Talk:Luke Girgis

Luke Girgis
Hi,

I built this page around the individual, rather than the individuals music project. Consolodating or redirecting the article into the music project is inappropriate as I would argue the person is now more notable for their position as director of shock records and for their position as a manager in Australian Music than for their artist project (last release 2010??]. If you would like to take this to the talk page to have a moderator assess the situation I would be happy to go this route, but scrapping the article into a redirect without discussion is inappropriate, and consolidating the information into the artist project is misleading since this article is about the individual, rather than the musical artist.

Further to the above, I realised that you transcluded the data for the Talent Manager into the artist project, this is backwards as 'if' you were to merge the pages (which I feel is a mistake since users have entirely different reasons to seek out information on either) it would make more sense to incorporate the artist project into the individual biography as a subsection. E.g. if someone is googling Luke Girgis (as the manager of Little Sea or the director of Shock Records, they are not looking for information on Coptic Soldier the artist project, and the two things are entirely separate. My suggestion would be a tag at the top of the page offering a ' for the individuals musical project please see Coptic Soldier'.

ex. the discussion of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Green_(musician) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_Colour (which is infact more of a grey area as this is about consolidation of an individual with multiple solo or group music acts, and regardless they would be rolled into the individual instead of the artist project)

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justthemusic (talk • contribs) 22:12, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The above discussion has been transcluded here by me.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Responses

 * 1) On 13 January  PRODed the article, Luke Girgis. I noticed that the subject already had another article under the performance name, Coptic Soldier. I decided to transclude the usable content from Luke Girgis to Coptic Soldier and add content with reliable sources.
 * 2) I also made Luke Girgis into a redirect to Coptic Soldier.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 3)  reverted my edits both here and at Luke Girgis and provided the above statement at my talkpage.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 01:32, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) How is Luke Girgis, sans Coptic Soldier, notable enough for a stand alone article? According to Justthemusic this is due to his being a talent manager for certain artists and being a director of a record label. Consider the Notability policy, in what way(s) does Girgis meet any of the criteria? On the basis of the lack of significant coverage in reliable sources, a stand-alone article is not justified.
 * 5) Since Coptic Soldier already exists and no one had challenged the notability of that subject, I was following this policy by transcluding material to it and then making Luke Girgis a redirect to the previously existing article.
 * 6) The current Luke Girgis article does not even mention Coptic Soldier, as if that aspect of the person's career is irrelevant to his latter day pursuits. I contend while performing as Coptic Soldier, Girgis developed contacts with fellow artists which led to his work as a record producer, talent manager and label director. All these are inextricably interwoven as development of the career of Coptic Soldier and are not disparate. That's way this content was added to the Coptic Soldier article.
 * 7) Consequently the previous material in Coptic Soldier should be returned to this article to provide a full account of his overall career.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Response

 * 1) As per my comment to your talk page, the artist project and the individual are of separate significance, I would argue that there is more relevance to the individual biography than the artist page, if anything I would suggest folding the Coptic Soldier article into Luke Girgis, rather than the other way around, which would be convoluted and confusing for users but may satisfy all parties. I can take care of this folding, since it's essentially the same as what you already did but in reverse.
 * 2) The notability of Coptic Soldier isn't in dispute, but that is an artist project for the individual, the relevancy of whom I already referenced in the article. Asserting that the business connections developed during the artist project were used to develop the talent manager and musical director career is fine, but I don't see how that means it makes sense to fold it into the artist project page, given it has no relevancy to that project? This would be like if Thom Yorke were a CEO or director of a company and you folded those achievements into the Radiohead article.
 * 3) I don't see how the relevancy of Luke Girgis as a living person biography is really in question, I referenced over a dozen accessible articles specifically on the individual, many of which are from large Australian music publications, only a small handful of these articles even mentioned Coptic Soldier. I understand that there was a prod by, which I contest, but that still doesn't mean it makes sense to merge the article
 * 4) Simply being the director of Australia's largest independent record label would qualify a stub, however he is also the manager for verified and notable music acts within Australia with nested wiki pages; all of this has nothing to do with the artist project, which is one facet of the individuals work.

Replies

 * The above four responses were provided by User:Justthemusic, a little over 2 hours after my commentaries, higher up. I would ask that Justthemusic sign all talkpage edits to assist in maintaining dialogue integrity. I will address each of the issues raised, in turn.
 * You claim that the two articles are of "separate significance". I dispute this, I argue that Girgis latter day career is not as widely known as the earlier one by Coptic Soldier and that it was substantially built upon that earlier career. This is supported by Duffbeerforme's PRODing of the Girgis article. You seem to agree that both articles could be combined into one but prefer the Girgis one to be the main one with Coptic Soldier as a redirect.
 * I agree that Coptic Soldier's notability is not in dispute, however Girgis as a stand-alone article is in dispute. I believed the best solution was to place relevant Girgis material into Coptic Soldier and made Girgis the redirect: you argue the opposite. The direction of the redirect is determined by the policy document, WP:Common names. I argue that Coptic Soldier is more widely known in reliable independent sources than Luke Girgis sans Coptic Soldier.
 * You claim to have provided "over a dozen accessible articles". The current article has 11 references:
 * [1] Is hardly a "significant coverage" of Girgis; his co-management of Little Sea is misrepresented in the article: where is Matt Canning mentioned? Note also that even sole management of a notable artist does not make the manager notable: notability is not inherited.
 * [2] Claims that Michael Hutchence of INXS is a client on his current roster: Hutchence died in 1997. Establishes Girgis' direct connection to the Be Like Children company. Of itself, none of this is of notable significance.
 * [3] As seen above, this is not an independent source. Note that it repeats material seen in other websites and that its tone is not neutral.
 * [4] Supports Coptic Soldier's notability, not Luke Girgis sans Coptic Soldier.
 * [5] A recent website: does it have a history of editorial independence? How is this a reliable source?
 * [6] Chance Waters used to be Phatchance and was a performance partner of Coptic Soldier. Once again, because Waters is notable does not mean his co-manager/label co-owner is.
 * [7] Mostly about Waters, does not make Girgis notable.
 * [8] About Waters, Girgis not mentioned.
 * [9] Mostly about~ The Seed Fund, not significant coverage of Girgis.
 * [10] Mostly about Little Sea.
 * [11] About Little Sea, no mention of Girgis.


 * 1) According to the notability policy simply being a director of a record label or a talent manager of notable artists is not of itself sufficient to make the person notable. Girgis achievements need to be shown in significant coverage in several independent and reliable sources. Currently this is not shown in the Luke Girgis article, which because it now ignores Coptic Soldier does not establish the individual's notability.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I still see no reason why Coptic Soldier should not retain the material that I had transcluded earlier and that Luke Girgis remain a redirect.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It is now over a week since I replied to your concerns here. You have provided no new arguments to refute my points – I will propose Luke Girgis to be merged into Coptic Soldier to avoid duplication of the overlapping content. I will return Coptic Soldier to the form it was before you reverted my earlier edits.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:38, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

AfD Luke Girgis
At Articles for deletion/Luke Girgis it was resolved that Luke Girgis become a redirect to Coptic Soldier. This agrees with my position above.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:43, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Shock Records CEO?
The Australian independent label, Shock Records, was established in 1988 by David Williams, Frank Falvo and Andrew McGee. According to Lars Brandle of Billboard, "The glory days came to a stunning halt in 2010 when Shock's debts caught up with it and the company changed hands." By December 2011 Williams had stood down as the CEO with Scot Crawford replacing him. Crawford, himself, had left Shock Records by March 2013 coinciding with "a flurry of departures from" the label leaving Craig May as the general manager.

I can not find any independent reliable source which shows Luke Girgis as being a Shock Records director. I have put a citation needed in the article for this claim and will wait a week from that time before deleting the claim if it remains unsupported by a suitable source.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * It is now over a week since I questioned the claim that Girgis is a director at Shock Records: no independent reliable source has been supplied and so I will delete this. Please do not add this or any other contentious unsupported claims to this biography.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:48, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

AfD Luke Girgis 2
A second nomination for deletion, Articles for deletion/Luke Girgis (2nd nomination), is in progress. Pending its conclusion the article on Coptic Soldier should not be seen as favouring one outcome or another. I have reverted recent edits here and so returned the Lead back to its form on 2 May 2016.

Specifically the introductory phrase: "This article is about Luke George Girgis's musical project Coptic Soldier, for the article on the individual please see Luke Girgis." sounds like a hat note and that Coptic Soldier is somehow a subsidiary article to Luke Girgis.

The first AfD recommended that Luke Girgis be a redirect article not a stand-alone one. The current AfD has not determined whether it should be deleted, kept or returned to its redirect status. I have, again, argued that Luke Girgis should be a redirect to this article.

I asked editors not to change this article to favour any particular outcome at the above AfD. After a decision is made suitable changes can be made, if required.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The AfD has closed with the decision to delete Luke Girgis. I will now edit this article to update material on post-Coptic Soldier career.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:57, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Move
Apologies,, but I started updating this page after following a trail from The Brag and related topics, and it seemed that he is more well-known as a publisher/entrepreneur these days, and could not find anything recent on Coptic Soldier, so just moved it, and have only just thought to look at the talk page. Also needed somewhere to target the oft-quoted Tone Deaf (having written Brag up in Rolling Stone Australia the other day, not really appropriate). Happy to discuss if you think otherwise! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the move nowadays and agree that his time as Coptic Soldier has receded into his early career. Check at Google Trends (here). Have a good one.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:30, 15 September 2023 (UTC)