Talk:Loom

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"Looms can range from very small hand-held frames, to large free-standing hand looms, to huge automatic mechanical devices. "

Most of the examples given in the article refer to the last catregory, "huge automatic mechanical devices". What about floor looms, table looms, inkle looms, backstrap looms, things used by handweavers? I've never seen a vertical loom&mdash;are they really more common than the horizontal variety?

I appreciate the haute lisse pictures as I have never actually seen one, but probably one is enough. I'll probably replace one of them with a photo of my table loom once I get it photographed.

Other goals: The parts of a loom, how it works, what is is supposed to do (i.e. basically the whole point is to somehow get your warp under tension).

[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:05, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed that the current article is poor in form. I would greatly appreciate, if you can rewrite, add relevant pictures etc. -- Sundar 03:42, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * I gave it a start. (Obviously an incomplete one, but a start.) I'm not sure how to organize, really. I have a friend who has a frame loom&mdash;I'll see if I can get her to take a picture. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 20:02, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks Sarah and others. Now the article is in a far better shape. I've a few pictures of Jacquard looms and power looms in India. I've uploaded one of them and used it at Ettayapuram. I'll try to upload more after some pruning. -- Sundar 06:15, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

I've repositioned the images. They look OK on the resolution that I'm running at, but may look worse on a smaller monitor. Does anyone have a problem?

I've also put power loom before Jacquard loom, to put them in chronological order. There's also an article on dobby looms on Wikipedia, but I didn't know where to fit that in. Can anyone suggest a placing?
 * Jacquard and Dobby and Cam are all different types of patterning systems, mostly for industrial looms and have different design capabilities. The actual loom attached to the patterning system could be the same in each instance. I suggest you set up a patterning systems heading.   The fourth patterning type is manual, and this is the type used in most looms that aren't in factories: floor looms, tapestry looms, table looms, etc.Pschemp 22:24, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Terminology Section
There may also be a need for a separate section on terminology: Loom has some of the terms, but others are scattered. [[User:Noisy|Noisy | Talk]] 10:31, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The terminology section is duplicating descriptions that sit pretty well where they are already. I'm tempted to move it to a separate article for reference from the weaving section.  It could also be used for spinning terminology as well.  Some of the terms that I've found in my research aren't clear yet, such as sleying and sett, so if anyone can expand ...  [[User:Noisy|Noisy | Talk]] 00:51, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Sleying is the process of threading the warp yarn through the reed (you can just barely see the little spaces it has to go through here&mdash;it's the front part there that it goes through when you are sleying). Usually one speaks of "sleying the reed". You set (verb) the warp at X ends per inch and then you can say that its sett (noun) is X ends per inch. These are both terms that relate more to the process of warping the loom than to the structure of the loom itself. Do we want to get into that here?
 * We can take this in one of two ways. As it stands, it seems reasonable to discuss the parts of a loom in the article on looms (which is not too close to being "too long" at the moment). However, I can see the value in a weaving terminology article. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:59, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, and hey, I just cut my latest project off my little table loom, so if there are any parts you would like to see photographed without the warp in the way, let me know. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:01, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Weaving needs attention
There's been a couple of edits to Weaving by Special:Contributions/User:194.222.59.249. The edits seem to be made in good faith but appear somewhat unencyclopedic, needing a major rewrite. Can some one watching this page look into that. -- Sundar 10:13, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

weaving
i thought that you could just weave, when using a loom, with your hands. Threading the yarn/fabric with your hands...do you have to use a shuttle????--139.168.95.178 01:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's certainly possible, but has serious disadvantages. A shuttle provides you with a place to compactly keep plenty of yarn so that the weaving can continue unbroken. Trying to do this by hand requires either holding a relatively unwieldy chunk of yarn in hand, or creating unfortunate breaks in the pattern of the weaving. --Eyrian 09:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The subsection "Battening" contains a serious error.

''Battening. As the shuttle moves across the loom laying down the fill yarn, it also passes through openings in another frame called a reed (which resembles a comb).''

"it" in this sentence, following standard (American) English usage, would refer to the shuttle. The shuttle never passes through ... (the) reed. The fill yarn (also called the weft thread) contained in the shuttle never passes through the reed. The warp threads pass through the reed. The weaver uses the reed to batten the just thrown weft into the fell.

Another less serious error occurs in the following sentence:

''With each picking operation, the reed presses or battens each filling yarn against the portion of the fabric that has already been formed. ''

Battening actually comes after each pick. I suggest replacing "with" with "after".

Re-write this how you will. I suggest:

Battening. Between the heddles and the takeup roll, the warp threads pass through another frame called the reed (which resembles a comb). The portion of the fabric that has already been formed but not yet rolled up on the takeup roll is called the fell. After the shuttle moves across the loom laying down the fill yarn, the weaver uses the reed to press (or batten) each filling yarn against the fell.

Jeff.Hull (talk) 23:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Floor looms
The floor loom section focuses on contemporary weaving; it needs to be expanded to include the invention of heddles, then treadles, and then the draw loom and how it works to create figured fabrics. I'm not an expert and I'm having trouble finding a quality source that puts times and places on these inventions. - PKM (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Reassessment
I've reassessed this article to the new C-class, as I don't believe it meets the updated criteria for B-class.

In particular, the section on shuttle looms toward the end of the article and the section on floor looms near the top have redundant information which leads to confusion.

To-do:


 * Restructure into an organization based on historical development or complexity.
 * Balance historical handweaving, mechanized weaving, and modern craft handweaving
 * Standardize the depth of coverage here with "main" articles connecting to various kinds of looms

- PKM (talk) 18:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Simplification
The text I have commented out below, has no place in this article- no references etc, and it is hindering the development of the main article. I looked at creating two stub articles from it but there really is not enough there, so I have left it here until someone can use it. I have been concentrating on Power loom (where you will find some useful references). but now was the time to check that thew the two articles were consistent. --ClemRutter (talk) 10:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if I ruffle any feathers

Merge
Shuttle loom is a one-sentence article. I suggest we merge and redirect it here. - PKM (talk) 02:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅:--ClemRutter (talk) 08:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Location (talk) 01:58, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Making it so. - PKM (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed section
I have removed the section "Tapestry Frame Loom" as it is commercial spam including manufacturer's links. - PKM (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Punched Cards
In Computer Science contexts, it's often noted that looms provided the key innovation of punched cards, which later became a general purpose information storage medium.

I came to this page to figure out just how precisely a punched piece of paper controlled a heavy weaving machine. To my dismay, the article doesn't mention punched cards at all.

If anyone has specialized knowledge of looms and punched cards, please consider adding it to the article. --Thomas B&#9816; talk 08:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Diagram
There are some good pix on this page, along with a diagram and a film. However, a simplified diagram of the key parts of any loom, showing where the shuttle goes and the key terms closer up, would be good. Thanks.

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll second that. Ten years later and we still could use a good simple diagram. GA-RT-22 (talk) 00:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Automated looms / luddites
This article doesn’t mention the luddites, which I would think were an important factor in the history of looms. I was actually looking for information about the first automated looms, how they worked, what kinds of things they could automate etc. Nothing about that in this article... — Timwi (talk) 11:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback
 * You say automated loom- I say power loom, there is a whole section and link Loom which will lead you to the detailed descriptions.
 * Historical consequences of the introductions of the power loom is missing- but we have to be global here and it is debated whether the events of 1811, 1812 and 1813 were just against looms (spinning and stocking knitting frames too) or whether a East Midlands event has global relevance. Yes it must be investigated- it could be reported here but I suspect it is too detailed and off focus for here. Please give more input.--ClemRutter (talk) 13:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Where is the Knifty Knitter?
I have been having fun with something called a Knifty Knitter. To my surprise it is not mentioned in Wikipedia. It is a plastic circle with pegs to wrap yarn around. -- Michael Flower (talk) 23:46, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * It is a circle loom, a new example of French Knitting. As it is a commercial product, I suspect that it will never be seen as product placement and zapped. I think you should research Knitting Nancy and see if you could add to that article.  The only way to get material on Wikipedia is to try..... See you around.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClemRutter (talk • contribs) 14:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Guess: technological convergence of knitting and looming... lub the outer circular shape of the knitter. luk the bow. knots suggests miniaturization of fish nets, note for musical instruments both wire and later alphabet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.99.163.104 (talk) 10:47, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

guesswork: most likely predates language
Most likely predates language as the sound. Below the letter in between [l] is not English phonetics. English phonetics is newer like the kanji point of trajectory mentioned below.

[l] sound of snapping branch or log prior L.ANd.ing that predates L.ANc.ing

[oo] sound of branch attached leaves noise long and strong like roar without the power

[m] sound of pair-bonding attraction of hum with a shut mouth or moan with open or masculine [k][uu][m] = change moan humm. or night time damp or other rhythmic murmuring admiration of cumnt.

[s] attribution of pain (ash in) of bone tools sound of self distress or sorrow or loss regeret such as expectation of sore snap through exclamation of power roar enforcing replication or negotiating reply or compliance. unlike searing osteo-ash from the lamb bone.

Ancient technological relations that might include: Most likely origin of sights and sounds mimicking meaning. Signaling sorrow lessening dance avoiding wast void howl.

Possible close cluster of technologies, biased phonetics trajectory like hiragana, katakana, kanji but prior to structured writing and alphabet.

[f/ks/x] [l] = floating/barkpain/willforcing woodsnap: Gathering storage and transportation pre-basket wood logs, gathered lumps insertion and wood woven. Fishing sticks and weapons in general. Nestful floor, wall and ceiling.

[e] [l] = SwearResistingReplyOwnWillActing woodsnap: pre-measurement fitting ell. Non-consent.

[f] [e] [ll] = PerfectFertility OwnWill woodsnapLonger: Fire management.

[v/f/b] [rr] Divorce ending in power purr. That predates [b] [o] [r] Could be the key population copulation technology earlier then gathering and mating gifting. Both expelling into less fertile tundra that's gonna become habitable soon after thanks to long climate cycles and frequent periodic extinction due to short sun spot cycle. And voluntary abandonment in search for fertile warmer climate. But do not ask me how it evolved into old and cold.

Besides fair diva purr management there is probably going to be traveling tribe merger of dominance structures and domesticated animals tracking untill departure and pair-bonding tribe reassignment on departure. Logging belongings earlier alike the knot indexing of quipu by number of spins around the trunk thread till the knot of the spun thread to count the furs and herds. And the logging is late form of the mistress manage ate called ma mama earlier then female gods theocracies. Fishing or weapon stick and foreign fruit sheets predating baskets providing young fresh ferocious fertility a knotted net fishermen Phoenicans. Fruit gathering (ha he rr in = gaze thy power youth). Pay(gaze) in good looking cloth. Medical pre-roman herb collection. Sling (s l in g = pain snap youth go). Wall and roof knitting and logging and walking administering hereditary ownership stick, sling and building lock angling.

As I said it's just guesswork and obviously the concept of phoneme become gradually irrelevant with the feedback loops substitutions and structured language.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.99.163.104 (talk) 19:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Can I make a appeal to the informed ip-editor above to register for an account with Wikipedia- so you gain a talk page and a history, and you can keep a watchlist. There are other areas where your knowledge would be valuable but we have no way of getting in touch at the moment.ClemRutter (talk) 08:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Missing loom type
You need a sortout of the weaving types. Firstly, incle weaving techniques should be inserted before the drawloom as they are it's technological precursor - indeed, it might be argued they are the same. Secondly, you're missing the tablet loom, which replaces the draw threads (which will eventually become heddles) with tablets rotated by hand, usually carrying a number of warp threads, which allows double-weaving, although this only really appears once multiple-heddled looms came on the scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.250.135.238 (talk) 22:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Lamm
The lamm is a (simple) mechanism that (somewhat) controls (or steers) the movement of the wire between the treadle and the shaft. It is a slender beam that goes from the side of the loom perpendicularly to the treadle to the point where the wire is to be. One end of the lamm is fixed to the wire, the other to the side of the loom, with a kind of hinge, so that the other end can move up and down with the wire. The lamm and the treadle, together, make the wire go relatively straightly up and down. If there is no lamm, there may be a tendency to pull the shafts somewhat sideways, which may have negtive effects on the weaving. I have this problem on my 200 years old loom that lacks lamms. Wikipedia is miraculously full of valuable information. But information about lamms seems to be lacking. --Ettrig (talk) 07:30, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Where is handloom stupid guys
Please give more information about handloom If you Say no You r stupid 2401:4900:33AB:E28:1EB3:3330:6D8E:1CA9 (talk) 03:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

History
Not a word about the history of the loom? Was hoping to get info on early looms and their development in the ancient world. 2600:2B00:9205:9D00:C066:ECEE:B58:551 (talk) 20:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)