Talk:Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine

Untitled
I'm changing the category from "Arizona landmarks." It can't be a landmark because no one knows where it is or was. There is some dispute as to whether it ever existed. Maurreen 03:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Untitled
I corrected the Dutchman's name, which he signed "Waltz" on all verifiable documents. Also corrected the name of the mine from Lost Dutchman's to Lost Dutchman. C. Lowe —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.176.90.241 (talk • contribs) 09:45, December 30, 2005 (UTC)

Stolen gold theory
My recollection is, Waltz was most likely fencing gold "high-graded" (stolen by miners) from Henry Wickenburg's Vulture mine, which was notorious for being poorly-managed. If memory serves, a fellow-geologist saw a specimen of the Dutchman's gold many years later, and positively identified it as Vulture gold.

Sometime when time and energy permit, I'll research this and post references. But the story has the ring of truth: Waltz needed a convincing story to account for the stolen gold, and variants of this story were used in other districts (eg Goldfield, Nevada) where "high-grading" was common.

18:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Peter D. Tillman Mining Geologist, Arizona and New Mexico (USA)

Wikipetia entry: on Vulture mine
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_Mine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.54 (talk) 22:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Link to Arizona Gold Mining scams at http://mines.az.gov/Publications/ofr02-20.pdf {30 pages)
 * Although Waltz never worked at the Vulture Mine https://westernmininghistory.com/3747/vulture-mine-history-fact-and-fiction/ he could indeed have been a "fence" for those who did 'Italic text'work at the Vulture...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.186.88 (talk) 16:25, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Alternative explanation of holes in Ruth Skull?

 * Was Ruth's skull tested for any bullet lead in the holes? The holes could have been caused by animal Predators.

Waltz's "descendants"
The last paragraph of the Historical Jacob Waltz section claims that Waltz's descendents are searching for their "rightful inheiritance." First, I am not aware that Waltz had any children. Second, because Waltz never patented his mine, any mining claim he might have had would be automatically forfeited more than a hundred years ago, after the first year of not being worked. So there is no "rightful inheiritance". The Waltz mine - if there is one - is up for grabs. Plazak 00:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No one came up with a citation for this statement, so I removed it.Plazak 04:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If Jacob Waltz' mine is in the Superstitions, it isn't "up for grabs", since the entire area has been designated a wilderness area. &mdash;QuicksilverT @ 22:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Phantom Dance
I have played an orchestra song called Phantom Dance, which was made because of this mine. Sources here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rct2guy (talk • contribs) 03:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Much is missing from the article
There are many article about the Lost Dutchman mine on the Internet and this article seems to ignore them. Many people have done considerable research into the mine. This research includes finding, tracking and translating Spanish Land Grants to the Peralta family. There are gold assay reports on the ore that several people brought in for exchange. These sources are not mentioned pro or con in this article. I have explored the area both on foot and on horseback. My goal was geological familiarization of the general Southwest region of the U.S. I have, like all tourists, read many of the popular books about the mine. I also know people who have done the research into the land grants, earthquakes and legends concerning the mine. Most if not all of these are ommitted from the article. I would like to see someone with a real interest in factually describing the mine and its legend try to organize the data available and present it in a more complete form. Of course that research might discount many of the standard theories and stories about the mine but I believe that these theories and stories bear consideration in any article about something so interesting. There is an old saying "gold is where you find it."Paladin123 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC).
 * If you can cite published sources, put the information in. However, that you "know people who have done the research" is not sufficient documentation.  Wikipedia is not the place for original research.  Plazak (talk) 13:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Barry Storms book
I have twice added a reference to "Thunder Gods' Gold" by Barry Storms, the book about the mine on which the movie "Lust for Gold" was based. This reference has now been twice deleted, first because unsourced and then because sourced to a web-based bibliography (this last time because the web site apparently also offered the book for sale and the bibliographic listing was therefore an ad). Under these standards, I suppose a reference to a copy for sale on Amazon is not sufficient proof of the book's existence either? http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Gods-Gold-Mountains-Enlarged/dp/B0007FA4WM/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290967827&sr=1-3 Honestly not a topic I care about very much, but it seems that a  relevant source on the mine's legends is not mentioned on the page. I am not going to try to fix this again but hope someone else will. Jonathanwallace (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No one is questioning the existence of the book; your statement
 * * Thunder Gods Gold is a 1945 book by Barry Storm about Lost Dutchman and other mines, and was the basis for the movie Lust for Gold.
 * was reverted here with edit summary "cited source is a site promoting and selling the book - you need to cite a reliable source that makes this statement". It's not sufficient to prove the book exists, you need to find a reliable source such as a review in an independent third-party publication like Variety or a large daily newspaper, that supports the claim that the book was the basis for Lust for Gold.  Sorry for any confusion.  --CliffC (talk) 20:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that Barry Storms' "Thunder Gods' Gold" was the source for "Lust for Gold" is stated in the credits of the movie itself, in the Wikipedia article Lust for Gold and on IMDB, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041610/fullcredits#writers Jonathanwallace (talk) 11:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't have a copy of the movie, but I now see that the Lust for Gold article was created by a long-time editor here and he credited the book and Storm. I've gone ahead and credited the book as basis for the movie.  Regards, CliffC (talk) 14:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Full books can be mentioned, especially if the topic is the topic of the book and is mentioned consistently, you can't always find virtual copies of the books and often cause viewers money, which is unreliable. Including full videos can also be mentioned. I guess we all should go by hat Blair says, the one source with online material.

Robert Blair
Who is Robert Blair? It briefly mentions his full name at the top but then throughout the entire article chimes in with "Although Blair says", "Blair, however thinks" and "Blair says"...it doesn't even say anything about who this guy is or what his qualifications are. There's no article about him and all I can find online is that he wrote some books about mines, not even very well known books at least. Oh and I just checked the citations, none of them actually link to anything and when I search "Tales of the Superstitions: The Origins of the Lost Dutchman Legend. Tempe: Arizona Historical Foundation" (The actual title of the book, unlike what is written in the citation.) All I get are links to pages that sell the book or other pages that have cited it (No independent review or authorization.). It's almost as though Blair himself edited the page and inserted his own opinion wherever possible to attract attention to his crappy books. Someone please find some CONCRETE evidence of who this guy is and why we should care what he thinks. Thank you --Rpm2004 (talk) 01:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE
i hVE SEEN THE LOST DUTCHMANS MINE IN REAL LIFE, I WENT TO THE SUPERS IN 1997 AND WAS TAKIN STRATE TO IT. AT FIRST I DIDNT RELIZE WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT. BUT AFTER A WHILE OF LOOKING AROUND, I RELIZED THAT I WAS LOOKING AT CAVES THAT WEAR SUROUNDED BY A BRICK WALK WAY. I FOUND GERONAMOS CAVE THAT WAS COVERED BY A LITTLE HOUSE WITH A WINDOW AT THE BOTTOM, THE HOUSE WAS HANGING FROM THE TOP OF THE CAVE AND THERE WERE BOULDERS ALONG THE BOTTOM OF THE CAVE SO IT WAS HARD TO DISERN BETWEEN THE MOUNTAIN AND THE CAVE. THEN I WALKED OVER A BRICK TRAIL THAT I DIDNT RELIZE WAS THE TOP OF THE PERALTA MINE UNTIL I STUCK MY FINGER IN AN ETCHING AND SAW THAT THE WORDS PERALTA MINE WAS ETCHED INTO THE MOUNTAIN ABOUT THREE FEET ABOVE THE BRICKS I WAS WALKING ON. THAT CAVE IS COVERED BY A GIANT CHRISTMAS TREE IN FRONT OF IT.THEN I CAME TO A HOUSE THAT WAS BROKEN WITH NO ROOF MADE OUT OF CLAY. I TURNED AROUND AND WENT BACK INFRONT OF THE PERALTA CAVE THAT I COULDNT SEE BECOUSE OF THE FOREST IN FRONT OF IT. PAST THAT I CAME TO THE LOST DUTCHMANS MINE CACHE WITCH IS A PERFECT CIRCLE THAT LOOKS LIKE A RED ROCK IN THE SIDE OF WHITE ROCK. THE MINE IS ON A LEDGE THAT IS ABOUT FIVE FEET HIGH ABOUT THIRTY FEET BACK COVERD BY ROCKS. IN BETWEEN GERONIMOS CAVE AND THE PERALTA CAVE. GOING UP ACROSS THE WAY FROM THE LEDGE THERES A PATH THAT LEADS TO A ROCK STAIR CASE THAT LEADS IN AND OUT OF THIS PLACE, THE PATH WAS MADE OF BRICKS AND HAD BRICK LEDGES ABOUT THREE FEET HIGH ON BOTH SIDES. EVERY SO OFTEN THERE WAS A SPOT WERE YOU COULD STEP TO THE SIDE SO OTHERS COULD PASS BY. I NOTICED THAT THE BRICKS WERE LAID LIKE A PROFESSIONAL DID IT, I THOUGHT THAT THE RANGERS HAD DONE IT UNTIL I NOTICED THE CAVES, THERE WERE SIX OF THEM AND THEY LOOKED LIKE THE MOUNTAIN EXCEPT FOR THE BRICKS THAT OUTLINED THEM, I WALKED INTO ONE OF THE PORCHES THAT WAS IN FRONT OF EACH,AND PULLED A BRICK FROM THE OUTLINE IN THE MOUNTAIN AND SAW THAT THERE WAS AN INCH OR TWO OF CLAY THEN THERE WAS HAY BETWEEN THAT. I RELIZED IT WAS A CAVE AND I WAS GOING TO YELL OR SOMETHING,WHEN I HEARD A GUN SHOT AND DECIDED TO WAIT AND BRING SOMEONE BACK WITH ME AND STAKE A CLAIM. THAT DIDNT HAPPEN AND ITS BEEN SIXTEEN YEARS AND TWO KIDS LATTER WHEN I WENT BACK, SOMETHING STEPED ON MY FOOT WHEN I STEPED INTO THE SHADOW AT THE BASE OF THE ROCK STAIR CASE TO GO IN AND IT STOOD IN FRONT OF ME SO THAT I COULDNT SEE THE ROCKS AND I FORGOT WHAT I WAS DOING FOR AWHILE WHEN I CAME BACK BY IT I COULDNT GET MY FREINDS TO GO IN WITH ME. SO IM STILL TRYING TO GET BACK TO IT. I SUMMIT THAT ALL THE TREASURE IS HIDDEN IN THE SAME AREA WITHEN A MOUNTAIN AT THE CORNER OF A BIG RIVER BED AND A SMALL RIVER BED IN BETWEEN TO BIGGER MOUNTAINS ON EITHER SIDE. THERE IS ANOTHER TRAIL NEXT TO THE STAIR CASE THAT IS EASIER TO USE, AND FASTER TO GET IN. A PINACLE IS SHADING THE AREA AND BAC THEN IT USED TO BE CLIMBED ALOT BEFORE THEY STOPED LETTING YOU PUT NEW STAKES IN...BY ROBIN BIRD, THE WOMAN WHO WENT TO THE DESERT AND GOT HIT BY A BLIZZERD. 1-30-2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.244.244.61 (talk) 20:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm! Just a suggestion: turn caps lock off, otherwise it seems like you're shouting! It's a good yarn, and I wish you luck with your searches ... Do take care out there.Jabberwock359 (talk) 10:49, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

No credit for Jacob Waltz, more about Peralta family needed
The Peralta family were a mining family and knew about the region, Jacob Waltz was said to have given them protection from the Apache Indians, but later turned the gun on them and took their gold after they told him about it, there was also a map called the peralta stones. He wouldn't have been able to find it without them.

I mean i know back then any ethnic minority were treated like savages and killed, with everything they had stolen. At least mention some credit to others in the modern world. Its one of the popular contraindications to this never ending story, at least mention it, whether its true or not, because none of the claims are solid. The Peralta family's aid to him was actually one of the solid claims. It just mentions what Blair thinks about the location of their mine.

The reason why it's mentioned after Jacob as such is because it was named by the exact people back then that took advantage of people and people since that day defended him, till now.

There other stories missing too, but this is a big one.

Sources: http://www.travelchannel.com/shows/mysteries-at-the-museum/video/riches-etched-in-stone http://www.americandownunder.com/phantom/qgf/waltzsearch.asp http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/ruth/Brownie%20Holmes%20vs%20James%20McCarthy%20-%20LDM%20Story.pdf

Mysteries at the Museum, Season2 Episode 5

Dutch
Included a brief change to the explanation of the term "Dutch": it is not a loanword from German, but rather the native English form of the German term "Deutsch", as further explained in this article.--67.175.85.9 (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

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The Legend of Jacob Waltz  A song written by Ed Putney
Southwestern singer songwriter Ed Putney born in Arizona now lives in Wyoming 2600:100E:B0AA:F18A:74D1:6D8E:64DB:5BEF (talk) 06:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)