Talk:Lu Sheng-yen/Archive 1

It would be nice if the two anonymous users who keep radically altering the Sheng-yen article (one including serious allegations of sexual misconduct, the other white-washing the whole thing) would at least attempt to discuss their positions here instead of continuing this pissing contest.--RicardoC 09:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I was surprised that somebody might have deleted the entire original article on Grand Master Lu Sheng Yen. This article is completely biased and certainly do not reveal the actual accuracy which public may need in Wikipedia site. please re-review the accuracy of this page and restore the original article (which may have been deleted).

Ok, Im getting alittle sick of this too. I am not a religious fanatic or cult follower. I am no man with blind faith, I have been following Sheng-Yen Lu for 10 years and have personally known him. I have also studied extensively many others schools of Buddhist thought and other religions as well. I am inviteing these "slanderers" to a public or private debate. I will come on top! I know the facts very well and I have all the pictures to back them up. This is rediculous. Can they not let us disciples who are good hearted people have alittle piece of mind. I want to finish this once and for all. Lu Sheng-Yen is a good man, with a good heart and he doesnt deserve this nonsence. Its pitiful how ugly some peoples hearts seem to be. Please debate with me! On email, public forum, private chat, msn, yahoo, aim ect. I want to get this over. This hurts me alot. lordindra3@yahoo.com PS i am a new user so please forgive me for mistakes

My concern is for proof to be put forth over any claims, positive or negative. If the anonymous user with the axe to grind wants to bring up allegations of sexual misconduct, then he damn better have evidence, or else he's damaging an innocent man's reputation. I wasn't happy when the article claimed Sheng-yen Lu is the reincarnation of a holy being, since that is not a verifiable claim, but that was child's play compared to accusing the man of rape. I'm a new user as well, so I'm wondering if perhaps it would be best to notify an administrator.--RicardoC 10:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

(--)Ricardo,your views in agreeing Sheng Yen Lu as a reincarnation of a Holy as real or not, u are entitled to have your views im not going to argue with this. What worry us the most is the accusations are all false. In regards to the sexual allegations, the case was thrown out of court without any legal basis to continue with the persecution.

Now there are group of people who are actively against our teacher because they claims what he propagates his false (and what these group of people say is they correct)-their weapon is to destroy our teacher reputation by all means, either by truthful or false information as long as it causes problems. All we wanted is to list on the wikipedia some information about our school, something about our teacher and what he teaches, if people are interested can read on and if not well dont read it, simple. if what these group of people are not vandals and dont know what is.

ps.an administrator already been notified about this page.

+++This is a free country. We can sue anyone for sexual abuse or anything, but we also must respect everyone's basic civil right. Everyone is innocent until proven quility. There is no solid evidence so that is why Seattle court dismissed the cases. If they dont agree with the court decision, they should bring the case to court again or escalate it to the supreme courty, but not abuse Wikipedia to spread about the one-sided story+++.

Wikipedia is not a message forum. It is not the responsibility of the person reporting (accurately) that there has been an accusation of a sex scandal to prove that the accusation has merit. The accusation is genuine. The accusation is relevant to this article. The accusation should, therefore, be noted in the article. Wikipedia articles are not advertising space for cultists. They are for facts. Not proselytizing. I have therefore re-written the article, starting from the 16:59, 14 August 2005 version, and have (among other things) added links to the sex scandal accusation.--68.251.43.185 11:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the accusations may be included, BUT the tone in which they are mentioned is very important. Saying "X is facing allegations of sexual misconduct by Y" is very different from saying "X reportedly assaulted Y". I've said it before: I'm not a Sheng-yen expert. I'm neither for nor against him. I fount the article while reading the list of self-proclaimed deities, and was appalled by the blatant partisanship of most edits done to the article. This is not a propaganda site, for either side of the debate. --RicardoC 19:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok I can see alittle bit of your point (refering to the person who re-wrote the article) but I do agree with Ricardo as well. Do you really think that a person who is obviously anti-Sheng-Yen Lu should have more right to make a bio over a disciple or even a nutreul person? Thats rediculous, if you think that you should be considered nutreul. So do you think if I visited HH Dalai Lama(with all due respect) and saw his office and decided to go and make website saying he sexually molested me and due you think that should be included in his bio? Thats about as credible is that SHC website is. As a matter of fact I could tell you lots about the accuser for I once knew her(SHC);)Her website has stories of what his bedroom and office looks like ect. Brother, I could tell you the same thing, its open to public. She was in love with Sheng-Yen Lu and wanted to marry him and his wife(he had before he was a monk) said she needed to stay away because she sensed trouble. She felt rejected and wanted to get revenge. She was 60(50-60s) years old, Master Lu has millions of female disciples, why do you think the only one he wanted would be a 60 year old disciple who is one nut short of a fruit cake. Just food for thought...Maha Rishi Mahesh Yogi (my uncle is a close personal disciple of) was accused by several sources of sexual misconduct, but look at the light in which his article on wikipedia is? It briefly mentions the controversy than says its groundless, how is that fair for Master Lu? What about Thich Nhat Hanh? He recently ran away after someone asked a question, does his bio say hes a bogus master? What about Sogyal Rinpoche? It is said that there were sexual misconduct at his retreat. Does he have a bio that says he is a liar or a fake master? Cummon have some integrity. This is obviously a vendetta against Master Lu, now cut the crap.

Missing part of the article
What I was trying to say (seems that nobody capture my message) is to restore the original article which seems to be more comprehensive and provide more detailed information. This article seems a little bit shorter than the previous one and miss some information about the controvery itself; such as "how to kill people" speech and the "hat controversy". I'm really hoping that none of this teaching follower (in fact, i'm one of the follower) is offended as I'm only looking for the truth here.

Some of the controversy are well explained and detailed here

I dont know enough about the "how to kill speech" to debate thoroughly about it but the "hat controversy" IS BOGUS!!! Listen, I have met Ganden Tri Rinpoche back when he took all the time to fly into the True Buddha Tantric quarter! Where is the source of Ganden Tri Rinpoche saying that he only gave a hat as a souvenier? Where is the source to that? Who said that, that is only word of mouth!? I, on the other hand can come with pictures of Ganden Tri Rinpoche giving the robe and hat to Sheng-Yen Lu as well as a photo of Sheng-Yen Lu wearing the robe! Jeez, where is this information coming from? Oh wow, *sarcasticlly* that website states alot of sources...Its garbage! There is no reliable info except peoples opinion and pictures of Sheng-Yen Lu with the Rinpoches. Seems like reliable facts to me(once again very sarcastic). you can email me lordindra3@yahoo.com if you have any questions. Im just looking out for the burdend disciples who are tired of being harrased. We just want to follow and love our Guru just like any Tantric Buddhist does.

(--)the curious writer (or the "FOLLOWER") seems to be ONLY interested in increasing the tensions. For some reason this "FOLLOWER" is very interested in the controversial issues, especially "how to kill people" speech and the "hat controversy" (fabrications), that is offensive to be listed in this page.On top of this the FOLLOWER for the sake of his guru is willing to very conveniantly list a website that claim us as a cult and our teacher as a fake,con artist.

Hmmm, the reason this "FOLLOWER" says these things is because hes not a follower but a wolf in sheeps clothing. If you really think of it, these people have much bitterness in their hearts. I just found out that "how to kill speech" is cut and edited. It was blown way out of proportion. That speech was done in a jokeing matter with Sheng-yen Lu saying he does not condone or use the method himself. One would have to have the Dharma power and empowerment to use it in the first place and that is unavailable in our school. These type of methods were used by Lord Padmasambhava, Shantideva, Marpa to Milarepa ect. Its called "to kill and deliver" method but is not needed in these present times. Guru's vows are to never hold back any dharma and that dharma could not even be used by any ordinary person anyway. The person who rewrote the biography (I re-wrote it again) is a coward who refuses to have a mature debate with me or other disciples. He edited the page again without permission or notice after all the talk we have had on the discussion. You are a coward (refering to the person who re-wrote the slanderous page)! You are only hurting the dharma. Even if you were shown proof that all the things that disciples claim are true then you still would deny the truth! You are a true demon in that case! Are you calling HH Kalu rinpoche a liar!? Are you calling HE Ganden Tri Rinphoche a liar!? You have some nerve! Debate with me! You dont have the guts! Pathetic....Accusing a man of rape with no evidence!? How dare you!? This starting to test my dharma strength...I hope the best with this. May my Dharma brother who is confused have the strength to come face to face with the truth. I know it seems hard to swallow but accept it or ignore it but dont hurt your fellow cultivators. Question yourself...Do you think the Buddha would want this? Do you think Siddhartha Gautama would do the same thing even if he thought there was cause for concern in the dharma community? Do you think he would mindlessly go out and vandalize? Come on please talk with me man to man. If you need proof of what im talking about please visit the history page and visit the last edit before the most recent one.

(--)to the "Follower"
we will be happy to discuss your comments(which i may say accusations) in this page, so u can list them and please dont forget to back them up with credible evidence, otherwise we cant verify and consider your comments simply as your personal issues or vendetta against an individual,based on your baseless views or rumors. Thus this page is not a place for you. I'm offering you a chance to discuss this matter in a logical manner like do adults, what do you say ?

As long as anyone intending to change the contents of this page for no other reason than to insult and slander ,thats ok because there will plenty of people keeping an eye on this page EVERYDAY, and for your sake (wannabe be "follower")i'll make this task as my daily habbit.

someone or lets say SHC wannabe (Follower)posted a message in Chinese, and oooops i've wiped it out! Have some comon sense this is a ENGLISH section, If you going to reply do it in English Mr. "Follower", (and just to add SHC spokeperson).

Ok you coward, come out of hiding! We know its Tktroung! Come out of hiding, you are the biggest coward. You refuse to face any student directly but only want to vandalize. You are more like a disgruntled child. You waste your efforts entirely on slandering and hurting what you THINK is false dharma instead of doing good things like helping people or being compassionate towards your brothers. Toi Loi, how sinful. Its like terrorist muslims, you think that by killing innocent children and blowing your self up in a public market that you will go to your paradise with 70 virgins or whatever. But yet it is nothing but blind ingnorance and foolishness. You are a coward and are the biggest fool of all. I dont even think your teacher Hsuan Hua would agree. Oh wait he would, because during the 1980s Hsuan Hua actually told US customs that Sheng yen Lu was a drug trafficer and that HSing Yun was a false monk so they would not be allowed into the country. Hmm, that sounds like wisdom to me(very sarcastic). Spreading lies to hurt someone and calling people idiots in public during press confrences sounds like supreme wisdom to me(sarcastic again). But we dont mention that rubbish in our Master's Bio now do we? This is rediculous you fool! Face us you coward, have a debate. Im getting so sick of this vandalizm. But your efforts to hurt a mans reputation will not beat our efforts to reveal the truth. Coward! Lucas King lordindra3@yahoo.com. Im not affraid to meet you at all. I will reveal my identity. Coward!

-

love your pages especially :

+ Hsuan Hua

+ HSing Yun

since you like to cut and paste perhaps i should give u a helping hand. what do u say Tkroung, smile    :) because if u insist it will be headache for you -DAILY, if u know what i mean  :(

-

Namo Buddhaya

What I learn in Buddhism is, this is a believe with reason. So hopefully we can stick with open minded view and compassion heart.

As Master Lu Sheng Yen name rise atleast 20 years ago, I have been monitoring the activity, studying all His teaching (as what I do to others Buddhism Master). Base on Buddhism knowledge I have before studying His teaching. I have my own conclusion that His Buddhism teaching have strong influence with Chinese mythology as people know as Daoism.

For some other Main Stream Buddhism, this mix are forbidden because Buddhism and Taoism are stay at separate way for many century and never been harmonized each other except at era Zen Master Zhaozhou Congshen (This master harmonized Confucianism, Buddhism & Daoism).

First Controvercy. As ex Daoist Master Lu Sheng Yen using Daoism astral description (which are His own spiritual experience) to teach about Buddhism plane of existence and the existence of Daoism deity that bring first controvercy. As far as I learn in Buddhism, there so many kind of deity and so many in number as well. So that very possible of Daoism deity existence as other believe deity as well. As long as as remining Buddhism are not deity worshipper, Master Lu Sheng Yen explanation are acceptable. In fact Realm of existence explained by Him are meet with Buddhit Cannon "Tripitaka" explanation about Pattica Samupada.

Second Controvercy. Master Lu Sheng Yen addressed by His Disciples world wide as Living Buddha.

1st reason. The believe that Master Lu Sheng Yen is a manifest of Lotuschild "Padmakumara" Boddhisatva. As a reborn Buddhist Master from previous life he is addresed as Living Buddha. 2nd reason. As a founder of newage linage in Buddhism, Master Lu Sheng Yen start His Spiritualism debute as sudying Chinese Geomancy, Daoism than at last Buddhism as His final Destination. At each debute He has Mastered. Along His career as spiritualist He give spiritual consultation as well spiritual practice. All what He have done that western people addresed as "Miraculous Action" some how most of it do work. Base on this as Chinese people tendency, Lu Sheng Yen surounded by miracle seeker(fortune seeker) that lately become His first follower. As He converted to Buddhism also do the seeker. With all his mastery at everything relatively in short time He learn and ability to help people, He is addressed as Living Buddha. 3nd reason. (My own conclution) When I read his book and story, term "Living Buddha" first time addressed by devoted disciples. When the believe grow so lately at some occation Master Lu Sheng Yen also using "living Buddha" to address Him self.

This "Living Buddha" Issue became hot controvercy, since Main Stream Buddhism carry a concept of humble "Ones not suppose addresing him self as Buddha"

My Opinion. At first, I also feel not right. After while as a Buddhist I shall open my mind and I have some conclution. If no body should addressed them self as Buddha, how Buddhism Exist since Siddharta Gautama (Founder of Buddhism) also can not addresed him self as Buddha. Siddharta Gautama did addrress Him self as Buddha, not only Buddha but also Sammasambudha (Rarest Buddha that only born once in many aeon). As Buddha is the highest spiritual archivement no body be able to see/find without that Buddha introduce Him self. For people who archive enlightment In troducing self as Buddha in order to lead other away from suffering is unavoidable. It's all up to follower to observe either it's true or not, critisize shall not be made before very deep observation.

3rd Controvercy. As written in seattle post. Master Lu Sheng Yen, accused by SHC in sexual harrasment.

I don't know many about this issue, some disciples who know much already tell me other version. I check at King County Court Report, this case already closed due to lack of reason, evidence and burden of prove after couple year investigation.

I also check at the SHC website, general conclution at the end I would like to agree if this is either only sentiment or defamation.

General speaking, Honestly I would rather Pro Master Lu Sheng Yen since I am open and observe to all kind of teaching. I have no problem to address Master Lu Sheng Yen as Living Buddha / Rimpoche as it's need in Vajrayana tradition. I also learn Kadampa Vajrayana under Dagpo Lama Rimpoche and I still remember His quote that "It's very important for Vajrayana Disciple to see their Lama as Living Buddha because with this connection empowerment can be transfer". Even I am hesitate to introduce Master Lu Sheng Yen as Living Buddha to others but I would like to welcome everybody who interest in Buddhism to Observe Lu Sheng Yen Teaching & Biography.

Sartono_njoo@yahoo.com

The Lies of the guy with the IP 70.107.157.163 LIE #1 Lu Sheng-yen never had any rules or teachings within the True Buddha School---just only to follow the example of the Buddha, the Bodhisattvas, and Lu Sheng-yen himself by recognizing him as a Living Buddha.


 * This is completely bogus. Our Guru has laid out the rules for all his students. As with all Buddhists, we are to follow the 5 precepts. In addition, since True Buddha School teaches Vajrayana, we also are to follow the Fourteen Root (Tantric) Vows. He teaches us to try to be compassionate to all sentient beings, and to realized our true Buddha-nature. All True Buddha School students are expected to start with the Vajrasattva yoga, and after that, the Guru yoga, and then the Personal Deity yoga. and so on.

LIE #2 Master Lu Sheng-yen made up stories about Ganden Tri Rinpoche giving him the hat as only "a souvenir" and giving him a robe.


 * I have already covered this issue in a previous comment on this page. I was there to witness what happened. I did see HH Ganden Tri Rinpoche at the True Buddha temple (Seattle) as well as his associates and his associates actually took an empowerment that Lu Sheng Yen was giving. During the Dharma talk HH GTR said Lu Sheng Yen is a master of supreme wisdom. So why would an extremely respected master like HH GTR let his associates take empowerment, sit on a throne equal(not above) to Grand Master Lu Sheng Yen and say that he is a master of supreme wisdom, if he had doubts about Lu Sheng Yen? I can also come up with a picture of GM's photo being honored at a Tibetan temple in India! How can a fake Guru pull all of this off?

LIE #3 Lu Sheng-yen, while starting the True Buddha School, also wrote the "True Buddha Sutra", a sutra that he claims that it has been accepted to be included in the Tripitaka.


 * Where did this claim come from? Certainly not my Guru, who has NEVER claimed that the True Buddha Sutra "has been accepted to be included in the Tripitaka." Who today would have the authortiy to say one sutra or another could be included in the Tripitaka anyways? Just another lie by 70.107.157.163

LIE #4 There, he gave a controversial lecture on how to use a spell to kill someone. Master Lu believed that if there was no other way that could assist a hopeless or stubborn person, then the only way is kill him or her


 * More BS. He does not use that method, and we are not to use such a method. He mentioned it because he has vowed to reveal Tantric secrets. Just because he brought it up, doesn't mean he wanted anyone to practice it. Padmasambhava actually used a similar method, but is 70.107.157.163 calling him controversial?

LIE #5 The ridiculous "sex scandal"


 * This accuser is an old Malaysian woman who is either in her 50s or 60s, and she is out of shape, not exactly alluring qualities. She wanted attention from him, often dancing and trying to look pretty in front of him to try to get his attention, but of course he ignored her. Her husband didn't like the fact that she spends so much time at the temple. She filed this lawsuit that was dismissed by the local authorities because they didn't believe her story. In America, we are innocent until proven guilty. So my guru is innocent, both in reality and in the eys of the law.

Now her bogus website shows pictures from the temple, and is trying to mislead people into thinking that she had some sort of private access. But what the website doesn't say is that those pictures are of places that are publicly accessible (but people who have never been there would not know that), so ANYONE could take such pictures and then go fabricate some story. She has no evidence of what she accuses, just pictures of places open to the public.

70.107.157.163 (or Tktruong2) perpetuates this "sex scandal" lie by continually re-posting it, so he assists the lie.

The Japanese Zen master Hakuin was falsely accused of fathering a neighbor's baby: http://www.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/isthatso.html

Cincamanavika falsely accused Sakyamuni Buddha of sleeping with her and getting her pregnant: http://tipitaka.net/pali/dhp/verseload.php?verse=176

I suggest that the people spreading these lies (which I've outlined) seriously consider the following from the Dhammapada: "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 176: For one who transgresses the Truth, and is given to lying, and who is unconcerned with the life hereafter, there is no evil that he dare not do."

LIE #6 This may not apply to 70.107.157.163, but it does to one of his buddies: the person has claimed to be a follower of Lu Sheng-Yen earlier in this discussion page.

If he really is a follwer of Lu Sheng-Yen, he would be breaking the Root Tantric Vows by slandering his Guru, trying to spotlight websites that falsely accuse him of sexual allegations and calling True Buddha School a cult. On the True Buddha School refuge certificate, it states that the student swears to uphold the following as long as he/she lives: Respect the Buddhist lineage that he/she is joining, respect the Guru, take the dharma seriously, practice diligently.

This person is not respecting his guru or lineage if he is a True Buddha School student.

He don't seem to have a problem with any breaking any of these vows, so he is obviously not a disciple of Master Lu Sheng-Yen, and therefore this is yet another false claim.

So now I've shown that 70.107.157.163 and his helpers are very good at spreading lies. Now take a look at these masterpieces of Mr. 70.107.157.163:

"It has been said that Lu Sheng-yen increases his popularity by making use the popularity of great Tibetan masters."

"It was also said that he made up stories that Ganden Tri Rinpoche also gave him one of his personal robes."


 * Spreading rumors like a supermarket tabloid. In the Middle East, there are all sorts of rumors of Jews doing this and that, that they were behind the September 11th attacks on the US. Do you believe that rumor?

Back in the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, USA, Richard Jewel was accused of being the prime suspect in the Olympic Park bombing. Look how that went: his name was dragged through the mud in the media for many weeks or months, and it turned out he was completely innocent.

70.107.157.163, it is obvious that your are ethnic Chinese and consider yourself to be a Buddhist. I want you to think about a few things. In the Ten Evils (十惡), there are four evils of the mouth, three of which are lying (妄言), slanderous or alienating language (兩舌), and bawdy or lewd language (綺語). You have committed both lying and slanderous language in written form here, so that can't be good for you karma-wise. Concerning that fake sex scandal, she made false and lewd accusations and described it (綺語). Since you keep re-posting this accusation, I think you are partially guilty of that too.

I suggest that you stop committing these three evils, "For one who transgresses the Truth, and is given to lying, and who is unconcerned with the life hereafter, there is no evil that he dare not do."

dear all. Dharma bro and dharma sis ....

why we argue for ..... as we learn dharma to peace our self and down our ego ......

if some one talk bad bout our guru or our self ... why we argue back as they do creat the bad karma and why we continue it for them .... we should pity then and care for them that, they are still in suffer..... we should pity them not to argue back as we argue them back that mean we lost our control of ego and patient.......... we pratice dharma to control our mind, body and speech..... as we pratice fire puja and burn in fire to clear our obctacle........... no one is perfect as their got 5 million follower or TBS. the 5 million of the Follower got educated with proffesor, doctor, degree, diploma, certificate, high school, and got brain to think ...... are they stupid ???????? if TBS is bad how come it so successfull and got 5 million follower .......... let think .......

as master lu said ....... let it be ..... let it go .......

from the history ..... the holy buddha shakyamuni die also because of his follower ......... as long as the wheel of the buddhism is turning ...... why not .......

learning dharma is to help our self and people ....... not because of fame, power and money ............  what we need is let go this samsara world ..........

just let it go .......... every things is empty at the end ...........

every thing will be burn in the fire .......... as long as we practice, practice and practice ................... be wisdom and compassion ........

om black pearl .........