Talk:Low German

Vowel Chart
I have, at least temporarily, removed the following vowel chart:


 * The list given represents the phonology of the Plautdietsch dialect.
 * {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" class="wikitable"

! IPA !! Description !! word ! colspan="3" style="text-align:left; background:#dedede"| monophthongs Plautdietsch is a mixture of Low Prussian, itself a Low German dialect with Baltic influence, and Dutch that underwent further Russian influence as a minority language. It is so utterly non-indicative of the general phonology Low-German that having only this chart in a section on Low German phonology is worse than nothing.
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || ha
 * || Near-close near-front unrounded vowel || Kjnt
 * || Open-mid front unrounded vowel || mt
 * || Near-open front unrounded vowel || Kjokj
 * || Open back rounded vowel || Gtt
 * || Near-close near-back rounded vowel || Bck
 * || Close front rounded vowel || Hs
 * || Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel || Lst
 * || Open-mid central unrounded vowel || fhäa
 * || Schwa || schmäar
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || Tn
 * }
 * || Near-close near-back rounded vowel || Bck
 * || Close front rounded vowel || Hs
 * || Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel || Lst
 * || Open-mid central unrounded vowel || fhäa
 * || Schwa || schmäar
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || Tn
 * }
 * || Schwa || schmäar
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || Tn
 * }
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || Tn
 * }

Here is a vowel chart that was for Northern Low Saxon that was deleted for no apparent reason on 2009-10-16. I don't entirely agree with it, e.g. the long a as seems wrong to me and the very conspicuous rounding of the short i is not mentioned; but in my mind, is a far better starting point. Said with all due caution, Northern Low Saxon is generally regarded as the most representative Low German dialect and it is not unreasonable to take this dialect as a reference:
 * Northern Low German (Low Saxon) dialects:
 * {| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" class="wikitable"

! IPA !! Description !! word !! meaning ! colspan="3" style="text-align:left; background:#dedede"| monophthongs
 * || Close front unrounded vowel || hr, m || here, me
 * || Near-close near-front unrounded vowel || Knd, k || child, I
 * || Close back rounded vowel || Hs || house
 * || Near-close near-back rounded vowel || mtt || must
 * || Close front rounded vowel || Hs’ || houses
 * || Near-close near-front rounded vowel || Lck || gap
 * || Open-mid front unrounded vowel || mt, Bdd || with, bed
 * || Close-mid front unrounded vowel or Open-mid front unrounded vowel || gven, Thn || to give, tooth
 * || Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Close central rounded vowel || hg || high
 * || Open back rounded vowel || Ptt, Bck || pot, buck
 * || Close-mid front rounded vowel or Open-mid front rounded vowel || ver, ver || over
 * || Open-mid front rounded vowel || Ptt || pots
 * || Open back rounded vowel or Close-mid back rounded vowel || St || seed
 * || Open front unrounded vowel || Ktt || cat
 * }
 * Short vowels are slightly lengthened before nasals (m, n, ng) and liquids (l, r). The sequence /ar/ sounds like in Australian English; e.g. Karr 'cart' like Australian English "car".
 * || Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Close central rounded vowel || hg || high
 * || Open back rounded vowel || Ptt, Bck || pot, buck
 * || Close-mid front rounded vowel or Open-mid front rounded vowel || ver, ver || over
 * || Open-mid front rounded vowel || Ptt || pots
 * || Open back rounded vowel or Close-mid back rounded vowel || St || seed
 * || Open front unrounded vowel || Ktt || cat
 * }
 * Short vowels are slightly lengthened before nasals (m, n, ng) and liquids (l, r). The sequence /ar/ sounds like in Australian English; e.g. Karr 'cart' like Australian English "car".
 * || Open back rounded vowel or Close-mid back rounded vowel || St || seed
 * || Open front unrounded vowel || Ktt || cat
 * }
 * Short vowels are slightly lengthened before nasals (m, n, ng) and liquids (l, r). The sequence /ar/ sounds like in Australian English; e.g. Karr 'cart' like Australian English "car".
 * }
 * Short vowels are slightly lengthened before nasals (m, n, ng) and liquids (l, r). The sequence /ar/ sounds like in Australian English; e.g. Karr 'cart' like Australian English "car".

Languages in the lede
Mentioning only the Standard German name in the lede to the exclusion of at least Standard Dutch makes no sense. The language has an official status in the Netherlands, just like in Germany.

I don't understand the "Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Suaheli" part. Low German is a recognized minority language in Mexico, Bolivia, Paraguay and Brazil. It's safe to add at least Spanish and Portuguese (not counting other languages spoken in the first three countries, besides Spanish). Sol505000 (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi!
 * 1. I wouldn't mind if the pronunciation were moved into the note and the brackets in the lead were removed. But it was removed and not moved. However, i also don't have a problem with mentioning the common High German name (Plattdeutsch) which is also cognate to the native name (Plattdütsch etc.) and the source for an English name.
 * 2. Do you mean real Low German, or do you refer to de:Pomerano (there called a "Mischsprache", i.e. a mixed language) or Plautdietsch (in ISO 639-3 pdt and a different language than nds = Low Saxon)?
 * --Naramaru (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW: regardless of ISO-codes, Plautdietsch emerged from the historical Low German dialect continuum. The full dialect continuum has ceased to exist post-1945, but Plautdietsch is still quite intelligible to speakers of contemporary eastern Low German varieties. –Austronesier (talk) 15:48, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep the lede clean. @Naramaru (and your other accounts here: Ozarkha, Tilsia, Joltsbiped, Syletha and Gelidona; among others) There is no need, whatsoever, for turning it into a wiktionary page. Vlaemink (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

There are varieties missing
If you look at file:Map_of_the_Low_German_Dialects.svg, there are two varieties (14) Low Bergish, see Bergish dialects, (but see also Limburgish) and (15) Meuse-Rhenish, see Meuse-Rhenish, (but see also Brabantian) which do not appear in the list here. I don't know where they should go in the taxonomy, so I didn't add them myself, but they should be added by someone who knows what they are doing. Thank you!--91.64.210.178 (talk) 13:20, 18 February 2022 (UTC) --Thesmp (talk) 13:29, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No, they don't. Please read Low German (with my bold):

Old Saxon in Holstein
Why isn't western Holstein included in the map called Old Saxon speaking area? Also, wasn't Old Saxon spoken in all of Holstein before the arrival of the Slavic people? 62.113.194.157 (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * There wasn’t any language called Old Saxon before the arrival of Slavic people. Do you have a source for your other claim?—Ermenrich (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The wikipedia page dedicated to Old Saxon includes all of Holstein in the first map shown in its page. Even if this wasn't true, won't western Holstein (Holstein, Dithmarschen and Stormarn) still be part of the Old Saxon speaking area? Considering the limes saxoniae ran through the middle of Holstein? 62.113.194.159 (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"German Low German language" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_Low_German_language&redirect=no German Low German language] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 05:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)