Talk:Lorcán Ua Tuathail

Untitled
Family tree for Lorcan will be forthcoming Fergananim

Images of Saint Lawrence O'Toole
A good source is with Diocese of Dublin but I have been unable to check the copyright status --Henri 07:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Language - shouldn't Lorcán Ua Tuathail be in English?
As a point of discussion - we know that St Laurence O'Toole is the English version of the name and Lorcán Ua Tuathail is the Irish version - one could say, the true version. However, this is the English version of Wikipedia. So, shouldn't we see the English name here? To allow readability for English speakers across the world, doesn't the inclusion of so many Irish words detract from the the meaning of the article as a whole? Throughout the world people know him as St Laurence O'Toole In reality, most people have never heard of him - but they're not likely to either if his name is only written in Irish (Goidelic). Perhaps there are some Wiki-policies on the subject. I know that common names are encouraged and perhaps that's an argument for using the English version. But before you get on your high horse and demand the recognition of the Irish language from before those English colonialists got their hands on ... etc. etc. - this is just a point of discussion for the clarity of this article. If only those people in Ireland who can understand Gaelic can find and read this article, its not doing its job as an encyclodedic article. Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 09:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not think that there is much point in giving him a name in a language he most likely never understood during his lifetime. Actual scholarly literature like the work by Pádraig Ó Riain, A Dictionary of Irish Saints, Four Courts Press, Dublin 2011, lists him under Lorcán. --AFBorchert (talk) 11:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your brief contribution. Given that the majority of readers are American, then put that together with the populations of other English speaking countries - you can probably include India and the Philipines in there, do you think many people will equate Lorcán with Laurence? The book you are quoting was written by an Irishman for an Irish audience. The people of England din't even speak English (as we know it) at the time of Lorcán's canonisation. This is about access to the article by the greatest number of people. But thank you for being the first - and your views are very welcome. Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 14:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The usage of the name Lorcán Ua Tuathail is not restricted to Irish people for Irish audiences. Next example: Richard Sharpe: Medieval Irish Saint's Lives: An Introduction to Vitae Sanctorum Hiberniae, Clarendon Press, Oxford 1991, p. 395. As far as I can see, the entire recent scholarly literature about Ireland refers to the Irish names and refers additionally to Anglicized names only where they have been extraordinarily common. This is the same practice which we find applied in this article where St Laurence O'Toole is given as an alternate name in the leading paragraph and where a corresponding redirect exists. --AFBorchert (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact, the article uses his Irish name only in the title - the rest of the article says "Lawrence" (even though it should be Laurence). RTE calls him Laurence - and they are an official organ of the Irish government. Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 15:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * RTE is a state-sponsored body, this does not make it an official organ of the Irish government. I just looked for the saint in the 1929 monumental work of James F. Kenney, The Sources for the Early History of Ireland: Ecclesiastical, where in the register O'Toole, Laurence refers to Lorcan Úa Tuathail much like the redirection here. And Kenney was a Canadian historian and this book was published by Columbia University Press, New York. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, AFBorchert. You have made a good point. Now, if we wait a little, we will be able to see, a) if anyone else supports either opinion, and b) if more people than just the two of us can actually find St Laurence O'Toole on Wikipedia. Best wishes ~ Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 21:24, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Nobody reads this page because it's not in English
I'd like to raise the issue of language again. Nobody is visting this page because they are looking for the English language name Saint Lawrence O'Toole and not Lorcán Ua Tuathail. English language Wikipedia needs to be in English. Francis Hannaway (talk) 12:19, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, he should be in English in the English wikipedia. We don't have an article named Pyotr Velikiy, we have Peter the Great that also mentions Pyotr Velikiy as his name in Russian.78.19.219.90 (talk) 10:29, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

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