Talk:Lucious Lyon

Parameters and storyline section
Concerning the infobox, we should add the gender (though obvious) and nationality info, or any other such info to the box. Other TV characters, such as Tony Soprano, and Jimmy McNulty have info about gender and alias. Any more info we can put in the box won't hurt. Also, the Season 1 headline was only added at this point since Season 2 has been confirmed. It's only to discern the storyline info season by season. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 07:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I usually try to avoid doing gender unless it isn't obvious, however in this case, I believe we can make an exception since Lucious as a character is so focused on the idea of what being a man is that he discounts Jamal as a man. As for nationality, I don't think it's needed because it isn't crucial to understanding the character of Lucious. As for the storyline section, I don't think the "season" heading is needed because seasons can be very long and a lot can happen in them. I usually try to separate seasons into paragraphs highlighting the most important events within each character's arc for that season. For example, I want to eventually condense the storyline section because it's too wordy. All that is needed is bare bones of the plot.--Nk3play2 my buzz 08:08, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Nationality can definitely be discarded although gender is important, especially to a character like Lucious. But as you have said, he does spell it out repeatedly to Jamal so we can omit it. However, I still disagree about the Season headings, and think it best to keep Season headings. I think it would fit more organized that way, categorizing his role in the plot into seasons. When I started the page, I tried to take some influence to structure from The Wire characters such as Jimmy McNulty. I understand that you aren't going for that type of set up. The story line section should be condensed somewhat, but then again so should the other sections eventually as well, particularly some quotes. I will trim down the story line a little, but I won't have it changed too much, although I may eventually change up the Season heading and divide it into different sections in the way that Vic Mackey from The Shield is set up (early life, morality, etc.). I understand that we don't want the page to end up like a comic character page, where the character's role in the plot is too detailed and only useful to hard-core fans. At the same time, we don't want to fall into that trap with excessive information in the other sections either. We have a good page here, largely thanks to your efforts-and once the article is reviewed, then we can work on trimming it down a little bit. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 08:39, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I only advise against the season headings because of the potential longevity of the characters. There will be a continuous arc for each character. For example, Meredith Grey is the central character on Grey's Anatomy and her character has been featured heavily in all eleven seasons. But, the storyline section consists of series of paragraphs just discussing her history in chronological order, while not mentioning seasons or episodes. I really like the way it's done for Abby Cunningham from Knots Landing. The section provides detail on the most important plots for the character over her nine years on the series. The storyline section just seems a lot less complicated and easier to follow without the season headings; it's basically told like a life story for the character, as if they're a real person, even though they're fictional. The fact that the character is fictional can be addressed in the other sections of the article, but adding things like in "In season 1" or "In the pilot" I think messes with continuity of the plot. The season headings make articles seem very fan magazine-like which has always kind of bothered me.--Nk3play2 my buzz 16:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

It seems that you take more influence from the soap characters' page-I really hate to admit it, but I also like certain soaps like Young and the Restless. I mainly became hooked due to the influence of some friends. However, I still opt for more influence from drama or crime drama pages, like Walter White. I felt that it should be divided into seasons because they are fictional characters and should not be set up like a real person's page. I also like Tony Soprano's page, and find that to be the archetype for the kind of character that Lucious is. So here's what I'm willing to do: I'll get rid of the season headings, but I'll change the set up with sections like "Early Life", "Personality", "Influences", "Relationships" (which I think should be under storyline) etc., and the main section for this part of the page will be "Fictional Character Biography." We need to come to some sort of compromise regarding the page set up, so that we don't run into problems later. We can do a unique style where the page is part soap influenced and part drama influenced, a cross between something you want, like Abby Cunningham's style, and something I want, like Tony Soprano. That way both of us have what we want here. Also, the ALS section and homophobia section is better if moved under the Fictional Character biography section. That falls under the character's biography, lifestyle, and life more so than the casting and creation. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 18:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "Personality" and "Characterization" are almost interchangeable, that's why I put homophobia under the characterization section along with the ALS. Also, Racism isn't central to the character nor has it been developed enough to have it's own section but it is discussed as being a part of his personality/characterization. Relationships are also a part of a character's development. And the headings in my opinion for the storyline section being changed makes the article feel to crowded already. I find that in storyline sections, the fewer words for headings, the better. Keep in mind, the storyline section needed to be changed, I just wanted to avoid headings.--Nk3play2 my buzz 21:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And for the information I tend to include in any character article, I try to stick to things with the actor that plays the role OR the producers/writers discussing that character specifically so we can get the point of view of the character. Quotes from Jussie Smollett would better serve the character of Jamal, when the time comes that an article is developed for the character. Also Lucious's homophobia is separate from his relationship with Jamal.--Nk3play2 my buzz 21:14, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I want to change it up a bit. I understand that you want the article to match with what you have for your drafts for Cookie, Jamal, and the other characters. However, when I created the page I had in mind a certain set up, which I am not trying to detract from what you had in your draft. I just want to adjust the section I've been working on to make it more like what I've had in mind. I don't see any problems with headings under the fictional biography or storyline section, and I honestly don't feel it needs to be changed much. This is a matter of opinion concerning page set up, I prefer it one way, you prefer it another, and we both think our way is right. You prefer "characterization", I prefer "personality". I prefer "personality" under the "Fictional Character Biography" section. You can keep the homophobia and als section under characterization, but I'm reverting everything else back. We can agree to disagree and keep the sections we are working on the way they are. Since we have different ideas in mind about how the page should look, we need to work on our individual sections and put the page together to represent what we both want. It may be difficult, but it's possible and the best solution. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I also promise you that these headings under the fictional character biography section will not get too numerous. We only have two right now, which isn't bad. I want to at least separate the character's early life from his adulthood. You have a point that Lucious' homophobia is separate from his relationship with Jamal, so I'm moving it to the Realtionships section. It fits here, and I'm putting in quotes from the actors to strengthen it. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 22:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * But you at one point you had "Storylines" and I thought you only changed that because of me. My opinion is that your headings looks too wordy and almost like a fan wiki rather than for an encyclopedia. I don't think "my way" is right, I'm going based on what I see happening with a lot of character pages that get a lot of attention and are also considered "good articles." I actually have experience with longtime editors who told me exactly what I'm telling you. Also, each of us doing "our own thing" won't sit well with other editors when these pages do start getting a lot more attention which I suspect they will. Articles should function as a unit, and be uniform for the entire show. Editors won't like one article going one way, and another going in a completely different direction. To be honest, I actually started to feel comfortable with the idea of using season headings in storyline sections when I started looking at the article for some of the Glee characters. Not only are both Glee and Empire both FOX shows, but they also have music as a foundation. For example, the "Storyline" sections Rachel Berry, Finn Hudson, Santana Lopez and Blaine Anderson.--Nk3play2 my buzz 22:50, 9 March 2015 (UTC)]

I did have storylines and I initially only changed that because of your opinion. I modeled the article initially after Jimmy McNulty. Then, after reading your opinion on storyline for Lucious and how it might get crowded, I decided to change it up to model it more like Tony Soprano. But, since you do have more experience than me in Wikipedia (I have been here less than a year and I don't edit much. The main writing experience I have is writing short stories, working on a novel, and journalism-so this is a whole different ball game for me). I'll listen to your advice for the sake of the betterment of the article. If you think the page stands better without the headings, I'll remove them. When I said do our own thing, perhaps that didn't come out right. I didn't mean to imply that we each make our own sections so different from one another to make a mess of a page. I just thought if I use my style for my section and you use yours for your section, then we can have a unique and better page where we both were satisfied with what we wanted. However, this is bigger than what we both individually want, as you have said, so for the sake of the page being as good as it gets, I'll trim some things down a bit and change the storyline back. I feel the Relationships section is good as is though. If there are any problems tell me. I don't want us to get off on the wrong foot, I appreciate your efforts to the page and I hope that when the other pages are created we can work on them together as well too. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 23:06, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Relationships

 * For the relationships section, obviously the article is about Lucious, but if it's concerning his relationships with Jamal and Cookie, I don't understand why we can't use what they say or their quotes if it helps to better understand Lucious. Like the Smollet quote-even though Smollet doesn't portray Lucious, that section is about his relationship with Jamal, so I don't see why we can't use that quote. So we can't use a Terrence Howard quote concerning his character's interaction with Cookie on Cookie's page under her Relationships section if it gives the reader insight into his character's relationship with Cookie and Cookie's own personality? If we can better understand something about the character from a quote from someone other than the actor portrayng him or the writers/creators-such as Lucious' hypocrisy, then why leave it out?Kinfoll1993 (talk) 23:33, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand Smollett was commenting on Jamal and Lucious's relationship. But my belief is that actors interpret things differently and therefor so do characters. Smollett commenting on the relationship with Lucious would be different from what Howard thinks about Lucious' relationship with Jamal. Smollett's quotes and interpretations of Lucious would work much better in an article about Jamal so it can be told from Jamal's point of view. I always feels it's best to get quotes directly from the actor playing the part, or the writers writing the part to get a clear understanding of WHAT and WHO the character is and how they function in direct relation to other characters. Smollett's comments may be how he, as the actor feels Jamal interprets Lucious's actions, if that makes sense? Basically Smollett can only speak from Jamal's point of view, while Howard can only speak from Lucious' point of view, and Henson can only speak from Cookie's point of view. BUT, the trump card is that the writers can speak from any point of view because they're writing it. Also, if you want to start a new topic of discussion, click the "New Section" button and Wikipedia will start the new topic for you, all you have to do is provide a name for that topic/section. And when responding to someone, use ":" or however many is needed to show that you are replying. See how I did it? If you were to respond to this, you'd edit the section "Relationships", and put "::" before typing your response.--Nk3play2 my buzz 23:49, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thanks for the help. So I'll transfer information I provided for Smollet and Henson on this page to the Jamal and Cookie page once it is created, since that would better suit them.Kinfoll1993 (talk) 00:04, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Lola as Lucious' Daughter, Olivia as Lucious' lover

 * We don't really know for sure if Lola is Lucious' daughter, or if Olivia was really his lover. Although he's a notorious womanizer we can only speculate at this point whether or not Lucious was telling the truth. Perhaps Lucious was simply lying to save Jamal. However, he may have just done it because he'd rather die a quick death than slowly from his ALS (which, if true, shows us just another of good guy Lucious' more noble and unselfish actions). The cat's still in the bag as far as the audience knows: Lola might not really be his daughter, as Olivia neither confirmed nor denied it. As you know, Lucious is an accomplished liar. In fact, besides being a rapper and CEO he has a 24/7 job as a liar. It seems with the episode title and according to some reviews, that it could be true, but who knows. Hopefully this will be revealed sooner rather than later. Kinfoll1993 (talk) 04:01, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Speculation or not, that's what the episode revealed. Unless the next episode gives us reason to believe Lucious lied about being Lola's father, Lucious being Lola's father is a fact. We shouldn't change things just based on our speculation.--Nk3play2 my buzz 21:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Empire page set-up

 * Nk3play2 and I have been working hard together on this page. However, we have multiple disagreements over the set up of the page, but I hope we can resolve this disagreement amicably with the help of a third party and continue to work in regards to further improvement of the page. If a third party could resolve this (or multiple users), please do so. See below.

Casting and Creation
I believe that Casting and Creation is separate from Development and should be in its own section. Many pages have this set up where Casting and Creation is its own section, while others have it under Development. Creation is the origins and inspirations for the character; it is separate from how a character grows, changes, and matures. Development is character arc. Character creation and casting is not the character's development, it is the background for how the character came to be. Once the character is created, development starts from there. For example, Lucious was created with inspiration from Jay-Z. This is his origins. However, if Lucious begins to undergo a rapid change (say, in Season 2) where his character arc has him acting like Suge Knight---then that is development. Just as the Jamal character takes inspiration from Lee Daniels' own experience---this is his origins. But Jamal is developed into "a Michael Corleone character" because this is how he changes from Mr. Nice Guy to a Gangster who threatens to kill Billy Berettti by hanging him over a balcony. I also believe that Casting can't be placed under Development because this does not involve character change (unless a different actor begins portraying the character), it's really about who was chosen to play the character and the process through which the actor is chosen. Casting is before the process of development and before the actor is able to portray the character, it is a selection period based on careful and thoughtful analysis.

Headings under Relationships section
The Headings under the Relationships section make them better organized so that the reader will get a sense of who is being talked about. This was done simply for better organization. At the content box at the top of the page, it would be much easier for readers if they could click on which relationship they wanted to see rather than having to click on relationships and not know which one is being discussed. If you look at Nk3play2's edits to the Jamal page, then you can see that much of the relationship section puts several different relationships into one paragraph. Jamal's relationship with Lucious, Cookie, Hakeem, and Jamal are all placed together in one paragraph (why?) and Michael, Olivia, and Lola are placed in another. These need to be separated so the reader can understand which relationship is being discussed. I prefer headings, but at the very least separate paragraphs.

Alias
Alias is not the same as birth name. Dwight Walker is not Lucious' alias. I don't understand why it's put under alias, because alias is not Lucious' birth name. I didn't initially put (born Dwight Walker) at the top of the page, but I do believe that this should stay as well. If the character is born with another name, it should be placed after his alias, which is Lucious Lyon. There's really no argument here, by definition alias is not a birth name. We can change full name to real name (if you still have a problem with listing Dwight Walker as his full name). It doesn't matter much to me either way, but Dwight Walker can't go under alias because it's simply incorrect.

Characterization and Portrayal
I also don't think "Characterization and Portrayal" is needed; it should either be "Characterization" or "Portrayal", but not both. I'm not saying that they are exactly the same, but they're far too similar to mention both together. Portrayal is the top synonym for Characterization; in some definitions Characterization is portrayal or means the same thing.

Character status
On the Jamal and Hakeem article, why shouldn't we include Bunkie's status as alive or deceased? If you apply the logic that Bunkie should not be listed as deceased, then apply that to other characters too (i.e. that for the Lucious page, Anika should not be listed as "ex-fiance" because this would be an unnecessary detail in the same way). I think it needs consistency whatever way we do it.

Thanks, Kinfoll1993 (talk) 18:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC).

--Nk3play2 my buzz 04:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * You reverted the changes I made because you disagreed with them but you also made the changes to the original format without taking my opinion into account. Now because I disagree, you want to debate it. I was just reverting everything back to the way it what originally.
 * But YES, "creation" is the character's origins but is one's origin story not a part of one's development? For example, look at the article about Rachel Berry from Glee. I'd prefer the the Casting and creation be kept under the development heading because I feel it factors into the character's development. It may be a different part of the development, but it is still a part of the development.
 * When it comes the relationships, subheadings make the page look way too cluttered and amateur in my opinion. There are so many relationships, but we don't need to have a subheading for each specific relationship because then it just looks ridiculous, especially when the. It makes it look like a fan wiki which this isn't. And there is a fan wiki out there for this show where they do having subheadings for relationships. For example, look at the Grey's Anatomy character April Kepner. She has had multiple relationships, but it isn't separated into a bunch of different headings, it is instead separated by paragraphs which is what I did with the relationships sections. Or for example the character of Elena Gilbert from The Vampire Diaries; she has had two major relationships but they're not separated by the names of those people. There is ONE heading, "Romances." Or Victor Newman from The Young and the Restless, who has had several long lasting relationships; but each relationship is only separated by a paragraph. Now, the Lulu Spencer from General Hospital article is a project I tackled LONG ago but I am currently in the process overhauling the development because the table of contents specifically is too detailed. The character has had quite a few significant romances, but my mistake was separating them into each section. Erica Kane from All My Children is a woman who has been married more times then I can count, but her most significant relationships are discussed in a section with ONE heading and just separated into paragraphs. For the character of Jamal, who has relationships with everyone that are very different, I'd prefer the parents in one paragraph, the siblings in another, and love interests in another but Jamal's relationship with Lola depends on his relationship with Olivia which is why I kept those two in the same paragraph.
 * A person's birth name isn't their full name. That was the reason I removed it from the "full name" parameter. Changing full name won't happen, but we can ask for a "real name" or "birth name" parameter to be added to the template. The character's CURRENT FULL NAME IS Lucious Lyon because he changed it to that. Just like an alias is different a birth name, a full name is different from a birth name ESPECIALLY if the character has changed their name. For example, Cookie's current full name is Laritha Lyon. But her birth name is Laritha Hardaway. Back to the character of Victor Newman as an example..... He was born Christian Miller. But he changed his name as an adult to Victor Christian Newman. His current full name would be Victor Christian Newman, NOT Christian Miller.
 * Characterization and portrayal of a character are very different things to me and I think both should be included. Characterization in my opinion are the basic characteristics of a character. Lucious is for example "unapologetic" and "homophobic." Portrayal is the process of how the actor plays the character or how they approach playing the character. Howard explained that he started playing Lucious with his "head down" or being "softhearted" and Daniels had to stop him and tell HOW Lucious feels like he "owns the world." He then goes on to say that his first few episodes are his impression of what he as the actor thinks Daniels wants. Those are different from the basic characteristics of the character. Howard said he is playing Lucious like someone who is striving to be Michael Corleone, but he always ends up being Sonny, but that doesn't mean Lucious has all of the same personality traits as Michael or Sonny Corleone. I feel there is distinct difference between the two, but they can be paired together very easily which is named the section "Characterization and portrayal."
 * This was actually a debate for soap characters specifically a few years ago, that I watched unfold. Whether the character is living or dead can be discussed within the article IF it needs to be; in Bunkie's, his death is a part of the story. Whether Bunkie is living or dead should not matter within Cookie's Infobox because it's not about Bunkie, but it's about Cookie; all we need to know from the infobox is that Cookie and Bunkie is that they are cousins; whether they are living or deceased does not affect that connection. The fact that Bunkie is dead is what the actual storyline section is for. Anika being Lucious's ex-fiance is the equivalent of Cookie and Bunkie being cousins; it's a detail describing the type of relationship they have. But if Anika died, that would not change the fact that she is Lucious' ex-fiance -- at the moment.


 * Ok, first thing's first. "You...made the changes to the original format without taking my opinion into account." No, I invited you to this talk page to discuss (as I have done constantly before), so I did take your opinion into account. But you certainly never reverted my changes without taking my opinion into account. And you certainly didn't change the original format that I had (you know, the original original format). Wait-that's right, you did. Perhaps it slipped your mind (it happens to all of us, I understand) when we started this page that you deleted my "infobox" section and "influence" section without asking me (but let's also just disregard the fact that you asked me if you could contribute and I told you the sections I already had, the problem not being that you deleted them but that you deleted them without asking or trying to discuss with me first). All the while you accuse me of not taking your opinion into account? No, my dear friend. I came here because you aren't taking my opinion into account. Your statements were extremely out of line, accusatory, and very disrespectful. When I reverted these recent edits, you decided instead of compromising (which is what we're supposed to do on Wikipedia) that you would revert the edits back. Instead of us talking it through, you decided that your way was right. I came here because you are the one who keeps making these edits to make the page how you want without caring to compromise with me. I have repeatedly tried to come to an agreement. You are the one who doesn't want to find a middle ground. You've been on Wikipedia a while, certainly long enough to know about third party resolution, Dispute Resolution, and Bold Revert Discuss, yet you never wanted to resolve the issue through any of these options/methods nor did you bring these up at anytime. Even if you think I'm completely wrong or whatever you think of my edits (I don't care, the point is that regardless we put that aside to work together) you should at least attempt to meet me half-way, or have other editors here to hear both of our opinions. If they agree with you, so be it. However, you're calling me out for something that you've been doing yourself. Instead of edit warring, I decided to come here to get a third party to hopefully fix the issue, but you even take issue with that. When someone reverts edits, why would you undo them and not want to discuss how we could come to a resolution? Yes, I did take your opinion into account, and it's wrong of you to throw shade my way and accuse me of not considering your opinion. I have no problem telling you that. Disagreement isn't bad, but you're making it out to be far worse than needed.


 * Ok, now to the points. Again.

1. You bring up the Victor Newman page. In case you missed the big section at the top (directly underneath the content box), it actually has Casting and Creation as its own section before the Development section, and it has his birth name in parentheses right after his new (presumably legal) name. Oops.

2. I never said that a person's birth name is their full name. Why do you keep bringing this up? I put full name because birth name would not work in the parameters for the infobox. That's the only reason. We completely agree on this point, and always have, and always will. So the point I'm arguing for is that Lucious Lyon is his alias (which isn't an argument, because, you know-it is his alias), but I don't want to put it under alias. Alias isn't needed at all. We just need to put "birth name=Dwight Walker" in the infobox and we're solid like a rock. Mark Twain is Samuel Langhorne Clemens' alias. Clemens is his real name, Twain is the name everyone knows him by. Lucious Lyon is a facade that Dwight Walker created so that he could survive in the harsh world he grew up in.

3. You shouldn't put unrelated paragraphs together. Jamal's relationship with Olivia is not related to Jamal's relationship with Lola, despite the two being mother and daughter. Paragraphs in general should only contain similar or the same information. When the information changes to a new topic, then that's a new paragraph. Whether you want headings or not, they should be separated. And only Jamal's most significant relationships should be mentioned, which would be around four or five. It would not look like a fan page, it would be fine.

4.Yes, the Empire fan page has subheadings for Relationships. So do other pages on Wikipedia like Vic Mackey, which isn't the problem with that article. The problem with that article is that it needs more citations.

5. Characterization and Portrayal weren't under the Cookie, Jamal, or Hakeem article; they were only under the Lucious article. The articles should all match. Characterization encompasses Portrayal. Characterization and Portrayal are very different things to you, yes. They are pretty much the same to nearly everyone else.

6. Also, Casting is not a part of how the character is developed. Casting is separate, it involves the actor much more so than the actual character; it is finding the woman or man who will be able to in the future properly portray the character. Development comes after creation; development means growth, it is not the beginning, but what happens after the beginning. The very definition of development is to advance, not to be created. Development is character change, not the process of how the character first came to be or what s/he started out as. Definitely in some literary circles development and creation overlap and are used interchangeably, but they are actually two different things.

7. Character status as alive or deceased is related to that character. Look at the Harry Potter (character) page. His relatives are listed as alive or deceased. If Bunkie is deceased it actually does affect the connection he has to Cookie. He's not her cousin anymore, he's dead. He's her deceased cousin, in the same way that (for example) if someone had a sister who died, they wouldn't say I have a sister, but I had a sister. The status does affect the relationship because the condition of it is changed. Whatever agreement you guys came to, I'm sure on another page someone came to a different agreement. Thanks, Kinfoll1993 (talk) 06:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm commenting on this dispute, per this query. Besides looking at other character articles, you two should look at Manual of Style/Television (MOS:TV); it offers good advice on how to set up character articles. Read what its sections state; don't just look at that guideline's structure. The structure of character articles can vary, as that guideline makes clear, and they commonly vary when it comes to daytime soap opera setups vs. primetime soap opera setups. Regarding the Storyline section of the Lucious Lyon article, there is no need for a "Season one" subheading. If the only material in that section is about the first season, then do not add a subheading for that.


 * As for the Casting and creation section (I fixed the heading here, per MOS:HEAD), it can be a part of the Development section or separate from it. I usually prefer that it is a subsection of the Development section, since it concerns development of the character.


 * I disagree with having the subheadings under the Relationships section; this is because, per MOS:Paragraphs, "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." The content in the Relationships section is relatively small, and I don't see how it requires its subheadings. For a similar discussion about unnecessary subheadings, see this one I started at the WP:Film talk page.


 * Yes, "alias" is not the same as "birth name," unless they are somehow both.


 * There can be a "Characterization and portrayal" heading, but I can see why a person would view having both "characterization" and "portrayal" in the heading as redundant. Manual of Style/Television has advice for such a section. Another option is to have the casting and portrayal information placed together, so that the section is titled "Casting and portrayals." You might want to include the characterization information there, since it all usually goes hand in hand, or you might want to have a "Casting and portrayals" section and a "Personality" section; as currently seen at the Todd Manning article, this is what Figureskatingfan and I did after much WP:Civil debating on that article's talk page.


 * Regarding "Character status," I take it that you two mean the infobox? Either way, I am against indicating "alive" or "deceased" in the infobox or as a section in the article. This is because the characters are fictional, and, depending on what point a viewer is at with regard to watching the show, those characters are alive or deceased. In other words, the character might be dead to you at a certain episode, but that character is alive to a viewer who has just started watching the series. Like Manual of Style/Writing about fiction states, "By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed (see also WP:TENSE). At any particular point in the story there is a 'past' and a 'future', but whether something is 'past' or 'future' changes as the story progresses. It is simplest and conventional to recount the entire description as continuous 'present'." From what I see, the same goes for the infobox or a section titled "Status" in this regard. Flyer22 (talk) 08:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks for your help. So, quick run thru/questions:

1. Creation---if it's inside Development, fine. If it's outside, fine. Since either way works (though you prefer it to be inside the section) I'm willing to put it back if that's the vote (it looks like it) or keep it if Nk3play2 will keep it.

2. When the relationships get big enough though, then shouldn't we separate the paragraphs? I mean when the sections become long enough for each relationship (i.e. Jamal's relationship with Cookie is over 500 words, his relationship with Lucious is over 500 words, with Hakeem over 500 words, etc...) can we separate them?

3. I'd really prefer there not to be both a Characterization and Portrayal section, and I would like to place the Casting and Portrayal section together/merge as a suggested option. I think the section Personality would fit well under here.

4. I'll run thru the list of information/pages about articles you sent and hopefully we can move forward with the page soon.

Kinfoll1993 (talk) 10:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Four Reasons why homophobia should be addressed.
Extract on homophobia 41.116.65.252 (talk) 14:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)