergreen Branch
 * Bay Ridge Branch
 * Manhattan Beach Branch
 * Rockaway Beach Branch
 * Atlantic Avenue Branch or Atlantic Branch
 * Far Rockaway Branch
 * Valley Stream Branch or West Hempstead Branch
 * Long Beach Branch
 * Sag Harbor Branch

--NE2 01:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

East Bushwick Branch is former? Didn't they have a small locomotive get loose at Fresh Pond Yard a couple years ago, smash a track welding truck, and roll over the English Kill bridge before a FDNY Lieutenant hopped aboard and pulled the brake? A couple months ago the tracks east and west of a busy grade crossing, less than a mile from the end of the line, were showing bare metal, not all rust. Jim.henderson 02:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry - this is a list of all lines. --NE2 04:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added all these lines but the Woodside Branch (which was abandoned before 1891) to the list in the article. --NE2 17:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Change of Image?
Was their a fair-use violation with the old map? I think the previous one, the one from MTA, is better than the current map. Does this image bring it in line with other rail lines? --Meadowbrook 05:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, the old one did not satisfy fair use criterion #1: "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information." I think a separate schematic showing the stations would be more useful than adding the stations to a scale map. --NE2 05:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've now made that schematic. --NE2 15:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to lie, that's a cool image. What program did you use?  Would it be possible to include zones? --Meadowbrook 18:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I used Macromedia Freehand to create the map. Do you have a list of the zones? I can certainly add them. --NE2 18:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Electrification
--NE2 15:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * July 26, 1905: Atlantic Branch, Rockaway Beach Branch: Flatbush-Woodhaven-Rockaway Park
 * August 29 or August 30, 1905: Atlantic Branch: Woodhaven-Jamaica or Rockaway Junction
 * September 22 or October 2, 1905: Main Line, Belmont Park Branch: Jamaica or Rockaway Junction-Belmont Park
 * October 16, 1905: Atlantic Branch: Jamaica-Springfield Junction
 * November 1, 1905: Main Line: Belmont Park Junction-Queens Village
 * December 1, 1905: Far Rockaway Branch: Hammels-Far Rockaway
 * December 11, 1905: Far Rockaway Branch: Far Rockaway-Valley Stream
 * May 17, 1906: Atlantic Branch: Springfield Junction-Valley Stream
 * 1906: Cedarhurst Cut-off: Springfield Junction-Cedarhurst (not opened)
 * May 26, 1908: Main Line, old Central Branch, Hempstead Branch: Queens Village-Garden City-Hempstead
 * June 16, 1910: Main Line, Rockaway Beach Branch: Long Island City-Rego Park-Woodhaven
 * June 23, 1910: Main Line: Rego Park-Jamaica (or Montauk Branch?)
 * August 26 or September, 1910: Long Beach Branch: Valley Stream-Long Beach
 * September 8, 1910: into Penn Station
 * 1911 or 1912: West Hempstead Branch: Country Life Press to Franklin Avenue
 * October 22, 1912: Port Washington Branch, Whitestone Branch: Winfield-Flushing-Whitestone Landing
 * October 21, 1913: Port Washington Branch: Flushing-Port Washington
 * June 23, 1917: old Central Branch: Hempstead Crossing-Salisbury Plains - then 1919 to Mitchell Field?
 * May 1924: Main Line: Hillside-Floral Park - two additional tracks
 * May 20 or May 21, 1925: Montauk Branch: Rockaway Junction-Babylon
 * October 19 or October 20, 1926: West Hempstead Branch, old Hempstead Branch, Main Line: Valley Stream-Mineola-Floral Park
 * July 8, 1927: Bay Ridge Branch: Fresh Pond-Bay Ridge
 * June 1934: Oyster Bay Branch: Mineola to East Williston
 * October 13, 1970: Main Line, Port Jefferson Branch: Mineola-Huntington
 * 1988: Main Line: Hicksville-Ronkonkoma
 * removals
 * February 19, 1932: Whitestone Branch: Flushing-Whitestone
 * October 2, 1955: Far Rockaway Branch: Hammels-Far Rockaway
 * December 31, 1958: Bay Ridge Branch: Fresh Pond-Bay Ridge
 * old Central Branch: Hempstead Crossing-Salisbury Plains
 * West Hempstead Branch, old Hempstead Branch: West Hempstead-Mineola
 * Rockaway Beach Branch: Rego Park-Rockaway Park

Presidents
I think the list of Presidents should be split into its own article, e.g. List of Presidents of the Long Island Rail Road. Mackensen (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not stopping you. --NE2 17:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, if you have any other suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them. I'm hoping to bring this to featured article quality. I believe the "PRR Chronology" references will have to be replaced with more reliable sources for that to happen. --NE2 18:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've requested a few books on the LIRR through interlibrary loan; hopefully at least one will arrive. --NE2 06:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Full list of affiliated or predecessor railroads
This is nested by mergers and reorganizations except where a company was not merged.
 * Long Island Rail Road inc. 1834
 * New York and Jamaica Railroad inc. 1859, merged 1860
 * Hicksville and Cold Spring Branch Railroad inc. 1853, merged 1870
 * Central Railroad of Long Island inc. 1871, merged 1879
 * Central Railroad Extension inc. 1873, merged 1882
 * Long Island City and Flushing Railroad inc. 1881, merged 1889
 * Flushing and North Side Railroad inc. 1868, reorg. 1881
 * Flushing and Woodside Railroad inc. 1864, merged 1871
 * North Side Railroad of Long Island merged???
 * North Shore Railroad inc. 1863, merged 1884
 * Whitestone and Westchester Railroad inc. 1871, merged 1887
 * Newtown and Flushing Railroad inc. 1871, merged 1889?
 * Brooklyn and Montauk Railroad inc. 1879, merged 1889
 * Southern Railroad of Long Island inc. 1874, reorg. 1879 and 1880
 * South Side Railroad of Long Island inc. 1860, reorg. 1874
 * Hunters Point and South Side Railroad inc. 1870, merged 1872
 * Rockaway Railway inc. 1871, merged 1872
 * Far Rockaway Branch Railroad inc. 1868, merged 1882
 * New York and Flushing Railroad inc. 1859, merged 1891
 * Flushing Railroad inc. 1852, reorg. 1859
 * Metropolitan Ferry Company inc. 1887, merged 1892
 * East River Ferry Company inc. 1860, reorg. 1887
 * Stewart Railroad uninc., merged 1892
 * New York Bay Extension Railroad inc. 1892, merged 1902
 * Montauk Extension Railroad inc. 1893, merged 1902
 * Great Neck and Port Washington Railroad inc. 1896, merged 1902
 * New York and Long Beach Railroad inc. 1880, merged 1907
 * Long Beach Marine Railway inc. 1881, merged 1886?
 * Jamaica and South Shore Railroad inc. 1903, merged 1912
 * New York and Rockaway Railroad inc. 1870, reorg. 1903
 * Oyster Bay Extension Railroad inc. 1886, merged 1913
 * Long Island Railroad, North Shore Branch inc. 1892, merged 1921
 * Smithtown and Port Jefferson Railroad inc. 1870, merged 1892
 * New York and Rockaway Beach Railway inc. 1887, merged 1922
 * New York, Woodhaven and Rockaway Railroad inc. 1877, reorg. 1887
 * New York, Brooklyn and Manhattan Beach Railway inc. 1885, merged 1925
 * New York, Bay Ridge and Jamaica Railroad inc. 1875, merged 1885
 * New York and Manhattan Beach Railway inc. 1876, merged 1885
 * Long Island City and Manhattan Beach Railroad inc. 1883, merged 1885
 * Glendale and East River Railroad inc. 1874, merged 1928


 * Flushing, North Shore and Central Railroad inc. 1874, disintegrated???
 * Flushing and North Side Railroad inc. 1868, merged 1874*
 * Central Railroad of Long Island inc. 1871, merged 1874*
 * Central Railroad Extension inc. 1873, merged 1874*
 * Whitestone and Westchester Railroad inc. 1871, merged 1874*
 * North Shore Railroad inc. 1863, merged 1874*
 * North Shore and Port Washington Railroad merged 1874
 * Roslyn and Huntington Railroad inc. 1874, merged 1874


 * Branches
 * Degnon Terminal Railroad merged 1928???
 * Southern Hempstead Branch Railroad unknown
 * Valley Stream Branch Railroad unknown
 * New York and Long Island Terminal Railway unknown
 * New York and Hempstead Railroad inc. 1871
 * Hempstead and Rockaway Railroad merged 1871
 * New York and Hempstead Plains Railroad merged 1871

--NE2 03:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Streetcar and boat lines
 * Atlantic Avenue Railroad
 * Brooklyn and Jamaica Railway inc. 1867??
 * Brooklyn Central and Jamaica Railroad inc. 1860, reorg. 1867??
 * Brooklyn and Jamaica Railroad inc. 1832, merged 1860
 * Brooklyn Central Railroad inc. 1859, merged 1860
 * Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad inc. 1874
 * Greenwood and Coney Island Railroad merged 1874
 * Park Avenue Railroad merged 1874
 * New York and Coney Island Railroad inc. 1879
 * Huntington Railroad
 * Glen Cove Railroad dissolved 1925
 * Nassau County Railway dissolved 1926
 * Ocean Electric Railway dissolved 1928
 * Montauk Steamboat Company dissolved 1929
 * Montauk Water Company dissolved 1929
 * Long Island Consolidated Electrical Companies
 * Nassau Electric Railroad
 * South Brooklyn Railway
 * Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island Railroad
 * Brooklyn, Bath and Coney Island Railway
 * Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railroad
 * Prospect Park and Flatbush Railroad
 * New York and Coney Island Railroad
 * Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad
 * Ocean Electric Railroad
 * New York Consolidated Railroad
 * Nassau Electric Railroad

LIRR station succession boxes
For a discussion about the succession boxes used in LIRR station articles, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains and its subsections #More about services vs. lines and #Further LIRR discussion. Tinlinkin 14:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Streetcar lines
Some of this information is from and. Some alignments are from. It appears Jamaica Junction was at Brewer Boulevard and Conduit Avenue. --NE2 08:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Long Island Electric Railway: Drew Street to 95th Street/Liberty Avenue on 101st Avenue and Rockaway Boulevard? or maybe simply along Liberty Avenue, since the line was abandoned in 1914
 * Long Island Electric Railway: 95th Street to 160th Street Jamaica on Liberty Avenue, Liverpool Street, and South Road
 * Long Island Electric Railway: 160th Street via Jamaica Junction and Hook Creek to Far Rockaway on South Road, Brewer Boulevard, Rockaway Boulevard, Mott Avenue, Lawrence Avenue, Wanser Avenue, Lord Avenue, and private ROW onto the LIRR
 * New York and Long Island Traction Company: 95th Street/Liberty Avenue via Jamaica Junction, Rosedale, and Valley Stream to Freeport on Rockaway Boulevard, South Conduit Avenue, and Sunrise Highway in Queens, and on Atlantic Avenue, Bedell Street, and Main Street in Freeport
 * New York and Long Island Traction Company? Long Island Electric Railway?: 160th Street Jamaica to Belmont Park on 160th Street, Jamaica Avenue, and Hempstead Avenue
 * New York and Long Island Traction Company: Belmont Park to Hempstead
 * New York and Long Island Traction Company: 212th Street Queens Village via Mineola and Hempstead to Freeport via Jamaica Avenue in Queens, and on Nassau Road and Main Street in Freeport
 * Ocean Electric Railway: Far Rockaway via Hammels to Rockaway Park on LIRR
 * Ocean Electric Railway: Hammels (Beach 76th Street?) to Neponsit (Beach 149th Street?) on Rockaway Beach Boulevard and possibly other streets
 * Seashore Municipal Railroad??: Freeport (Atlantic Avenue) south to Scott's Dock between Miller Avenue and Ocean Avenue
 * Jamaica and South Shore Railroad??: Far Rockaway to Roche's Beach on private ROW from the LIRR, Beach 20th Street, New Haven Avenue/Brookhaven Avenue, and Beach 19th Street
 * LIRR: Garden City to Salisbury Plain on LIRR
 * Glen Cove Railroad: Glen Cove Landing to Sea Cliff Landing
 * Nassau County Railway: Sea Cliff Landing to Sea Cliff Station
 * Huntington Railroad: Huntington Harbor via Huntington Station, Schwab Road, and Melville to Amityville Dock
 * Babylon Railroad: Amityville to Babylon to Fire Island Dock
 * Northport Traction Company: Northport Station to Northport Harbor

History From 1901-1945
I thought the history from 1901 to 1945 was entirely too brief and excluded important parts of the story during some of the railroad's most important years. I added a couple paragraphs that I hope will ameliorate the problem. Most of the information comes from the research I did for a couple of articles published in the last two issues of the Long Island Historical Journal. I apologize for submitting them anonymously; I had not quite figured out how the system works. Sean Kass 05:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for contributing; your additions look good. I hope to receive Steel Rails to the Sunrise through interlibrary loan soon, and will work more on the history, both pre-PRR and during and post-PRR. --NE2 05:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)