Talk:Lou Gehrig/Archive 1

2006–February 2008

Lou and other sports
I recently found this picture of Lou Gehrig and Lester Patrick of the NY Rangers. Lou and Lester I vaguely remember reading that Lou was an avid Rangers hockey fan. Is there any evidence of this aside from this picture? Nyrmetros 00:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Continuity
The article mentions that Gehrig's wife, upon calling the Mayo clinic on or around May 2, 1939, spoke with Dr. Charles Horace Mayo (according to the link). According to the article on Dr. Mayo, he retired ten years before that date and died 24 days after it. I think it is highly unlikely that Mrs. Gehrig spoke with that Charles Mayo, or that the man&mdash;in his ailing state&mdash;“had been following Gehrig's career and his mysterious loss of strength”. The reference is probably to Charles William Mayo&mdash;the son of the aforementioned Charles Mayo, who does not as of this writing have a bibliography on Wikipedia.&mdash;Kbolino 19:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Something is wrong
"At the midpoint of the 1938 season, Gehrig's performance began to drastically diminish. At the end of that season, he said, "I tired midseason. I don't know why, but I just couldn't get going again." Eleanor was afraid it was caused by a brain tumor. Gehrig told her that he had been feeling the strength ebb away in his legs since his 30th birthday."

Could please someone please tell me what's the meaning of "ebb" in the above sentence? I'm suspecting a vandalism that was somehow missed, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I might be wrong; but if I'm not, I'm not sure what to do about it: remove it or replace with something else (but with what?) TIA! :) --Vlad|-> 15:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ebb means to worsen or decline. Petedoane 06:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Instead of jumping to the (erroneous) conclusion of vandalism, would it not have been more appropriate to consult a dictionary before posting your comment about the word "ebb"? 130.13.1.111 (talk) 05:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.1.111 (talk) 05:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That question was asked 14 months ago and answered 12 months ago. Cool it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Distinctions
"One of only seven players (Babe Ruth, Jimmie Foxx, Joe DiMaggio, Stan Musial, and Ted Williams) (J.J.Jammer) to end their career with a mini "

This line seems like an incomplete thought, perhaps a vandalism not repaired correctly or something? Also, why must this article meet the *Living* persons biography standards? 129.53.219.20 18:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC) matt g

I fixed it. For some reason the sentence got chopped off last November. Probably an accident. Matt Deres 02:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Where he lived
Why is this mentioned in the lead? Is it really that important? Quadzilla99 05:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed it. Quadzilla99 19:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Photo
I found and uploaded this to Wikimedia Commons in case anyone wants to use it in this article. Quadzilla99 19:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Done, I added it. Quadzilla99 05:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

American
In the photo which is him and which is Babe Ruth? The caption doesn't distinguish between them because it presupposes that the reader is American and will know one of the baseball players by sight.


 * Fixed. It was more obvious when the pic at the top was working. Matt Deres 23:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Two identical photographs of Lou Gehrig
Lou Gehrig's article contains two identical photos. This is silly. One of the photos should be deleted.

Anthony22 18:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I've replaced the one at the top, sorry it's not higher resolution. JGHowes 00:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Found much better pix (PD) for article lead and it's now there  JGHowes talk  -  00:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Green infobox?
Why is there green in the infobox? See Babe Ruth for instance. Quadzilla99 07:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just thought it looked better, someone reverted Babe Ruth back to gray.  JGHowes talk  -  10:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Have changed it to comply with WikiProject_Baseball_players  JGHowes talk  -  21:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Family
There does not seem to be much information regarding his family, including any information regarding his wife. One part of Gehrig's life that I am curious about is the fact that he never had any children. Is there any information about this?


 * I've added "They had no children" to the relevant section.  JGHowes talk  -  17:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"Luckiest Man" speech
There are differing versions of this speech in some details, probably because no complete verbatim recording of the entire speech apparently now exists. This is the version from the Lou Gehrig official website, provided by his wife Eleanor.  JGHowes talk  -  23:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Work as a Parole Officer?
I am wondering why you have no mention of Gehrig's work after his retirement. Despite his failing health, he worked every day as a Parole Officer in New York City. He was hired by Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia. His job was to decide whether to release people who had served time for various crimes. Among his cases was Thomas Rocco Barbella who later took the name Rocky Graziano and became a famous boxer. All of this is well-documented in such Gehrig biographies as Ray Robinson's Iron Horse and Jonathan Eig's The Luckiest Man. Many observers, including these biographers, view this work as real heroism on Gehrig's part; even though he was dying, he worked for the community. He could have made much more money doing endorsements. 70.108.4.75


 * It was there, but not displaying due to a typo. It's fixed now, see "Final Years" section. Thx for pointing out this omission - you're the first to notice it was missing since August 1st!  JGHowes  talk  -  23:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Cal Ripken
The reference to Cal Ripken needs clarification. Ripken was idle during a substantial portion of the 1994 season on account a baseball strike. In my view, that breaks his consecutive game streak. Therefore, Ripken did not break Gehrig's record, because Gehrig never took the summer off like that. 130.13.1.111 (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.1.111 (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * While I must admit that I have grappled with this as well, I don't think it belongs here. It might (and I must emphasize "might") belong in the Ripken article if you can find some third party references to support that contention.  The fact is: Major League Baseball fully and absolutely recognizes Ripken's record.  To simply state that Ripken's record might not be legitimate, and not provide sources to show this, is a violation of WP:OR and likely violates NPOV.


 * Aside from that, there are things about Gehrig's record that may not pass muster: there were more than a few games where Gehrig was given a single at-bat to keep the record going (compared to Ripken, who played a substantially larger percentage of the innings of the games played).  Gehrig traveled a lot less because of the nature of the schedule (and never traveled further than St. Louis).  Ripken had to pay despite bouncing back from games in Seattle, Anaheim, Arlington, etc.  Thus is could be argued that on a season by season basis, Ripken sawa  lot more wear and tear.  I'm not a gigantic Ripken fan, but I also see both sides here.  I think in the end, it is a wash:  both players had certain advantages and disadvantages to overcome, and each did well in overcoming them. LonelyBeacon (talk) 06:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, and other than 1994, Ripken was compelled to play 8 games extra per season than Gehrig was. He played full seasons during 1983-1993, which is an extra half-season's worth of games right there. Some might argue that got him to the record sooner (the "Roger Maris argument"). I don't recall seeing anyone make any arguments about Ripken's streak, statistically, be it the 80-plus extra games or the strike. The main complaint was that he kept the streak going even if he was in a hitting slump. FYI, the IP address user made the same argument here and the answer is the same. The record is whatever MLB defines it to be. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, as you infer, at a certain point, for each player, the streak took on a life of its own. Gehrig and Ripken both did whatever it took to keep the streak going. Gehrig played only 8 games in 1939, and by then couldn't hit a lick. He did the graceful thing and took himself out, rather than forcing the manager to bench him. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is an interesting point (made in the Ripken article, as I recall) that the Orioles refused to field a replacement team during spring 1995. The strike was settled before the regular season started, so the whole issue became moot... but if the season had started with replacements, and if the O's had used them, Ripken's streak would have come to an end. The fact that he "sat out" the last part of 1994 is irrelevant, as everyone "sat out". There were no games. Had replacements been used at any point, that would have snapped the streak. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To put it another way, neither Ripken nor any other full-time player was "idle during the 1994 season". The season ended on August 12th. OK, that's enough of driving in tacks with a sledgehammer. d:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

John Paul Parks, Wikipedia articles do not represent the views of its editors or readers. Wikipedia articles represent facts (at least that's the idea). This is not the place for original research, it is the place for verifiable facts from reliable resources. In other words, articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

Your view is interesting, but it is not from a reliable resource. The fact is that Major League Baseball acknowledges Cal Ripken, Jr. as the breaker of Lou Gehrig's consecutive game streak. Major League Baseball, being the official organization of Major League Baseball is a reliable resource on this issue.

That's not to say your view has no place here. If you can find a reliable resource (like essays, books, news articles from reliable writers) that support your claim, we can add that to this article.

Hope that helps, Kingturtle (talk) 14:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

ejection
"Gehrig was ejected from a game, along with manager Joe McCarthy, but he had already been at bat, so he got credit for playing the game."

That would only be significant to the streak if it happened in the first inning. In what inning did it happen? Kingturtle (talk) 19:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Name change
sup When and why did he change his rude name from Ludwig Heinrich Gehrig to Henry Louis Gehrig? If he was going to call himself Lou, why did he make that his middle name instead of first? leevclarke (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunno, but I wouldn't be surprised if he anglicized it during WWI, when there was a lot of anti-German prejudice. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

But if he was already born in the USA, would not his parents give him English names? I mean now it is a totally different story, but back over a 100 years ago, I find it a bit strange that immigrants to the USA would give their child German names. Plus he was only 11 years old when WW I had begun. Norum (talk) 00:14, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

He never changed it because he was never actually named "Ludwig Heinrich Gehrig." Jonathan Eig's recent biography of Gehrig, Luckiest Man, makes clear that the name recorded on his birth certificate was "Henry Louis Gehrig," and during his childhood, he was always called "Lou," never "Ludwing" or "Heinrich." Don't know where this idea that he was given a German name started, but it is erroneous.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 20:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Gehrig's Riverdale address
Can Gehrig's actual Riverdale address be added to this article? I am curious, having grown up in Riverdale in the 60's and 70's.Jfschachter (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Illness" section
Doesn't seem to be about his illness at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M. Frederick (talk • contribs) 14:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Diagnosis section
"At Eleanor's request, the Mayo doctors intentionally withheld his grim prognosis from Gehrig." So, when did Gehrig learn about the prognosis? BytEfLUSh (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

In this same section, I find (with changes I just put in):

"As Lou Gehrig's debilitation became steadily worse (he stumbled over curbs, mishandled fielding plays, and fell while running the bases), ..."

OK, but can someone put in some time clarification? This item is appearing after we have read of Gehrig ending his playing, but the references to fielding plays and running the bases would be from when he was still playing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 20:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The iron biscuit?
I've heard ("Jeopardy!", to be exact) claim Gehrig was nicknamed "Biscuit Pants". This is a bit hard to believe; can anybody confirm? Add here, if so. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  01:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Why so many citations?
I was mildly surprised to see citations in this article for many, many facts that no reasonable person would dispute, including various statistics that are well established. I'm curious - does anyone know why someone found it necessary to cite, for example, that Gehrig went 4-for-14 with four singles in the 1938 World Series? Bonehed (talk) 05:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Likely ALS misdiagnosis
NYT reports under Study Says Brain Trauma Can Mimic A.L.S." that ALS can be diagnosed only by examination of the spinal cord, presumably for the foreseeable future only post-mortem, and appears to be drastically over-diagnosed, at least among those subject to repeated head trauma. His long history of head-trauma sports and "Iron Horse" rep for playing hurt will, IMO, make him the presumptive poster-child for the misdiagnosis, if not for playing hurt.   My impulse was to start editing, but instead i'm going to see first if anyone else is having the same impulse, here or at A.L.S.'s talk page: Edit conflicts are such a drag! --Jerzy•t 21:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've commented at Talk:Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis on why this wouldn't be a good idea, and how declaring that Gehrig was misdiagnosed is claiming far more than is supported by the evidence (and sources). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis; this is a classic example of why we don't rely on the lay media or primary sources for medical reports. The NYT got it completely wrong, as they (and other lay media) often do with medical issues. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 13:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the concussion suffered as a result of the HBP from Ray White is certainly notable, and I will add it. I believe that it might be worthy of a few lines, though certainly without going so far as to call him misdiagnosed. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with TenOfAllTrades and SandyGeorgia. Physicians and medical historians have been arguing for decades over Gehrig's precise diagnosis -- it was a lively topic when I was in med school (30 years ago), and it gets hotter each time the demyelinating diseases are further subdivided.  The problem is this:  Originally it was thought that ALS was one disease with many clinical variants depending on circumstances, genetics, etc.; but It turns out that there are a bunch of demyelinating diseases, all with very similar symptoms, one of which is ALS; and it can be very hard to tell them apart -- particularly when the patient in question is long gone.  Without brain or cord tissue to look at, we'll never have a definitive answer on Gehrig; but I don't know of anyone with a reputation on the line who would hang his/her hat on head trauma as the cause.  Lots of batters got beaned in those days (there were no batting helmets, remember) -- and only Gehrig developed ALS (or whatever it was).  For those reasons I'm not sure the Ray White HBP is worth significant mention -- and I'm quite sure that it cannot be verifiably proposed as a diagnosis. DoctorJoeE (talk) 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I definitely agree that we should not in any way, shape or form suggest that Gehrig did not have ALS. However, the possibility of brain trauma got significant coverage, so it may be relevant to discussion of Gehrig. Of course, we could conclude it with confirmation of the ALS diagnosis. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not using that flippant, sarcastic source, we can't. If you re-read it closely, you'll see that it does not say anything about Gehrig's diagnosis, nor present any evidence to support that Gehrig in fact had ALS.  The writer is saying that whatever disease Gehrig had should be called Lou Gehrig's disease -- in other words, Lou Gehrig's disease could be ALS, or it could be something else; i.e. if it is ever proven that Gehrig had something else, THAT disease should be called Lou Gehrig's disease, not ALS.  So that inane, feeble attempt at cleverness is of no help to this article whatsoever. DoctorJoeE (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have raised this issue at halloffame=yes|halloffame-importance=, primarily because the editor refuses to discuss it and is continuing to edit-war over it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I am the user who re-posted a SHORT passage about a POSSIBLE alternate theory regarding Mr. Gehrig's demise. Why so hostile??? Do you have access to Mr Gerhig's Mayo clinic files? (I didn't think so.) The alternative diagnosis is not some 'fringe theory' but comes from a peer-reviewed article, from a leading medical journal (which is cited).

Subsequently, it deserves to be mentioned in the article, not relegated to some other medical article. Don't worry his legacy as a player will not be diminished in the least

A small passage (one or two sentences) discussing a possible different diagnosis (Mr. Gerhig suffered from repeated head trauma and did not rest or refrain from an activity...this is FACT), most certainly deserves to be mentioned. After all it IS part of his career and life.

I will continue to edit until we have a serious discussion, not some opinion from a self-anointed 'expert'.

Produce Mr. Gerhig's Mayo clinic medical records that refute a alternative theory and I will gladly refrain from any further postings on the subject. Until then please to not censor information that is relevant to the subject at hand.

thank you.The Rakish Fellow (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC).


 * Rakish Fellow, a careful reading of your source article reveals that it is not proposing an "alternative diagnosis" for Gehrig, or "players like Gehrig", as implied in the content you added today. It presents a bit of highly esoteric histologic evidence suggesting that the incidence of ALS may be increased in association with head injury.  Nowhere does it say that athletes in "collision sports" (baseball is never mentioned) who died of ALS did not have ALS, only that their repeated head trauma may have been a contributing factor to their development of ALS.


 * I now see that someone has already reverted the edit, so the point is moot; but may I also suggest, with all respect, that you read WP:TIGER and relax a bit. DoctorJoeE   talk to me!  21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Reaction to Gehrig benching himself, 2 May 1939
As heartfelt as how the events of that day are told, it could not have happened as described in the seventh paragraph of the "Illness" section of the article.

Gehrig not being listed on the starting line-up card does not automatically stop his streak of 2,130 games; he could have come into the game as a pinch-hitter, or a defensive substitution later in the game, and the streak would have continued. Indeed, on 5 July 1925, Gehrig was not in the starting line-up and only came into the game in the 9th inning, pinch-hitting for Fred Merkle. This became Gehrig's 34th consecutive game played.

Perhaps George Barres, the public address announcer at Navin Field, did explicitly point out to the crowd that day that Gehrig wasn't in the starting line-up, perhaps the significance of his absense from the line-up was aware to everyone there in Detroit that day, but the streak could only have been declared over at 2,130 games only after: a) the game was declared official (i.e., at least 5 innings are completed, 4 1/2 if the team batting second is ahead before the start of the bottom of the 5th), and b) that at the conclusion of the game Gehrig had not played a field position for at least one-half inning, or pinch-hit reaching base or being put out, and had not been ejected from the game before having had a chance to satisfy either requirement.

The point here is simply that, even if Gehrig told the umpires that he would not be playing that game, the public address man would not have announced to the crowd that after 2,130 games the streak was officially over, before the game itself was declared completed, let alone even begun. For example, if that day, Red Ormsby, the umpire-in-chief for the game and umpiring at first base, declared the game a rain-out in the 3rd inning, say, the streak would have still been intact.

Perhaps, as described in the article, Gehrig did shed tears in the dugout, realizing he would not be playing that day; perhaps everyone in attendance did give him a standing ovation, the ominous feeling prevailing that Gehrig would not be playing that day.

The streak itself, however, ended not in the sudden dramatic fashion before the game in the way the article describes; instead, it transpired before the crowd as the game progressed, and only officially ended the moment that Tiger centerfielder Barney McCosky, their lead-off batter, became the final out in the bottom of the 9th inning in a 22-2 win for the Yankees. Nichlusmanne (talk) 15:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC) nichlusmanne

ALS section?
What do we think about the recent addition of a section on ALS? Does this belong in the article? I vote no. Shouldn't those interested in learning more about ALS simply go to the ALS article? I vote yes. I would like to remove this section, unless someone can explain to me why it is appropriate. DoctorJoeE  talk to me!  00:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're precisely right, which is why I removed it. It was a WP:COATRACK. Information on ALS is easily accessible on the page on ALS. This page is for Lou Gehrig, not ALS. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Aha! That's the first I've heard of that one. One can learn something new every day on Wikipedia. DoctorJoeE  talk to me!  01:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction of ALS dates
Article seems to state that he was diagnosed at 36, and 2 years later, it claimed his life, but he died at 37. Somewhere there is a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.131.147.158 (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The diagnosis was made on June 19, 1939 -- his 36th birthday. He died on June 2, 1941 -- a couple of weeks before his 38th birthday.  So there is no problem.  DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  15:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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much more than a baseball player
The article says almost nothing about Gehrig being much more than a baseball player and about his values and other interests, f.ex. his appreciation of opera, ballet, and literature. That link also talks about his mentoring of young players, his plans for retirement before being diagnosed with ALS, financial good sense, plans for ensuring his parents' and his wife's financial security, and many other things missing from this article. --Espoo (talk) 13:13, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Editorializing
The lead states: "Gehrig was renowned for his prowess as a hitter and for his durability, a trait that tragically and ironically earned him his nickname 'The Iron Horse'." It's not immediately clear why the nickname was "tragic" and "ironic". I guess it's because he ended up retiring early due to disease? Anyway, the phrase "tragically and ironically" seems to be editorializing unless there's a source that specifically refers to the nickname as such. 2600:1700:E190:2D20:81F7:E810:7257:BC44 (talk) 03:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I removed that part, if that means anything. It now reads, "Gehrig was renowned for his prowess as a hitter and for his durability, which earned him his nickname 'The Iron Horse.'" What do you think? DD2009 (talk) 16:54, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

"persuaded by his wife"
Was hoping someone could clarify the middle paragraph, where he is "persuaded by his wife...to end the streak at 1,999 games" but somehow manages to make it to 2,130. I found it confusing.

"In addition, X-rays taken late in his life disclosed that Gehrig had sustained several fractures during his playing career, although he remained in the lineup despite those previously undisclosed injuries.[50] However, the streak was helped when Yankees general manager Ed Barrow postponed a game as a rainout on a day when Gehrig was sick with the flu, though it was not raining.[51]

He was also persuaded by his wife, Elanor, to end the streak at 1,999 games by acting sick, as he already played through flu bouts before, and a nearly 700-game lead over the previous record.

Gehrig's record of 2,130 consecutive games endured for 56 years until Baltimore Orioles shortstop Cal Ripken Jr. surpassed it on September 6, 1995; Ripken finished with 2,632 consecutive games.[52]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ameet14 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

But the streak continued
I find "He was also persuaded by his wife, Eleanor, to end the streak at 1,999 games by acting sick, as he already played through flu bouts before, and a nearly 700-game lead over the previous record." It would imply that he did end the streak then; should say that this isn't what happened. This streak continued to 2,130. Carlm0404 (talk) 14:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

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The idea the Lou Gehrig was possibly misdiagnosed has been reported on in the mainstream media
Since the idea that Lou Gehrig was possibly misdiagnosed has been reported in the mainstream media, we should at least include a single sentence regarding that fact. This doesn't mean we need to take any position on it anything but the fact that this has been reported by the media is relevant to the article regardless of whether the mainstream medical establishment accepts this possibility or not ans I am not aware of this being a settled issue as 2022. Here is just one of many article on the subject: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/did-lou-gehrig-actually-die-of-lou-gehrigs-disease Notcharliechaplin (talk) 05:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

German-American
Austin Joseph App ... was a German-American professor ...

Henry Louis Gehrig (born Heinrich Ludwig Gehrig ...) was an American professional baseball first baseman ...

Good = American, bad = German-American. What an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.147.63 (talk) 11:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)