Talk:Louisa Baring, Lady Ashburton

Highland chieftainess
We say that "Louisa was a Highland chieftainess of the Seaforth family". This is presumably sourced to the letter in The Spectator. However, her maternal grandfather Francis Mackenzie, 1st Baron Seaforth was chief of Clan Makenzie, so it seems more likely that she was chief of Clan Makenzie. The source is a letter to the editor of a magazine, and as such it may not be reliable. Perhaps the writer knew that she was a chieftainess and jumped to the conclusion that it was of the Seaforth family. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:43, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am a bit vague on how these titles pass along, but if you believe that this is mare likely, (pinion) make the change.Carptrash (talk) 18:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Louisa's mother does show up here, Chiefs of Clan Mackenzie. But, as Artie Johnson used to say, "but what does it mean?" Carptrash (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not an expert here, I think the Lord Lyon King of Arms has something to do with recognising Scottish titles. The Clan Mackenzie Society recognises Lady Mary Stewart-Mackenzie as their chief, I assume this is Mary Elizabeth Frederica Mackenzie. This site says that Louisa Caroline was the youngest of her five children, and that she was outlived by her older sister Mary Frances. It therefore seems unlikely that Louisa Caroline was a clan chief. I will remove the claim. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:02, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I know diddly about titles, but the ODNB says the Seaforth title died with Louisa's father, Louisa's mother Mary Elizabeth got the estates, and the clan the chiefship passed to Mackenzie of Allengrange. Thus the clan chieftonship did not stay in this family. (subscription needed) SusunW (talk) 14:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Jewish descent
The Westminster Synagogue says that Louisa was of Jewish descent. In my view that we should not add this without more details, such as which ancestor was a practising Jew or identified as Jewish. The site also says that she was the first occupant of Kent House in Knightsbridge, which is now the Westminster Synagogue. This page gives more history on Kent House. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I like you was reluctant to insert something without other claims to authenticate it. The ODNB says she got her looks from her "Portuguese Sephardi paternal grandmother". Which I am guessing would be Georgina Isabella D'Aguilar, and this history of Parliament confirms Georgina had Jewish heritage. SusunW (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


 * , according to your history of Parliament source, Louisa's father's mother was Georgina Isabella D’Aguilar, who was the granddaughter of Baron D’Aguilar, a Portuguese Jew naturalized in England (either Baron Diego Pereira d'Aguilar or Ephraim Lópes Pereira d'Aguilar, 2nd Baron d'Aguilar). That would make Louisa one-sixteenth Jewish, which I think is too remote to mention in the article. More details are given here. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:54, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Article title
The article is currently titled "Louisa Caroline Stewart-Mackenzie", which is her maiden name. I have found no evidence that she was known by this name after marriage. In Talk:Bingham Baring, 2nd Baron Ashburton I proposed changing this article's title to "Louisa Caroline Baring", her married name, which supported. However, I am now not sure. I have seen no evidence that she used her middle name, and most sources refer to her as Lady Ashburton.

There is guidance in Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)


 * Articles on the wives of hereditary peers are generally headed {First name} {Married name}, {Title}, as Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire; using her maiden name and so calling her Georgiana Spencer, Duchess of Devonshire would be anachronism.

On this basis I propose to rename this article to "Louisa Baring, Lady Ashburton". We could wait until the suggested merge has been resolved, but I think it is clear where that is heading. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I concur. Had sources been found under any other name, it might be different. But all the sources I found called her Lady Ashburton. SusunW (talk) 02:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Done. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2017 (UTC)