Talk:Ludwig Kasner

Margarete and Ludwig
According to Heiratsurkunde Nr. 542 Standesamt Berlin X b 1925 (marriage record), Ludwig Kasner was born 17.10.1896 in Poznan and died 3.2.1959 at the premises of the Soviet Military Administration in Germany at Berlin-Karlshorst as noted in Sterbeurkunde Nr. 326 Standesamt Berlin-Lichtenberg 1959 (death record). Marie Margarete Pörschke was born 11.8.1905 at Berlin-Kreuzberg and died 9.11.1986 at Berlin-Pankow as noted in Sterbebuch Nr. 676 (death record) SeanLeCarnet (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

The woman in the picture is definetly not Margarete, please compare it to the other pictures in circulation for example the one showing Margarete and Ludwig Kasner with their son Horst presented by their relative Zygmunt Rychlicki Here you find that picture. Probably it is a girl friend of Ludwig he dated shortly after the war in Poland. He would certainly not show up in an enemy uniform in Germany in those days. SeanLeCarnet (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Kasner did not take his "German-born fiancée Margarethe with him to Poznan ... to later settle in Berlin". "Ludwig Kazmierczak was one of those who left his native land and part of his family behind and set off for Berlin, where he met his future wife Margarethe. Their son Horst was born in 1926. But it wasn’t until 1930 that Ludwig Kazmierczak decided to adopt the German version of his surname and began calling himself Kasner." →Stefan Kornelius, Angela Merkel: The Authorized Biography, Alma Books Ltd, Richmond, 2013, page 14, ISBN-13: 978-1846883071, here --IIIraute (talk) 20:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for this correction. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

However, a number of sources said they stayed in Poznan for some time, and the famous photo of him and his fiancée is taken in Poznan in early 1919. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Deutsche Welle
Deutsche Welle says: "He took his German-born fiancée Margarethe with him to Poznan. They later emigrated to Berlin and changed their surname from "Kazmierczak" to "Kasner."" This is consistent with the photograph of them taken in Poznan in early 1919 with him in the Blue Army uniform. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 21:03, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Deutsche Welle article is entirely based on the Polish daily "Gazeta Wyborcza". Reputable secondary sources are usually based on more than one primary source. --IIIraute (talk) 00:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

This newspaper apparently says that he moved as late as 1923, and we have the photo of him in the Blue Army uniform with his fiancée that is taken in Poznan in early 1919 according to the family. I hence don't find it credible or supported by the sources that he only met his fiancée after moving to Berlin. They must have met well before that and Deutsche Welle says they stayed in Poznan for some time, which seems very credible and consistent with the other information and with the photograph. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 05:00, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Fighting for Polish independence
"He subsequently joined the Blue Army, fighting for Polish independence on the side of the Entente Powers." Deutsche Welle: "According to the largest Polish daily "Gazeta Wyborcza," her grandfather Ludwig Kazmierczak was Polish and is believed to have fought against the Germans as a Polish soldier in 1918." see Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: "...during the First World War, [this army] was formed under French command, from German POW's of Polish origin, and at least some of their units, have fought in 1918 ... experts, like the Polish historian Wolodzimierz Boriodziej did confirm to this newspaper, that it is not ruled out that Kazmierczak could have raised his arms against Germany." see --IIIraute (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The article didn't say he raised arms against Germany, merely that he belonged to Haller's Army as evidenced by the photograph, a unit that fought for Poland's independence (and not just against Germany). Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 20:53, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Description
Quite frankly, I don't think "ethnic Polish policeman of German nationality" is the best wording, because stressing ethnicity so strongly in the context of describing him in his profession as a policeman who worked in Berlin and who was a German citizen seems somewhat odd. If a person of Polish ethnicity had American citizenship and worked as a policeman in the US, we would primarily describe him as an American policeman, probably something like "an American policeman of Polish origin" or "a Polish-born American policeman" or something. Afaik, he only worked as a policeman in Berlin. I think the article already conveyed his Polish family background adequately. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 04:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You are right; please see → WP:OPENPARAGRAPH --IIIraute (talk) 05:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The thing is, he is mostly notable for being Angela Merkel's Polish ancestor, rather than being a policeman. So the problem with the wording is the stress on his profession rather than his ethnicity.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:05, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but being Merkel's grandfather doesn't mean he remained primarily Polish for his entire life. People are chiefly associated with the country they live in and the citizenship they hold, and there is no doubt that he became a German policeman of Polish ethnic background. Sibel Kekilli has Turkish ethnic background, but is described as a German actress (despite being known for acting in very Turkish-themed films). Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 05:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

An observation
Just a point I would like to make: I think the widespread perception in Poland and beyond is that he looks rather handsome in that elegant uniform that he seemingly wears with pride and confidence. It doesn't look at all like he was forced to join the Blue Army as a prisoner of war. That said, his later decision to Germanize himself would be equally unpopular with the Polish nationalists as his service with the Blue Army would be with WWI era German nationalists (few people in Germany nowadays feel strongly about WWI era events). If German nationalists interpret the interest in his service with the Blue Army as some sort of malice, they are in error. His later decision to move to Berlin was seemingly influenced by the fact that this was the hometown of his wife. Thus the couple illustrates how ethnic boundaries in the former areas of Germany and Austria with large Polish populations could be rather blurred and subject to personal choices, and his personal biography is in itself an interesting illustration of the history of the area he came from. Elizabeth Cumberbatch (talk) 18:34, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Horst Kasner Xx236 (talk) 10:51, 23 May 2017 (UTC)