Talk:Lower Shawneetown

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NRHP archeological district, possible merger
Hi, I just noticed a new link arriving from here to Lower Shawneetown Archeological District, an extremely short article that i created long ago, without much info. The exact location/area of the archeological district is not publicly available, but it is presumably in Lower Shawneetown. Hey, it seems to me that it would probably better for that article to be merged to a short section here, or to some location here. If someone would like to implement that, I say go ahead! I wouldn't mind being pinged or otherwise notified. Or discuss? --Doncram (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. I can do it, after I read the guidelines on WP:Merging. Cmacauley (talk) 00:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge accomplished. Feel free to correct any errors or omissions. Cmacauley (talk) 11:37, 10 May 2019 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, the Fort Ancient site and Lower Shawneetown should be two different articles, since they were inhabited at different times by different people. I found the combined article a bit confusing, so I think others might also be confused. Kevin1776 (talk) 19:35, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I have been thinking about this, and it seems appropriate. The Fort Ancient site information is now located under Bentley Site. Cmacauley (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Image misidentified


This image currently in the article is misidentified. It's actually, depicting a scene from 1764 in Pontiac's War. That's a British soldier in the hat, not French. Kevin1776 (talk) 00:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Lower Shawneetown's abandonment
Hale and Wheeler-Voegelin give differing explanations for the town's abandonment. Without seeing Wheeler-Voegelin's text, which I have no access to, I am assuming that she bases her theory entirely on Croghan's statement that "during the French war, they abandoned [the town] for fear of the Virginians, and removed to the plains on Scioto." I would be interested to know if she provides any reason why she thinks Hale was mistaken in his statement that the town was destroyed by floods.

In examining the two statements, I'd like to point out that the town was destroyed by flooding in 1753, so it seems likely that the river might flood again in 1758. On the other hand, a raid from Virginia seems less likely, given that the Virginians had not been raiding Native American communities in the Ohio Valley. The only significant raid on an Indian community during the previous years had been the Raid on Kittanning in 1756, which was executed by a Pennsylvania militia with great difficulty and only moderate success. A town the size of Lower Shawneetown (1200 to 1500 population, with perhaps 400 warriors) would have been a more ambitious target than Kittanning requiring a sizeable military expedition to travel several hundred miles. Croghan of course knew the Shawnees at Lower Shawneetown very well and his statement can't be refuted, but as he offers no other details, I believe that flooding seems to be a more probable explanation for the move. Cmacauley (talk) 18:31, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Oddly, Hale doesn't even think the town was abandoned in 1758. He actually wrote, "A few years later (1763 to 1765) a very extreme, if not unprecedented flood in the rivers swept off the greater part of the town, and it was never rebuilt at that place...." I'm not sure how our article came to say that Hale wrote it was abandoned in November 1758. If you ever get ahold of Wheeler-Voegelin's books, you'll find them a treasure trove of information. Her works are scholarly, citing probably every known mention of the town in primary sources. Hale's book, old-fashioned pre-professional history, is not suitable as a reference on this point.


 * The Virginians launched a big expedition against Lower Shawneetown in 1756, which may be what Croghan was referring to -- especially alarming because the Virginians had recruited 100 Cherokees in the effort. Led by Andrew Lewis, it's usually called the "Sandy Creek Expedition," and it turned out to be a false alarm for the Shawnees, because it turned back before reaching the Ohio. Kevin1776 (talk) 20:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. I can see that Hale was clearly mistaken, as other sources confirm that there was no town there in 1763 to 1765. I've made an edit to correspond with this. Cmacauley (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. I'm glad we got that sorted out. Kevin1776 (talk) 12:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)