Talk:Loudon Wainwright Jr.

Move request
I've found no solid evidence that he was ever in his life identified as a "II" rather than a "Jr."; indeed, I'd never seen "II" used until I came to Wikipedia. There are of course "II" references found in Googling, but they do not predominate and are mostly uses of this article. Mangoe 17:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you'd cite some evidence from Reliable sources of the use of "Jr." I'd probably support the move. Gene Nygaard 18:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Was he still called Jr after his son's birth ? His son refers to his father as Loudon (II) here - http://lwiii.com/lwbiogr1.html - but it is hard to know if he is being serious. -- Beardo 23:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * His daughter Sloan Wainwright offers this geneology in which he is specifically listed as "Jr.". I've been trying to find out how he was listed in his high school yearbook but it is not readily available; I think this is good enough evidence, however. Mangoe 12:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Googlefight says 1,160 for "Loudon Wainwright II" vs only 490 for "Loudon Wainwright Jr". -- Beardo 05:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not a good standard; a lot of the "II" references can be traced back to here. Mangoe 10:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I closed this move request for lack of consensus. FWIW, all you need to do is add "-wikipedia" to a Google search will remove Wikipedia-related pages. With that done, "II" still wins quite handily. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's because most of those references appear to be either more indirectly derivative of wikipedia (e.g. the IMDB ref) or are simple typos or even hits on his son. For instance, Googling loudon "wainwright ii" -wikipedia produces some hits on LW III that don't mention his father at all, and some where he is incorrectly identified at some point on the page as LW II. If you explicitly exclude "III" then almost every hit is for "III" anyway; they just didn't type it right. Furthermore, searching for "Jr." without "III" produces a lot of hits which show that people can't keep straight which is which, including one from someone who knew both father and son. Google counting on this matter is just rubbish. Mangoe 14:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, maybe you have a point. While the -wikipedia filters out obvious Wikipedia references, I do still see a lot of hits that are actually typos meant for his son.  Still, I don't see any convincing evidence that his name was definitely Jr. and not II.  But you have my attention!  :)  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go check Who Was Who at lunch. Mangoe 15:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that didn't help. I did find a listing in Contemporary Authors which I have used to amplify and correct the article. Here's the rub, however: as an author it appears that he was always "Loudon Wainwright" or "Loudon S. Wainwright". (He is so listed in the New York Times obit.) I haven't found a single bibliographic entry that includes either "Jr." or "II". This weekend I should be able to take a look in his high school yearbook, but if that doesn't give us an answer, it would seem that the correct solution would be for him to take over Loudon Wainwright article and prefix that with a for the singer see Loudon Wainwright III annotation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mangoe (talk • contribs).
 * Interesting idea. I wouldn't fight it unless someone can find a decent source to the contrary. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Definitive answer
I have viewed his high school yearbook, and he is clearly listed as "Loudon S. Wainwright Jr." 1942 Criss Cross, p. 20, St. Andrews School Publications.

At this point I would point the "II" article at the disambig page, since it's clear that someone looking at the internet stands a good chance of looking for the wrong guy. Mangoe 02:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sold on Jr. instead of II. Now I'm on another question about the dab page.  Correct me if I'm wrong (I only wandered in here to close out a WP:RM so I'm out of my area of expertise) but when someone does a search on "Loudon Wainwright", isn't there a far higher likelihood that they were trying to find LWIII the person?  If so, I vote for the following:
 * Move Loudon Wainwright II to Loudon Wainwright, Jr..
 * Change Loudon Wainwright to a redirect to Loudon Wainwright III.
 * Add two see also links to the top of Loudon Wainwright III.
 * I'm not a big fan of dab pages without "(disambiguation)" unless there is a nearly equal likelihood between any entries on that page. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, it might be better to have II redirect to Jr. (as it is now since I moved) simply because Wikipedia has now propogated II into the world. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:56, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Children
The article says that Martha was only the mother of Anna - so who was the mother of the other four children? (but the list of the 'other four' mentions all 5, including Anna again). And Loudon Wainwright III says LWIII's mother was Martha, so something's out of kilter here. I don't have the knowledge to fix it though. Colonies Chris 18:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There's clearly something wrong here, and I can't get a clear picture of what the actual facts are. I've seen several references to a "Teddy" (sister) but I can't tell whether or not this is a nickname, and if it is, what her true first name is. Pending better data I'm going to cut this down to the two descendants who I can find proof for: Loudon III and Sloan. Mangoe 13:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And it's intriguing that Sloan's website family tree doesn't mention a mother at all. Colonies Chris 15:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the problem is that the wife Martha and the "companion" Martha are two different people. If she is LW III's "youngest sister" (bio on her site) then it would appear that "Sloan" and "Anna" are the same person. Mangoe 18:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the answer, I know them all. There are many Marthas associated with the Wainwrights. LWII and Martha Taylor were married and had 4 kids... LWIII, Martha (nickname Teddy), Andrew and Sloan. LWII had a 5th child with another Martha, who they named Anna. LWIII has 3 kids, Rufus and Martha with singer Kate McGarrigle and Lucy with singer Suzzy Roche. He may have had a 4th more recently, but I'm not sure of that. There are so many Marthas in the family that Sloan wrote a song about them. Singer/songwriter Sloan has 2 sons with huband George, singer/songwriter Sam, and Gabe.

Grandchildren
Equally as important as the resolved Children debate above, grandchildren should also be listed. Below is an incomplete list of grandchildren by parent:

Loudon Wainwright III

 * Rufus Wainrright
 * Martha Wainwright
 * Lucy Wainwright Roche

Sloan Wainwright

 * Sam McTavey
 * Gabe McTavey

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