Talk:Lookout Mountain Air Force Station/Archive 1

Discussion
Any idea what the two sections in the original references are? Several items appear to be duplicates, but not 14, 15, 16, 17. I'm wondering about "IBID" in the second section. I guess refs 8–13 refer to 7, while ref 18 refers to 17, etc. But then why are there two sections of references? Johnuniq (talk) 11:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It hurt my brain! I thought I was doing so good, then .. it started at 1 again! Need clarification, and feel free to undue my edits if needed. Sportfan5000 (talk) 12:17, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The two sections of original references appear to be reference lists for different versions of the article. The section which is now first (was second) appears to correspond to the numbering in the 2014-03-03 original version (the version we started with).  The section which is now second (was first) appears to be an older subset of the other one.  The newer one has references which appear to just be inserted (i.e. not deletions) into the list (with the numbering redone). IBID in references means duplicate of the previous one.  Wikipedia doesn't use it, but it is common for references.


 * Unless someone else has a desire to keep it, I would definitely delete the second version. I have completed the copying which you started of all the references to being inline.  For all those which had URLs, I have found the correct URL (none were valid) and flushed out the full citation.  For all of those, I have verified the contents of the article against the reference.  In multiple cases this resulted in changes to the article, or reducing the material that the reference covered.  I have done no verification on anything that does not have a URL.  I have left notes in the old references sections and in edit the summaries.


 * I don't believe there is any information, other than my notes (which are only intended to provide information about what I did to other editors, i.e. you), remaining in the old references sections which is not now inline within the article. In other words, I would not have a problem if they are deleted.  To make things less confusing we should probably delete at least the second set.


 * Please double check what I have done. I am quite tired at the moment and could have easily made mistakes.  I'm done for at least a few hours. &mdash; Makyen (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

New list, probably match numbers in 2014-03-03 original
1    The Center For Land Use Interpretation. Map coordinates of Lookout Mountain. (http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/CA6081) ✅ In infobox

2    U.S. Department of Energy, Nevada Office. The Nevada Test Site's Secret Film Studio: Lookout Mountain (July, 2006). (http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/factsheets/DOENV_1142.pdf) URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

3   Connie Tran; Gordon Tokumatsu (1 September 2011) "Mysterious Building in Laurel   Canyon Unveiled" (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Mysterious-building-in-Laurel-Canyon- Unvieled-128852083.html). KNBC URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

4    Lauren Beale (28 August 2011) "http://www.latimes.com/business/realestate/la-fi-home- 20110828,0,1523444.story)  Los Angeles Times URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

5    "Secret Film Studio: Lookout Mountain" Nevada National Security Site History (http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/factsheetDOENV_1142.pdf) dup of #2. ref tag copied, facts in article corrected to ref ✅

6    Guide To Lookout Mt. Air Force Station, Los Angeles, CA - 28 November 1966 - Author's copy.

7     Outline of History of Lookout Mountain Laboratory - USAF -1952 - Author's copy.

8     IBID

9     IBID

10    IBID

11    IBID

12    IBID

13    IBID

14    Air Force History Index -  (http//airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/426/492.xml)-This reference did not cover any of the paragraph for which it was indicated. It did cover the second half of the next paragraph, as indicated in #16

15    Guide To Air Force Historical Literature 1943-1983 - August 29, 1983

16    Air Force History Index -  http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/426/492.xml ✅ Material and quote verified.

17  Guide To Lookout Mt. Air Force Station, Los Angeles, CA - 28 November 1966 - Author's copy.

18    IBID

19  Military Airlift Command-  Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Military_Airlift_Command) ---This reference does not support the majority of the paragraph to which it was assigned. The portion which is mentioned in that article is not referenced.

20  Guide To Lookout Mt. Air Force Station, Los Angeles, CA - 28 November 1966 - Author's copy.

21     IBID Reference does not exist in original, we can guess reasonably well where it should be, but we don't have the ref doc. I hesitate to place anything based solely on a guess.

22     IBID

23   "THE LOOKOUT MT. STORY" (1965) - USAF Film

24     Recollections of 2nd LT. Dennis S. Johnson, 1352nd Photographic Group, LMAFS, December, 1966-March, 1968

25     IBID

26     IBID

27   "HOLLYWOOD'S TOP SECRET MOVIE STUDIO - ATOMIC FILMMAKERS" (1999) - Directed by Peter Kuran

28     Recollections of 2nd Lt. Dennis S. Johnson, 1352nd Photographic Group, LMAFS, December, 1966 - March, 1968.

29    Internet Movie Data Base - IMDb

30    Unit History, 600th Photo Squadron - January - June, 1966 - 600th PhotoSquadron.org website.

31     IBID

32    "USAF COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA" (1968) - USAF Film

33     IBID

34     IBID

35     600th PhotoSquadron.org - website

36     LENSMAN - October, 1969 - Official newspaper of the Aerospace Audio Visual Service.

37   Military's Secret Nuclear Bomb Film Studio Compound in Laurel Canyon is Now A Rehab Center - Adrian Glick Kudler - "Curbbed Los Angeles" - November 7, 2012 (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/11/militarys_secret_nuclear_bomb_film_studio_ compound_in_laurel_canyon_is_now_a_rehab_center) URL corrected, citation made, facts and quote in article corrected to ref ✅

Old, outdated, additional refs inserted in original after this list was made (assumed)
1.        The Center For Land Use Interpretation. Map coordinates of Lookout Mountain. (http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/CA6081) ✅ In infobox

2    U.S. Department of Energy, Nevada Office. The Nevada Test Site's Secret Film Studio: Lookout Mountain (July, 2006). (http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/factsheets/DOENV_1142.pdf) URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

3.        Connie Tran; Gordon Tokumatsu (1 September 2011) "Mysterious Building in Laurel Canyon Unveiled" (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Mysterious-building-in- Laurel-Canyon-Unvieled-128852083.html). KNBC URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

4.        Lauren Beale (28 August 2011) "http://www.latimes.com/business/realestate/la-fi-home- 20110828,0,1523444.story)  Los Angeles Times URL corrected, citation made, facts in article verified against ref ✅

5.        "Secret Film Studio: Lookout Mountain" Nevada National Security Site History (http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/factsheetDOENV_1142.pdf) dup of #2. ref tag copied, facts in article corrected to ref ✅

6.        Guide To Lookout Mt. Air Force Station, Los Angeles, CA - 28 November 1966 - Author's copy.

7.        Outline of History of Lookout Mountain Laboratory - USAF -1952 - Author's copy.

8.        Air Force History Index -  http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/426/492.xml --Did not support text at ref location 8. The other #8 was probably supposed to go in that location...

9.        Guide To Air Force Historical Literature 1943-1983 - August 29, 1983 10.      Military Airlift Command -  Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Airlift_Command)

11.      "THE LOOKOUT MT. STORY" (1965) - USAF film

12.      Recollections of 2nd Lt. Dennis S. Johnson, 1352d Photographic Group, LMAFS, December, 1967 to March, 1968.

13.      "HOLLYWOOD'S TOP SECRET MOVIE STUDIO - ATOMIC FILMMAKERS" (1999) Directed by Peter Kuran, DVD

14.      IMDb. Biographies for W. Donn Hayes, William "Bill" Holmes, and Barry Shipman

15.      Unit History 600th Photo Squadron, Tan Son Nhut AB, Saigin, RVN - January - June, 1966. 600th Photo Squadron.org website.

16.      "USAF COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHY IN SOUTHEAST ASIA" (1968) USAF Film

17.      Lensman - October, 1969 - The official newspaper of Aerospace Audio Visual Service (AAVS).

18.      Military's Secret Nuclear Bomb Film Studio Compound in Laurel Canyon is Now A Rehab Center - Adrian Glick Kudler -  "Curbbed Los Angeles" - November 7, 2012 (http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/11/militarys_secret_nuclear_bomb_film_studio_ compound_in_laurel_canyon_is_now_a_rehab_center) ✅ See newer list for comment.

Potential resources

 * U.S. DOE/NNSA - Nevada Field Office
 * Library
 * Nuclear Testing Archive
 * Films on YouTube
 * YouTube, sorted oldest (by upload date) first. The ones of nuclear testing are most likely the work of LMAFS.


 * Energy.gov
 * Weapons test series on flickr, again older ones are probably their work.


 * Film made by Lookout Mountain about Lookout Mountain:

Air Photographic and Charting Service c.1962

Getting the original author involved
Is there a way to get the original author involved? Their participation would be helpful.

At a minimum, there is a quote that requires a reference: "'HQ USAF has approved the organization of a photo squadron with nine detachments and one OL in SEA (Southeast Asia). To provide lineage, AF advises that the squadron will be an AFCON unit. The 13th Combat Camera Squadron will be re-designated the 600th Photo Squadron activated, assigned to MAC for further assignment to the 1352 Photographic Group effective o/s 8 Feb 1966.'" I expect the original author has the source available for this quote. Unfortunately, the source that was listed in the original references appears to be wrong, the document I found not the correct one, or correct version, or I missed the quote when looking through the reference. The reference which was provided was the History of the 600th Photo Sq. January 1967 - June 1967. I found a copy, but not on the original source site. However, the file itself does reference the original source site. Thus, it is likely the document which was referenced.

I believe the document I found is the one specified in the original #30 reference. There is another, unreferenced, document History of the 600th Photo Squadron 1 July 1967 - 31 December 1967, but the quote is not in that document either (or at least a text search does not find it).

Basically, to use the quote there needs to be a reference that actually says it. Is it possible for the original author to take a look?

If the original author is willing to take at a look the article, there are some other areas where additional citations would be helpful. In addition, it would be nice to have complete references to the items that are listed as "Author's copy". It is, of course, fine for a reference not to be online. However, it would be helpful to have more detailed identification of those documents, and perhaps how to obtain them, so future editors have an easier time finding the document which is being referenced (and being able to be 100% certain they have found the correct document).

&mdash; Makyen (talk) 00:37, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I can ask, anyway. Guy (Help!) 16:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

From our helpful correspondent:

I can see why there is some confusion here about my references and my referencing facts and quotes. First, it should be noted that the first 16 references at the end of my text, under the heading "References," are the titles and sources of the various facts and quotes in the article. This is what one would normally call a "bibliography." It is just a list of all the sources I used listed in the order in which they are first referenced in the text. Obviously some of these sources are referenced several times in the text, so I created a set of "footnotes." The second set of references, 1 through 33, are "footnotes," only here they are "endnotes." Each of the numbered reference supports what I considered a fact or detail or a quote in the text that needed reference. I knew no other way to do this since there were way more "footnotes" (33) than the original 16 sources listed under "References." Third, some of my facts, details and quotes are from documents that I saved from the 14 months that I served at Lookout Mt. AFS in 1966-1968. They included a copy of an unofficial "History of Lookout Mt. Laboratory" which became Lookout, Mt. AFS. A Lookout Mt. AFS telephone directory, and a copy of program for an "Open House" at Lookout, Mt. AFS, held in October, 1967. None of these items can be found in any official USAF depository that I know of, which is why I listed them as "Author's Collection." Facts are facts no matter where they come from. For the record, I did not actually reference the telephone directory of the Open House Program as the same information was in other sources that I did reference. Fourth, as to the quote about the formation of the "600th Photo Squadron" and it being under the direction of the 1352nd Photographic Group at Lookout, Mt. I'm pretty sure that is from the official USAF history of the 600th PS and is on the 600th PS website. In fact, I just went and looked it up again. Oops! I made a mistake in the date of the document. I wrote that it was from 1967, but it is actually from 1966. Here is the link to the correct history: http://www.600thphotosq.org/dets/600_hq/files/pdf/history600thps_jan66.pdf The title of the document is: "History of the 600th Photo Squadron - January, 1966 - 30 June 1966; Prepared by 1/LT Richard Ruddy, Chief of Documentation, 600th Photo Squadron.  Approved by James Warndorf, Colonel, USAF, Commander,  17 September 1966." The quote about the formation of the squadron appears in the "Forward" of this document on page "eye". For those who are unfamiliar with USAF Unit Histories, they were written every 6 months to document the activities of the unit for the past 6 months. January to 30 June 1966 was the first 6 months of the 600th Photo Squadrons activities which included its formation.

I have asked if I can pass his email address on, as you probably have more time than I do. He really is a most charming gentleman. Guy (Help!) 21:39, 5 March 2014 (UTC)