Talk:Lutheranism

Lutheran view on God the Father
There is no section on Lutheran views on God the Father. Could one or two of you guys please write something roughly the same size as the Catholic/Orthodox/Mormonism/etc. sections there. I could try to do it, but you guys will probably get it right. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Germany
"Lutheranism is a main Protestant denomination in Germany (where it forms about 40% of the country's Protestant population)...". Definitely 40% of the OVERALL population, not of the protestant population!--Severino (talk) 15:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at a subpage to the article it says "Approximately 40% of German Protestants are members of churches belonging to the "Vereinigte Evangelisch-Lutherische Kirche Deutschlands" (VELK). The majority of Protestants belonging to Union Churches of Germany are also members of parishes which are traditionally Lutheran. In Germany there also exists the Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church (SELK), which formed from those opposed to the forced Union with Reformed churches in Prussia. The SELK is a member of the International Lutheran Council (ILC). The SELK is separate from the state churches and has 35,642 baptized members as of 2008." So I believe the 40 % is referring to the 40 % of Protestants who belong to VELK. But there are other Lutherans too, so it´s a somewhat misleading number. Protestants currently make up about 30 % of the total population in Germany. w/r Iselilja (talk) 17:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Lutherans make up the overwhelming majority of Protestants in Germany. These numbers seem to be correct: Evangelical Church in Germany (abbreviated EKD in German) 23.9 mio members out of 25 mio Protestants in Germany (which make about 30% of Germans as you wrote correctly, about the same amount as Catholics). The 40% are definitely a misleading number. I don't know if SELK & VELK are sub-organizations of the EKD.--Severino (talk) 18:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * As I understand from the article about EKD it isn´t per definition Lutheran. Here is what is said about the name: "The German term evangelisch here more accurately corresponds to the broad English term Protestant rather than to the narrower evangelical." I have always believed that a vast majority of Protestants in Germany were Lutherans, but I haven´t found a source for it while searching now. If you have something, you may of course add it to the article if you like. I removed the 40% claim and instead inserted 30% Protestants in Germany which would be the upper limit of Lutherans. w/r Iselilja (talk) 18:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The EKD comprises lutheran and calvinist churches. The confusion comes from the fact that "evangelisch" in german is equivalent to "lutheran". But, "evangelisch" is usually translated as "evangelical" in English although Lutherans are only in exceptional cases "Evangelicals" (which is "evangelikal" in german).--Severino (talk) 19:08, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * To further clarify, indeed the EKD (a federation of regional German protestant churches) comprises lutheran, calvinist (Reformierte) and united (Unierte) churches. The united churches are united lutheran-calvinist. Without having done exact numbers, roughly 50% lutheran, 45% united and 5% calvinist. The exact percentages for "lutherans among German protestants" would depend on whether you count the lutheran-calvinist-united churches as lutheran or not. Note that for most normal Germans (outside the clergy) there is hardly a noticeable difference between the different protestant churches, hence the confusion amongst Germans as well. 2A0A:EF40:205:E301:2457:E66C:BE05:56C1 (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

talk page Luther got saved from Catholicism
It is unlikely that Luther considered himself a Catholic after he nailed his thesis to the door! The edict of worms 1521 or 'the excommunication' was just Catholicism by Catholic priests because in Luther's eyes he was already an ex-Catholic. Marking the statement as dubious.
 * Since there is a citation, you should check the source. I'm pretty sure Luther considered himself a Catholic long after the 95 Theses, which he intended to be the beginning of a debate on how to reform the Church from within. --JFHutson (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

What about the clergy?
I think there should be a section on Lutheran clergy. Are there priests? Nuns? Brothers? Monks? Different orders of clergy? What are they clergy called? Pastors? Rectors? Anything else? Could someone with knowledge start such a section, please? 201.191.106.162 (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Lutheranism by country
For some reason, the map used in this article, omits some Lutheran churches in e.g. African countries. Unfortunatly, I do not know how to compile maps for wikipedia. Should we discontinue using the maps until it is corrected? Or does someone have an explanation for the map being as it is? --Periegetes (talk) 11:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The map has now been replaced with a new one containing all LWF membership data. --Periegetes (talk) 14:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, it is clearly stated in the file's description that it uses LWF membership data. I suppose these African Lutheran churches you're talking about do not belong to LWF. Feel free to replace that map with a map counting all Lutherans all over the world (really hard to get a reliable source for this)-that's why we use LWF estimates as it contains the vast majority of Lutherans (not all of them!!!). Secondly, that map with circles makes it impossible to really determine a country with lots of Lutherans. For example Germany, the big circle inside Europe. One can suppose it refers to Germany, but it is not CLEAR as in that color map I've placed before.Ernio48 (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't you Ernio48 find out about things before you start reversing justified edits by others? Unlike in the old map, the map shows all countries in the LWF membership statistic (including e.g. Ethiopia). If you do not believe that you are free the check it from the original source. Obviously, your knowledge concerning Lutheran churches around the world is too limited for you make some judgements. Please learn more and come back then. Equally, Ernio48 does not have a clue about basic rules of thematic cartography that can be read from any cartography textbook: Absolute figures (like number of people), must always be presented on proporational symbol maps, which will then give a clear and easy visual impression about the actual volume. The Choropleth map is suitable for displaying proportional data such as percentages. If we want to display countries "with lots of Lutherans", we would need to make a choropleth map showing the percentage of Lutherans. I rest my case. I do not engage in edit-warring. It up to others to consider if an erroneous map should really be used. --Periegetes (talk) 15:42, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Feel free to edit the old map. I think we all agree that map with circles does not really show anything to an outsider that came to read the article.Ernio48 (talk) 17:15, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Ernio48: Just talk about yourself, do not generalize on the basis of your own assumptions. --Periegetes (talk) 19:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Well doesn't that sound reasonable to you. Nvm.Ernio48 (talk) 19:43, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

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Too many images sandwiching text
Please see MOS:SANDWICH. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Issue seems to be resolved by now.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Comparison among Protestants
I could've swore there was a table here at one point with the various differences. Either way, just the one-liner of "Protestants vary on salvation" makes the section effectively useless. Maybe bring back the table or remove the section? Vypr (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The table is still there, but it's in a collapsed state by default. If you click on the box labeled "Protestant beliefs about salvation", you'll see it. Indyguy (talk) 00:42, 26 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, thank you. I didn't even see it in the corner there, I'll look into the template it's using and see why it's in that spot. Vypr (talk) 06:20, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Western Hemisphere and Australia
Section labelled with Australia conspicuously missing anything to do with Australia or in turn the LCA. 211.30.189.7 (talk) 07:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you make this page semi protected, thank you
 * I added the Lutheran Church of Australia to the Western Hemisphere and Australia section. As for semi-protection, this page receives a fair amount of vandalism but for now I do not support ongoing page protection. There are not a great deal of active editors covering Lutheran topics. Protecting this page would turn more new editors away.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

unacceptable
STOP making these articles! shorten all this and merge with Martin Luther, or refer to actual churches (they certainly don't call themselves Lutheran in Germany, rather evangelical, and only luther-ish in opposition to more radical sects) 2601:588:8100:E3C0:540B:D123:51BB:2174 (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In the English speaking world, Lutheran is still commonly used. "Lutheran" is not used so much in Germany today, I agree with you about that. The Reformed and Lutheran Churches were forcibly merged during the Nazi era; the new term for the landskirche in general became "Evangelical" because both the Reformed and Lutheran churches had historically used the term Evangelical.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

History
The history section does detail the history of the modern, massive spread of Lutheranism across the globe. It only addresses failed revival movements which is confusing contrasted with the statistics later in the article. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:F192:503E:F2A5:B6F2 (talk) 02:01, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Bias
I've modified multiple statements in this entry that present specific Lutheran viewpoints as facts grammatically. My unnecessary good faith edit was removed by the wonderful editor who helped me, and I've reviewed the article to try to limit it to edits that are actually relevant for the clarification of an objective presentation of Lutheranism. Feel free to modify or remove my edits, all you more experienced editors. I am a historical theologian rather than an experienced editor, so I appreciate your patience as I attempt to improve on this page and other related pages. Ysys9 (talk) 16:14, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is on my watchlist for now so I'll keep tabs on your changes. Unfortunately, the population of expert editors in the Lutheran area isn't what it used to be. Please let me know if you need help finding any details! ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I am aquatinted with Lutheran ministers of various opinions and Luther scholars, so please let me know if I can also be of assistance to your efforts. Ysys9 (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I should note as potentially relevant that I am not a Lutheran, and as such I do not have any bias towards any particular strand of Lutheranism. I am merely aquatinted with many ministers of various religions through my academic endeavors. Thank you again for your assistance and generous offer of help. Ysys9 (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Emmanuel Lutheran in the USA
I’m not sure if Emmanuel Lutheran is big enough to be on the Wiki, but there are a lot of Emmanuel Lutherans in my area. I feel like it should be at least added on to something but I am not sure what exactly. Ohhellothere1 (talk) 01:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Article issues and classification

 * This article has failed the B-class criteria since having been marked as having unsourced statements in 2017. Reassess to C-class. The "Further reading" section has a laundry list of primary sources that appear complicated with a lot of Perspectives. These include the American Lutheran Church (ALC), Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC), Evangelical Lutherans in Mission (ELIM) - forerunner of the AELC. The Lutheran Council in the United States of America, a coordinating advisory organization for the LCMS, ALC, and LCA, the Lutheran Church in America (LCA), which supposedly ceased to exist in 1988 after merging with the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC) forming the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) comprising 65 synods in nine regional offices. There is the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) considered a denomination, and the Lutheran Churches of the Reformation (LCR) an association of Lutheran congregations. There is also the English District of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod (non-geographical) and the Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC). I am not sure how badly I may have messed this up, but then again, it is complicated. Not complicated is LCMC is reportedly the fourth largest Lutheran group in the United States, after the ELCA, the LCMS, and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS). There is also the Norwegian Synod and the Slovak Synod.
 * I think merging some of these articles would allow better flow and ease of reading. -- Otr500 (talk) 08:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure what exactly you think needs to be done. All of the linked articles you refer to are for specific historical or current Lutheran denominations or organizations that are more or less independent of each other; and some of these are quite small. Lutheranism does not have a single head like the Catholic Church has with the pope. As far as the Further reading section is concerned, I would agree that way too many "perspectives" are included for someone reading such a high-level article as this, especially those of the very small groups such as the LCR. Indyguy (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Having had 2,085 editors and 616 watchers I thought a regular editor to the article might happen along. There really is no cause for there to be 28 links with 19 being "Perspectives". I am not familiar with the subject enough and would just choose around 15 of those that include "perspective" from the bottom up and delete them. Also, the two big maps in the "Distribution" subsection could use a review. -- Otr500 (talk) 08:13, 24 February 2023 (UTC)