Talk:Lufthansa Flight 2904

Inconsistencies in technical description of accident causes
--Mareklug talk 21:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[...]they could have avoided this catastrophe by fulfilling at least one of the two required conditions to activate the thrust-reverse and brake flaps.

Could they have avoided the aquaplaning anyhow? --Abdull 09:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

--

The following statements are completely contradictory:

1) To ensure that the thrust-reverse and the brake flaps are only activated in a landing situation, all of the following conditions have to be true: the airplane is lower than 3 meter and there must be a weight of over 12 tons on each landing gear the wheels of the plane turning with more than 72 knot the thrust levers must be in the idle (or reverse thrust) position

2) If the pilots had received precise instruction on the implementation of the braking system of the A320, they could have avoided this catastrophe by fulfilling at least one of the two required conditions to activate the thrust-reverse and brake flaps.

Can someone clarify if the thrust reversers and/or brake flaps can be deployed if only one of the first two conditions have been met?

--Anonymous, 12 September 2007

Inconsistency issue
Moved from my talk page: Hi. While improving the article, you removed the Expert-editor's-attention-needed template, but you did not remove the contradicted information which prompted me to put it there in the first place. See discussion page for details, as others noticed the problem long ago, but no one has fixed it. Can you? If you can't, please put the template back in the article. Thanks, --Mareklug talk 08:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Onee more thing: The new image you made and just added to the article, showing where on the runway the right wheel (blue) and the left wheel (yellow) touched down is spatially wrong. The right-side (blue) information is presented on the left-hand side, and the left-side (yellow) information is presented on the right-hand side. This will cause complete misunderstanding of the situation on other language versions. And please double check that the plane veered off to the right, as is shown in your graphic, in light of the above left-right discrepancy. Best, --Mareklug talk 08:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * To address your last concern first, right/left on an aircraft are determined by looking forward from the cockpit. When an observer in front of the plane looks head on at it right and left are reversed. (You can also see this effect by standing in front of and facing a friend then asking them to raise their right hand, you'll notice that their right is your left.)


 * As to your first concern, I did look at this page before removing the tag, and meant to remove the at least one of the two statement but forgot. It's gone now. Anynobody 21:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You completely ignored my "last concern" which you addressed first. I am not talking about the common ambiguity left/right with regard to position of the observer or your first image, where you added a parenthetical note condensing your answer above. I'm talking about the second image, the one of the runway, where you presented left-hand information on the right and made the same reversal with respect to the right-hand information.  This will cause untold grief on other language versions, where the graphic will have to stand on its own.  You should fix the graphic so that the left wheel info is presented on the left, and the right wheel info is presented on the right. Note that the position of the observer in that graphic and the handedness of the aircraft are shared, so your discussion is completely off-topic here. --Mareklug talk 21:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh I see, here's the thing on that... the yellow and blue lines aren't supposed to correspond with the actual tires themselves (if it was meant that way, I would have continued the blue line all the way to the end since it didn't leave the ground when the other strut stopped hydroplaning.) The lines just help illustrate distance from the runway's threshold, since the observer is offset. Anynobody 02:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * PS Didn't you wonder what the red line at 180 m meant if the lines to the side were supposed to represent individual landing gear? Anynobody 02:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am perplexed that you can't see the need for revising the graphic. Once again, this is not some arbitrary distance that "the lines just help illustrate".  They are precisely the touchdown of the right strut (blue) and the touchdown of the left strut (yellow).  Here, read again the image caption you yourself provided:

From runway 11's threshold: Right strut touchdown, 770 m. Left strut, 1525 m. From runway 29's threshold: Left runway, 180 m.


 * Given your unfortunate reverse presentation of this information -- the left strut touchdown distance shown to the right of the runway and the right strut touchdown distance shown on the left of the runway -- the graphic strongly implies that it was the left strut that touched down at 770 m from the runway 11 threshold, and that it is the right strut that finally touched down for the first time at 1525 m from the runway 11 threshhold. Only the image caption counters this perception.  Why don't you fix the graphic, so that the persons who don't understand English and only regard the graphic, grasp your intended information without fail?  Why don't you see that your reversed presentation requires the image caption to avoid imparting the wrong information?  The graphic should be lucid even without any information provided in its caption.  And no, the red line toward the end of the runway 11 (near the threshhold of runway 29) is not at all problematic, since the only event implied by the graphic at that point in the trajectory is the debauching of the actual path taken from the straight and narrow, i.e. the aircraft leaves the runway to the side and continues. The "180 m" is obvious in this context, and does not require the restatement of any info in the caption text.  By the way, you could have chosen a more fortunate phrasing for the aircraft turning starboard and leaving the runway than your choice of: Left runway, 180 m., since Left unfortunately has a directional meaning as a homonym in English for "did leave" as well as "to port".  Please be more sensitive to the ergonomics of information presentation in the English language as well as through graphics. Your graphics should make sense without the crutch of text supplied elsewhere in the article, be it their captions or the at large discussion elsewhere in the article, precisely because anybody could be looking at it, or wishing to reuse it, without necessarily knowing any English. --Mareklug talk 06:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Once again, the placement of parallel colored lines to the runway does not represent which side of the main gear touched first. They simply illustrate length in a perspective drawing which can be deceptive if not marked.
 * I'm frankly perplexed at the amount of effort you are putting into this given the diagram in question. [[Image:Flight 29041129.png|thumb|Link to previous version]]If the lines were meant to trace the progress of the right/left struts then the blue line should continue rather than stop and the red 180 m line should be on both sides of the runway since it would imply both struts. (Plus reversing the 1525 m/770 m messes up the overall arrangement of the image. 1525 m crowds 180 m in both space and color plus 770 m is a bit too close to the edge.) Anynobody 07:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that at least you rephrased the ambiguous "Left" bit with verbiage indicating "to the right" in the caption. Now, here's a constructive and exact suggestion for improvement that won't "mess up the overall arrangement of the image":  Just move the lenghtwise distance visualization lines (yellow and blue, parallel to the runway) to the opposite ends of the marked distances (blue and yellow line segments crossing the runway).  This will address my objection and keep your graphic largely unchanged.  But by doing so, you will have removed the unintended misleadingness.  Face it: What you intended to show, and what you actually ended up showing, are not the same. Forget the "if the lines were meant to..." type of reasoning.  Just accept that what the lines actually do is not what they should be doing.  A bit of open mind would help here.  Someone is telling you that your thing is not working, and all you do in return is try to restate what you meant to show. I assure you, hearing it once was clear enough, as opposed to the clarity of your graphic. :)  I am about to give up on trying to convince you - and already asked for wider comment by the community on the project discussion page.  Either that, or should damn change the thing myself. --Mareklug talk 10:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just like to say I support Mareklug's comment about the image being misleading, whatever your intentions, or even what the text states. The image gives an impression that the port wheel touchdown was 770m and the starboard at 1525m, I think if you just swap the 770 and 1525 over it might no be so confusing. Although I suspect with a bit of thought the drawing could be changed to a different view to better reflect the textual message. MilborneOne 12:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * 180 Metres - anybody know what the 180m line on the image is for - it does not appear in the article or in the linked accident report. Also the aircraft did not go to the right as in the diagram but carried on over the threshold the aircraft rolled over the end of the runway. It says the aircraft was starting to turn right but not in the right-hand bend fashion the image shows. MilborneOne 13:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * OK so I understand that the 180 metres is when the aircraft started to turn right, 180 metres to go it had only turned 10 degrees (to 121), at 60 metres it had turned another 9 degrees (to 130). The term aircraft swerved right gives an impression of a much larger turn. Also note that the distance between the 1525m line and the 180m line which is only short in the image is really 1095 metres. Perhaps a less perspective view of the runway would make it clearer. MilborneOne 13:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I really appreciate the effort that went into producing the graphic, but I have to agree that unless the information is presented accurately, it actually degrades the article rather than helps it. My main concern isn't the blue and yellow lines (althought I think the presentation would be enhanced if they were switched, it's the placement of the curve. The aircraft didn't leave the runway at the point that the drawing shows. It may have started turning at that point, but it didn't depart the side of the runway, it crossed the threashold.  AK Radecki Speaketh  14:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

You have a good point on the aircraft's path, I missed the part where it hit the embankment after leaving the end of the runway. That does require fixing. As I said above, reversing the distance markers will not look right. I'll try it from a different perspective though. Anynobody 00:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

MilborneOne, where did you get the information about how many degrees the plane was actually able to turn and when? (180 metres to go it had only turned 10 degrees (to 121), at 60 metres it had turned another 9 degrees (to 130).) Anynobody 01:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Nevermind I found it. Anynobody 04:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Incosistentancies in pilot actions
Part of the article says that the pilots were following stand operating procedures as described by the flight manual during for the reported conditions, but another part of the article states that the pilot were at fault for their actions. These two statements are inconsistent.

So, were the pilots doing what they were supposed to do, or did they not? Or is there something else in the details that makes these two statements non-contradictory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.67.97.194 (talk) 19:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)