Talk:Long poem

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Long Poem Team: I'm not sure if you noticed, but professor Jon Beasly-Murray is actually pointing out where you need citations. he is the conceptual ringmaster of the groundbreaking Murder, Mayhem, and Madness project, the first project for the FA Team. And he is now spreading the wealth -- very, very cool. Jgroom (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Important: be sure to look at the history page of the Long poem article and note the comments Jon is making in regards to the Wikipedia manual of style and best practices for presenting an article. He actually annotates the changes so you can work from his advice. Jgroom (talk) 00:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, and you also are encouraged to annotate your edits! --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Project
If this is part of a student project, please declare that fact here and at School and university projects. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 01:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This project is a student project, and has also been declared at the School and university projects. Jgroom (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Current changes about format and such
I've started to reformat the Concerns and controversies section, prose-ifying it and putting in citations. Juliamarieowens 013:49, 7 April 2008

Cool
I take it this is another class that is collaborating on a Wikipedia article! This is good. One note...you seriously need to WP:Cite everything. Take a look and copy the citation formatting of the articles linked at Murder, Mayhem, and Madness. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 01:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've created a template for you.
 * Long poem project
 * Please modify it to suit you. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've moved the Long Poem Project template to the talk page where it is more appropriate. Good luck with your project! Zvika (talk) 09:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Poetry
I encourage all the contributing editors at this page to become members / participants of WikiProject Poetry so that you can harness the power / synergy of like-minded Wikipedians. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Worth examining
As you work on 'Long Poem', it is worth examining similar articles that have made it to Featured article status. Examine in the sense of gleaning the stylistic conventions of Wikipedia. For example, Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Alliterative verse
 * Modernist poetry in English
 * Poetry

Suggestions
Hi, I'm a member of the FA-Team; although I don't think we'll be able to make this an official mission, a few of us will watchlist this page and try to answer any questions you might have. I've skimmed the article and have some initial comments for you to consider if you want the article to eventually reach Good or Featured article status. Have fun playing with the article and making changes. When you are ready for more feedback, leave a note here and I or someone else watching the page will try to respond with a more thorough review and suggestions. Karanacs (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Generally, an article contains appropriate wikilinks. The lead looks pretty good wikilink-wise, but the body of the article is awfully sparse.  Generally, if the same term is used more than once in the article, wikilink once in the lead, and the first time it appears in the article. Suggestions for what should be wikilinked:
 * Full dates or month-day combinations (e.g. January 1, 2008 or April 2 NOT April or 2007).
 * Names of people who have WP articles
 * Places
 * Terms that are specific to the article, or other things that would help provide context (like poem names if the poem has an article)
 * Citations are really important! There appear to be two citation types right now, Harvard style and footnotes.  Although either is acceptable, most people use footnotes.  For an example of how to do citations well, see Ima Hogg.  Please remember to include page numbers for any book references.
 * Please make sure that all information is verifiable. This generally means citing it.  Basically, we need to satisfy the readers that this is not original research, but that the article is discussing what others have already said about the topic. ALL quotations need a citation.
 * The concerns and controversies section is basically a list. This should probably be converted into prose, with more discussion of each of the concerns and how they are addressed or how they affect the genre.
 * The history section is very short. I think it could probably be combined with Genealogy and possibly with Concerns and controversies if that fits into any specific time, or if the concerns can be used to show a growth or changes in the genre or people's perceptions of it over time.
 * The section Examples of modern and contemporary English long poems might need to be removed. Some will complain that by only including English long poems, the article is then showing a geographic point of view (the article should be global in scope).  You could either shorten the list of English examples and add examples in other languages, OR you could take what is in this embedded list and create a new article that is a stand-alone list called something like List of long poems in English.  If you make the stand-alone list article, you would then have a See Also section in this article which refers to that new article.  (and if this is confusing, please ask questions!)
 * I think the section Subgenres needs to be moved up towards the front of the article.
 * I think the section Advantages should probably be combined with the first section that is a definition of the genre.

Wrong
The poem that is supposedly ten times longer than the Odyssey and Iliad put together cannot also be only five times longer than the Divine Comedy, since the latter is about the length of one of the others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 (talk) 19:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources needed for dubious claims
This article seriously needs sources: at the moment it makes a great deal of claims which are entirely unreferenced, amounting to original research. Some of these claims are pretty dubious; for example, I have to object to the line: 'The epic is a historically masculine genre and has not welcomed female writers or other authors who are not male and white.' Male, yes, but 'white'? Were the Ramayana or the Epic of Gilgamesh written by 'white people'? Robofish (talk) 22:57, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Long poem as a genre?
Does calling it a "multi-genre" work? There's a lot of writing about the long poem not being a genre in itself. Or, "multi-genre category" of poetry? I'd like to add text showing these different points of views. The long poem as a genre is a modern concept, but tends to be generalized to include epics, dramatic monologues, etc. KAH 06:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC) KAH 06:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfounded claims
I want to mention some of my thoughts about where the article could be revised before I attempt anything so the author and/or others will have a chance to disagree with me.

I think the final sentence in the introduction should be deleted because it is unfounded: "In contemporary poetry, the long poem has become a space for the emergent voices of historically under-represented writers including women, post-colonial subjects, the gay and lesbian community, and racially/ethnically oppressed persons, who seek the definitive communal voice connoted by early long poems." KAH 04:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I also don't think "Fears of the Writer" and "Generic Conundrums" has a valid reason for being here, unless there are scholars actually writing about this, and there are some, but not enough to make these sections. It diminishes the value of the "long poem" as a real concept. KAH (talk) 07:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Further, "Advantages of the long poem genre" suggests that there is a negative view of this "genre," when that's not the case at all. The long poem doesn't need to be defended. KAH (talk) 07:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I think calling the epic a "parent genre" is questionable. The subject is a lot more complex than that. I also question the use of the word "subgenres" to describe kinds of poems that are long because many long poems have their own genre, and the long poem wasn't considered a genre until the 20th century.

T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" as a collage needs to be sourced and explained, since the word has a different meaning in French, when it was coined for use in this context. KAH (talk) 06:04, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Under "Length and meaning," the text is focused on cultural implications and has several sentences that are unsourced and seem to be opinions instead of unbiased statements. KAH (talk) 06:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Some self-published poem 'Mazz'zaroth' claimed to be the longest in English
I changed to 'one of the longest' because arguably there others of ~the same or higher length. 'Orlando Furioso' in English translation has ~43+k lines (a wiki article claims that its original in old Italian has ~38+k lines) and is therefore longer than 'Mazz'zaroth' (and infinitely more important than some self-published thing which has almost 0 serious discussion about too) but since nobody promotes it nowadays and claims in some Internet article it to be the longest English poem, and counting lines with Notepad++ is 'original research' I didn't add it, wiki may stay shit for what I care. You can find 'Orlando..' in English on Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/615 and count the lines themselves omitting the Gutenberg notations if you want.217.118.64.56 (talk) 06:38, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Manas - Epic Poem
Manas'epic poem isn't mentioned anyhere in the main article nor in the talk page. It is a Kyrgyz traditional poem composed throughout the centuries, counting a total of around 500000 (half a million) verses, aroud two and a half those of Mahabharata. Multiple versions exist of it, is it why it's not mentioned? I didn't edit anything in the main page because it would be quite a substantial addition. TheMaGioCo (talk) 09:02, 15 May 2016 (UTC)TheMaGioCo