Talk:Low (David Bowie album)

Discrepancy between this page and 'Berlin Trilogy'
Hello, I thought it strange that Bowie is said to have moved to France in 1976 - I always believed it was Switzerland and that is what the 'Berlin Trilogy' page says. I'm not sure how to verify. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi ! The Berlin Trilogy page is outdated. I intend to one of these days go through it and make corrections based on my expansions of the individual albums but I'll explain. The Low and as of recently The Idiot pages make it clear on what actually transpired.


 * So both Bowie and Iggy Pop were in dark places by 1976. Both wanted to overcome their addictions and after Pop joined Bowie on the Isolar tour, they both agreed they were going move to Europe. Bowie first moved to Switzerland with Angie in May, but afterwards he rarely stayed there. Bowie and Pop then visited the Chateau in France, where Bowie decided he was going to record both his next album (Low) and Pop's first solo album (The Idiot). They didn't move to Berlin until after Low was mostly completed. So to answer your question, Bowie moved to Switzerland right after the Isolar tour but during the recording of both The Idiot and Low, he lived at the Chateau in France. Hope this helps! – zmbro (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Right! Yes that's great. Thanks for your expertise - I thought something was wrong.Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

About 'Side Two'
Firstly, I think this an excellent page! But I'd like to see more about the music because it so unusual and groundbreaking, seminal. There are also a couple of things that I would change or add for clarity, but I won't steam in:

Warszawa: Text says based on 'ABC' but it's played a semitone up in the music - B flat - C - D flat. "wordless vocals from Bowie" - I believe it is unverifiable by written word that Eno sang the second 'high' part of the vocal. Bowie has never sung it live, it is beyond his range and Eno's voice is heard clearly and is very distinctive (sorry I have mentioned this elsewhere). It's a question for Wikipedia - should we propagate a written 'verified' half-truth?

Art Decade: Reference to a 'cello solo' I think is an error. There's no solo (as in a guitar or sax solo) and 'solo cello' is also not right. Meyer is credited with 'Cellos' - which are part of a group of voices playing the theme. I wouldn't call it a 'feature'. I think the point is that the engineer joined the band?

Subterraneans: Elgar's 'Nimrod' is quoted near the beginning - played by a string-synth. I see the whole structure as very unusual, having made a transcription of all four pieces, but I cannot contribute original research. Musical facts might be allowed, I'm uncertain how to verify as there appears to be no musical analysis anywhere that I can find. The 'Nimrod' quote is one example. Subterraneans is based on cycle of 26 beats - six bars of four and one of two, or thirteen minims (half-notes). So if I were to publish that, does it need citation? I'm continuing to search for sources. Any pointer's appreciated.

I'm looking at classical music pages and seeing all the analysis, manuscript examples etc. Feel this is worthy of the same attention.

Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Tbh the article is still missing many things, which is why it's nowhere near GA or FA level yet. I started expanding it back in July and after I got Seabrook's Bowie in Berlin (fascinating book btw), it gave me a shitton of insight to Bowie's life during this time. He goes in great detail on the entire 75–79 period, covering the first Isolar tour up to Lodger, even covers Iggy's The Idiot and Lust for Life (both of which I've expanded with that).


 * Regarding side two of Low, I would not use https://bowiesongs.wordpress.com as a reference, I never have and you can never really trust what's on there. I could probably add more regarding side two to match more of side one's length. I kept it mostly simple to avoid going into exquisite detail like I originally did with Hunky Dory. Regarding what I've added previously with side two, I only go based on what Bowie's biographers say, plus any online reviewer I find says.


 * To answer your question, everything you write on WP has to be sourced (from somewhere reliable – which isn't https://bowiesongs.wordpress.com). I personally own Pegg (2016), Cann (2010), Doggett (2012), Seabrook (2008), Buckley (2005), and O'Leary (both Rebel Rebel and Ashes to Ashes (2015 and 2019)). I have further access to Spitz (2009), Sandford (1997), and Trynka (2011) via the Open Library. One thing I don't own is Carr & Murray's An Illustrated Record (only covers up to '85 I believe but it's still cited everywhere) I would suggest looking into acquiring any one of these if you plan to expand. Pegg and O'Leary cover every song Bowie recorded (plus a few more), Doggett covers all of his songs between 69–80, and Seabrook covers every track on The Idiot, Low, Lust for Life, "Heroes", and Lodger. I would personally start with any of them. – zmbro (talk) 23:01, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Zmbro Thanks, that's a very comprehensive guide indeed! I'll get Seabrook now - I'm fascinated by the Berlin period. I had already spotted errors on the website you mention so I was glad for your comment, but it's the work of O'Leary who is cited elsewhere, which presents some kind of dilemma. What do we do when accepted authorities make mistakes? Moot question. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Sadly I come across this a lot. Many of his biographers (notably Sandford who Pegg criticises) get things wrong. Usually I try to see if one or more agree on some things to see who's really right, as we can't all get things correct. I find Pegg is most of the time accurate with what he says, but sometimes doesn't go into that much detail (the Berlin period for example he skims over while Seabrook goes "all out"). For quite a few years now Bowie's official website has been "finding evidence" that gives different release dates than what was previously known (16 June instead of 6 June for Ziggy for example). In these instances I use what the official website says and note the other release dates in a note. Really it all comes down to what multiple people agree on. Hope this helps! – zmbro (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2021 (UTC):: Hey there. I saw your post over at the Teahouse. I just wanted to say that if you want to start expanding the page with more info on the music be careful. Because this is the album article, you really don't want to be too detailed. You only want to have things on the album page that are directly related to the overall album itself. The more detailed things should be reserved for the individual song articles. I originally had this issue when expanding Hunky Dory, Ziggy Stardust, and Aladdin Sane; I ended up having to trim a bunch of info (that's mainly why I kept the info on side two limited here). Just keep that in mind when looking into expanding the Low article. I'd be more than willing to help out :-) – zmbro (talk) 00:04, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Zmbro Ok Thanks that's helpful. I'm just looking at other Bowie album pages to try and get a pattern - thinking the song titles should be a list with the timings - I checked Station to Station. I'll need to pause and learn some techniques first as you can see. But I get your point, as opposed to 'be bold' - I tread softly here. Timings are important to the shape of this album as you know - it'd be nice to see. But if I expand on the tracks I'll use the song pages then. By the way the 'eventide harmoniser' link takes you to the wrong picture - couldn't see a fix. Are you the main author of the song pages also for Low? Thelisteninghand (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Station to Station was brought to GA by Ian Rose back in '08 and is indeed of a major update. I haven't gotten around to that one yet. Never Let Me Down was brought to GA by 87Fan I think in 2013 but I've since made expansions to that. I started all these Bowie expansions back in late 2019/early 2020 but since starting I have not personally worked on any songs tracks for Low. The only Bowie song articles I've worked on are "Modern Love", "Rebel Rebel", "Soul Love", "Five Years", "The Man Who Sold the World", "Changes", and "Starman". I have wanted to do "Sound and Vision" but haven't gotten to that yet. I've primarily been working on album articles. Many of his songs articles in their current states need efficient expansions and sourcing. – zmbro (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Zmbro Thanks again. It's all great work! I look forward to contributing whatever I can, and apologies for mistaken comment re. timings. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:49, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Oops!
Hello - such a good article, but "Reappraisal" - there's a double entry of Sheffield's quote about 'overstimulated mind in an exhausted body'. No irony! Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure how I, nor no one else, noticed that. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 18:03, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Cheers. But we still have double entry of Sheffield in second para '..sashays..' The second time cites Rolling Stone Album Guide so I didn't want to simply delete.

Also, is it permissible to say things about the music citing the printed sheet music https://www.amazon.com/David-Bowie-Low-Station-Songbook/dp/B0013GCE1S eg "the bass line for Subterraneans is a cycle of 26 beats" or would that be considered OR? Thanks Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)


 * That'd be something that belongs on the song page not here. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 18:25, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Switzerland
The phrase bothers me - "Afterwards, Bowie travelled back to Switzerland, where he spent the next few months writing and planning his next album". How could Bowie be in Switzerland for a few months if he was recording an album in France at that time with Pop? Maybe a few of weeks? "Bowie and Pop regrouped at the Château in June 1976. Through August they recorded" - according to the text he was in France, not Switzerland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazzfan777 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this up. I must have misinterpreted the source when I was first writing it. Hopefully my adjustment clears it up. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 22:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * fix it please in Berlin Trilogy stub too -Jazzfan777 (talk) 23:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * All set. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 02:13, 21 September 2022 (UTC)