Talk:Luis Posada Carriles/Archive 1

Luis Posada Carriles & 2000 assassination plot
Anti-Castro Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles has just appeared in the U.S. requesting political asylum. Here are two news reports from the BBC and the Miami Herald. Here's a more specific link to the Miami Herald (registration required).

Luis Posada Carriles, although born in Cuba is the former head of the Venezuelan secret police, according to the New York Times. He was convicted of bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1976, killing 73. He subsequently escaped from prison. If asylum is denied, he may be extradited to Venezuela.

In 2000 he was convicted with Gaspar Jimenez, Pedro Remon and Guillermo Novo Sampol of conspiring to assasinate Fidel Castro. The 4 were subsequently pardoned by the Panamanian government in 2004. Jimenex, Remon and Novo were admitted into the United States. The Washington Post article mentions that Novo was convicted of the assasination of former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier. The conviction was reversed on appeal, but Novo spent 4 months in jail for perjury.

Anti-Communist Cuban activists are alleged to have carried out numerous terrorist acts over the past 40 years. It is alleged that Luis Posada Carriles has worked for the Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF), which denies any connection. The Miami Herald has recently run articles querying CANF's ties to terrorism. CANF deserves an article in its own right, or a subsection within Operation Condor.

For now, we ought to be able to incorporate the attempted assassination information into the Fidel Castro article in a NPOV way. It could replace the final sentence of the Fidel Castro section, which reads It has been confirmed that Castro has been the target of multiple CIA-sponsored assassinations, but none have been reported since the early 1960s. DJ Silverfish 23:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moved ext lks
This is not the place for a legal brief, which is what all the footnote-style ext lks make it look and feel like. No doubt they are of interest as sources for further editing, so they are preserved here: --Jerzy (t) 08:43, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
 * letelier-docs
 * airliner bombing?
 * Op Condor?
 * Castro hit?
 * pardons?

Evaluation of press coverage
The following
 * The coverage of Posada entry into the United States in mainstream media is very limited. The Miami Herald was the only large media outlet in the US discussing the story. Most of the coverage is provided by Cuban and Latin American media. The White House is also silent on the topic of Posada's entry.

can serve as advice to editors, but whether it is evidence of a conspiracy against him or of his non-notablility, it is not sufficiently useful info abt him to be in the article. --Jerzy (t) 16:38, 2005 Apr 26 (UTC)

adding a photograph
I have uploaded this image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Luis_Posada_Carriles.jpg for inclusion in the article. I'd rather use a more current picture, maybe in addition to this older one. I'm not certain how copyright law would apply to an image from a Cuban website. This may be our best bet for a current image. DJ Silverfish 15:56, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

DemocracyNow Show
Monday, May 9th, 2005 Terrorist Cuban Exile Luis Posada Carriles Seeking Political Asylum in U.S. If you haven't already, I recommend watching/listening: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/148243 --jenlight 14:31, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Double Surname
I agree with DJ Silverfish's edit that the double surname should not be repeated over and over. However, never using the full surname without the given name is not the only alternative: The NYTimes would follow this practice: I consider it a valuably informative approach (of course w/o the "Mr.", which we never use, irrespective of the subjects culture), and suggest unless WP has a clear policy against it for Spanish-language surnames. --Jerzy·t 06:54 & 15:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * first ref: "Luis Posada Carriles"
 * second ref: "Mr. Posada Carriles"
 * subsequent refs: "Mr. Carriles Posada"
 * first ref: "Luis Posada Carriles"
 * second ref: "Posada Carriles"
 * subsequent refs: " Carriles Posada"
 * I just asked a Colombian user on his talk page about this a couple of days ago, but I forgot to follow it up here. Indeed, normally we don't use the second (maternal) family name in articles, but we have to be careful because there are some compound family names in the Spanish world like those in the Anglo-Saxon. For example, the name of this Peruvian politician, Víctor Raúl Haya de la Torre, looks like a double surname, but it isn't; someone had edited that article referring to him as "Haya", which was incorrect. I checked with a Peruvian user then corrected this. So, be careful! -- Viajero | Talk 10:59, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Pace User:Jerzy above, I thought it unlikely that the NYT would refer to him by his 2nd surname alone. A brief check revealed the NYT using Mr Posada here, which seems more likely/correct to me. A lot of the time -- even when they are 2 discrete names and not compounds à la Haya de la Torre (or José López Portillo) -- it's also a function of personal use preference and how common the paternal name is. –Hajor 13:42, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree w/ the point of Hajor's 1st sentence: i intended to indicate the first surname, and i'm embarassed to be caught, editing so late that i can't say what i mean. I've marked up my previous contrib (& of course re-signed), to say what i meant.
 * As to the current NYT article H lks to, it indeed differs not just from what i said, but also from what i intended to say, and my recollection: it goes straight from full name to 1st surname, without stopping between to use, once, the double surname without the given name. It's barely possible that they slipped in this one article, but i'll be interested to hear which more likely possibility applies: whether it turns out to look like a change in their style-book (bcz the cosmopolitan knowledge of their typical reader has risen, obviating the instructive bridge between first and subsequent references?), or a subtlety that i had not perceived (namely treating some Spanish-language double surnames differently from others, as Viajero describes).
 * --Jerzy·t 15:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * A quibble about names "in the Anglo-Saxon" world: that's not broad enuf to cover the indivisible names, and not narrow enough to leave out all somewhat divisible ones. I'm thinking of Mies van der Rohe, Ludwig and Brinch Hansen, Per on one hand (Dutch & maybe German), and on the other, D'Oyly Carte, Richard (Brit but probably somewhat divisible. (Intimates sometimes refer to him, in Topsy Turvy (which was presumably rigorously researched to satisfy the many G&S fans who are fanatical experts on that micro-world) simply as "Carte", suggesting that at least some British cases are not entirely indivisible.)
 * Also, perhaps:
 * the info being accumulated here needs to go into Spanish-language surname (and Portuguese surname, since i am given to understand double surnames are common among ordinary Brazilian business people), and
 * the WP:MOS coverage of names needs to refer to that, and
 * we need to document, on the double-surnamers' corresponding bio articles' talk pages, the evidence for dividing the surname or not.
 * --Jerzy·t 02:23, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification and subsequent comments; as you were, then. As note in the margin, the article on Spanish surnames is at Spanish and Portuguese names; would it be worthwhile to make those two redlinks above redirects? –Hajor 16:12, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes and done. DanKeshet 18:05, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

thinning the links
I have removed four external links to the BBC. If a reader completes our article, they already know almost everything in those BBC articles. I haven't had a chance to evaluate all the others yet, but I think that linking to a site should say that we think a reader can learn something (whether we agree with the site or not) by reading it. DanKeshet 20:11, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've also removed the link to google news and the Radio Reloj, in the first case because people are capable of performing their own searches and the second, I didn't think the article added much information. DanKeshet 20:18, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've restored the Google and BBC links. The Google link provides the only means of checking Miami Herald articles and the Herald's reporting is very imporant to this topic.  This kind of specialized search may not be used by most casual searchers.  The BBC links may be excessive, but I'd rather include than exclude.  If a specific link is redunant, then it can go. DJ Silverfish 21:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I've formatted the Google news search so it works right. The BBC article about Posada's CIA links was a write-up of a press release about the National Security Archive collection of documents we already have linked above.  The "seeking asylum" and "not aiding" ones are old, irrelevant, or incorrect.  (For example, one leads with the U.S. state department claiming Posada might not be in the country, after he had already announed to the press that he was seeking asylum, and shortly before he was arrested.)


 * The BBC links were excessive and they do harm. The other links are informative, but blended in with a bunch of useless links a reader is likely to just write off the whole external link section. DanKeshet 21:26, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * The more news sources, the better. Better yet: proper references; it would save a lot of hassle further down the road (speaking from experience), but the citation markup isn't (yet?) ideal. Still, check it out: WP:CITE. -- Viajero | Talk 21:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * V: you don't address my argument. There are 1000's of articles on Posada that anybody can find very easily.  It's our job to sift through them and only link to the informative ones (like the NY Times series).  By linking to ones that aren't very informative, we waste the reader's time.  DanKeshet 21:37, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * Re-thinking what V said, I wouldn't object if the BBC articles were re-inserted under a "References" heading, if they were used as generic background for writing the article. DanKeshet 02:34, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * You are right, we should link to useful articles. My main concern is the removal of articles which may have been used as sources for given pieces of information, because it could lead to the situation where someone challenges an assertion, and we no longer know where it came from. (Alas, I've had this experience.) It might not be readily apparent which articles are important in this way. As I pointed out above, ideally we would use citation markup to solve this, but it hasn't really caught on. Myself, I have only tried it once, in this article: Bolkestein directive, using one of the less than perfect markup schemes. Of course, cited articles can later disappear (or cost money a la NYT), but that is an entirely different problem. -- Viajero | Talk 12:04, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

diplomatic battles
Just a note for myself and others: this article needs to put Posada into the context of diplomatic battles. His pardon by Panama, for example, set off a diplomatic spat between Cuba and Panama, the issue of his extradition isn't just a personal affair, it's a high affair of state right now, involving the U.S., Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico (Posada's country-of-entry into the U.S.), and El Salvador (which may want to try Posada for carrying falsified Salvadoran documents). This article doesn't really adequately explain this.

Also, I have broadened our description of him. Before, he was painted as a sort of anti-Castro fighter, dedicated to the overthrow of Castro. This is true, but his career has been much broader than that, spanning much of the hemisphere and involving security services in numerous countries. He didn't just "come to world attention" when he showed up in the U.S.; he is a bona fide terrorist celebrity. DanKeshet 23:55, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

"acquitted twice" correction
Updated a slight inaccuracy; Carriles was not acquitted twice. The first acquittal was nulllified by the courts, declaring that he and the others should have been tried in a civilian court. He then escaped from prison before the new case was finished. --Tarc 18:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Removed another statement to the same effect. Ze miguel 16:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Convenio para la represión de actos ilícitos contra la seguridad de la aviación civil
I've found that the "Convenio para la represión de actos ilícitos contra la seguridad de la aviación civil" or Treaty on the Repression of Illict Activities Against Civil Aviation Safety (free translation of mine) has been cited (here and specially here, along with other international treaties) as another legal reason for the extradition of Posada Carriles to Venezuela (besides of the 1922 bilateral agreement). It would seem relevant to add some reference to such treatie(s) in the article body, but I wouldn't know how to write it properly in English or even find the right references. -- R. from es:wiki

voltaire network
it may be "conspirational garbage" to you, but is considered a reliable information source on most subjects (i'm not speaking about Sept-11). The linked article is completely respectable. Like all sources, it must not be taken as God's word. This doesn't impede it being quoted here, as it is totally relevant. Kaliz 19:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Who removed "CIA-backed terrorist"
I hesitated to remove "CIA-backed terrorist," as I am not knowledgable about Luis Posada Carriles. However, I realized I need not know anything about him to reasonably conclude whether or not the CIA backs terrorists. As no substantive discussion as to the validity of the removed claim is present, I decided to contribute to Wikepedia's encyclopedia. As well, I would like to discuss the case for-or-against the existence of CIA-backed terrorism with a serious person via private email (to avoid discourse overun by irresistable and self-fullfilling prophetic fantasies of evil empires and messages from God) My email: aidpwn4298@yahoo.com

.BR and .AR Nuclear Weapons Agency May EXTRACT POSADA CARRILES
IMMEDIATE RELEASE: BRAZILIAN NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAMME vs Luis Posada Carriles AT DHS EL PASO.

EXTRACTION FROM DHS FACILITY EXPECTED WITHIN A WEEK.

http://www.ice.gov/pi/dro/facilities/elpaso.htm

There has been a significant increase in questionable activity by both Brazillian and Argentinian forward operations throughout Juarez and El Paso, TX, specificly targeted at the DHS/immigration facility there where Luis Posada Carriles is heald.

It is very likely, as with the russia/iran peering, the various larger south american countries are preparing to extract Luis Posada Carriles by force from the DHS facility in the immediate near future.

The Brazillian Nuclear weapons programme is directly working with and following the same research protocols as Iran, and is expected to continue its work in parallel. They are at greater risk than Iran due to the lack of public awareness of american aggressive intent at this time.

I will go down there again, but its quite apparent that various parties have taken the regions around the dhs holding facility and potential airlift locations, and it is currently controlled in a manner consistant with commando-style extraction of the target.

Of course, BLA terrorists in cuba and farmers in bolivia, amongst incan drug runners and navajo come to mind in current local news media as well...

-Wilfred Wilfred@Cryogen.com

Laredo Bru
The historical figure Laredo Bru is commonly viewed as a puppet president placed in power by Batista; however, he was also the last Mambi to hold the Cuban presidency. As to contributor "Laredo Bru" the expression "nonsense" is not a very good argument, since such merely expresses POV. El Jigue

Insertion of pro-Castro/pro-Chavez POV continues
It is quite apparent that insertion of pro-Castro/pro-Chavez POV continues without explanation or rationalization. El Jigue