Talk:Lynn Conway/Archive 1

Meaningless sentence / typo
There is a sentence in the second paragraph "Harry Benjamin treated her". It makes no sense. Someone who knows what was going on -- please fix. William Ackerman 18:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Offensive use of personal pronouns
When talking about or to transsexual people, it is viewed as extremely insulting to not respect the personal pronouns of the acquired gender. Can someone please fix this? Emilykitten 10:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but isn't it inaccurate to refer to a transgender person by their new gender, when describing events that happened before they had their sex-reassignment surgery? In other words, before Lynn Conway had the surgery, shouldn't he be a "he" and then afterwards a "she"? Lynn Conway wasn't born as a woman, after all.User:Anonymous 10:29, 04 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. It might be offensive, disappointing, or whatever to some, but that doesn't matter. It's the truth. A MtF transgender person was a man at one time, and living outwardly as as a man. So for that time in Conway's life, male pronouns are simply more accurate. There's not really any way to argue with that. BuboTitan 18:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, that's the biggest political football in the field at the moment. So some -- very likely including Lynn Conway -- say that she was born with a woman's soul, in a man's body and (in any significant or metaphysical sense) really was a woman from birth (or before), although no one else knew it.  Others -- sexologist J. Michael Bailey, for example -- will say that Conway was born a boy in a boy's body, probably grew up (through no fault of Conway's) to become an adolescent male who got an erotic charge out of crossdressing, and eventually became an autogynephilic transsexual woman (which he describes as a man who wants a woman's body, not as a woman trapped in a man's body).
 * Conway is doubtless utterly furious and insulted by such a description, partly because she wants the right to present her experience in her own way, and partly because Bailey's notion is perceived as being politically dangerous for transsexuals. No matter how accurate the idea is (or isn't), or how supportive Bailey himself is for SRS, the fear is that it will be turned into a justification for denying treatment for TS people.  (Like this:  "Manolo Blahnik shoes aren't medically necessary for a shoe fetishist, and sex reassignment surgery isn't medically necessary for transsexuals.")
 * I don't think that we are going to find agreement on the correct pronouns for Conway's earlier life. There are people firmly on both sides of the question.  I think the article might benefit most by reducing the use of pronouns altogether, and then resolving not to worry about it too much. WhatamIdoing 19:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to dive into the Bailey controversy. That's another issue altogether. But the fact is, earlier in Conway's life, Conway was legally a man, was addressed in public as a man, was living as a man (including being married to a woman and having two kids). I might feel that I'm young at heart, or have a black man's soul, but that doesn't change my legal age or race. Someone keeps reverting this claiming it's "inconsistent with Wikipedia style guidelines" without explaining on the discussion page how that could possibly apply here. Pronouns are not earth-shattering things, but I'm very curious to hear their justification. Until then, I'll just keep undoing their reverts. BuboTitan 10:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you aware that you undid more than just pronoun changes? You should do a diff on your latest edit. WhatamIdoing 16:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * True enough. Some of those were revisions by others that got caught up in undoing changes. Once again, I fixed the pronouns. When someone is legally a man, it is proper to refer to him as "he" (especially when living as a man). If legally a woman, "she". I'll keep reverting this until someone shows me a wiki guideline that says anything different. Also changed "realized he was transexual woman", to "believed he was...". Since Conway is not a psychologist, "realized" seems a little assumptive. BuboTitan 11:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So? Legal rules apply only in legal contexts.  Wikipedia is not one of them.  We can use whatever seems good to a consensus of editors, not what seems good to some administrative law judge. WhatamIdoing 14:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, then what about social contexts? At the time Lynn Conway was legally a man, he was also living as a man, was recognized as a man by his employer, was addressed as "he" by everyone, was married to a woman, had "male" indicated on his birth certificate & driver's license, etc, etc. In short, societal consensus is that Conway was a man at that time, and therefore, it would be strange for wikipedia to argue against this. For example, if I'm writing about the early life of the Pope or a famous general, I'm not going to label them as "his holiness" or "General" during the time of their youth.BuboTitan 20:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, so we should follow Wikipedia's rules for pronouns, which are the same as the AP Style Guide. It says to use female pronouns in this case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyprice (talk • contribs) 15:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's strange that wiki's own page on the AP Stylebook doesn't mention that it is the same as wiki's rules (maybe you should change that then). But assuming you are right, since I'm not going to purchase the AP Syle guide for $17.95, please quote us the relevant passage that says we should call men "she" and women "he". BuboTitan 20:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style

Identity

"This is perhaps an area where Wikipedians’ flexibility and plurality are an asset, and where we would not want all pages to look exactly alike. Wikipedia’s neutral point of view and no original research policies always take precedence. However, here are some nonbinding guidelines that may help: Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyprice (talk • contribs) 19:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If that is your relevant passage, then it's clear that you either haven't been reading or entirely misunderstand this discussion. I happen to agree with that guideline and am following it to the letter. I am using the terms Lynn Conway is using to refer to herself. She refers to herself as a female now, but in her earlier life, she (and presumably everyone else), referred to her as "he" since at that time she was legally a man and living as a man.BuboTitan 23:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

So Kellyprice wants to consistently apply Conway's pronoun of choice to the entire life. BuboTitan wants to use both the pronoun that Conway used to use as well as the pronoun that Conway is currently using. I don't see enough information in the MoS to declare either of these approaches to be inconsistent with style. What needs to happen right now is that the two of you need to knock off this stupid revert war. Go read WP:3RR before you touch that undo button again, okay? WhatamIdoing 04:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Her official biography, which she must have proved, is dispositive as far as I'm concerned. It uses the feminine pronouns when describing her entire life.  Calling someone by a gender they don't want to be called is an insult to a living person, and would raise some serious BLP concerns.  BLP trumps style guidelines anyway, but most style guidelines outside of Wikipedia for serious or professional writing would probably agree.  I've seen this usage for another Wikipedia article too.  At this point given all of the reverts and discussion above I believe BuboTitan is simply being contentious and should be warned not to keep reverting.  Three editors -- four including me now -- have restored the feminine pronouns back to the article that this user wanted to alter.  If this continues the article will end up being edit protected and/or the user will end up blocked.  I see no compromise efforts or common ground on this particular issue.  If BuboTitan really wants to challenge issue I would suggest bringing it up as a broader matter of policy, or using one of the available dispute resolution mechanisms.Wikidemo 10:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, check out User:WhatamIdoing's latest edits. They seem to solve the problem by avoiding pronouns entirely.  A kludge to be sure, but it works.  Good job! Wikidemo 23:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how Conway's biography would be dispositive. Idi Amin might have called himself the King of Scotland, but that doesn't mean it was true. I agree that BLP need to have some leeway, but this is ridiculous. You are "warning" me and threatening me with being blocked, all for simply telling a factual statement. Good luck with that. In early life, Lynn Conway was a man, in legal terms, societal terms, and medical terms. Even Lynn Conway can't argue against this. So what is the problem with the article reflecting that? First duty here should be to the truth. Granted, a few pronouns are not an Earth shattering point, but you are changing the article to reflect something that simply was not true. I plan to bring this up as a matter of wiki policy, but as it is, there is no policy supporting your position, nor do I expect there to be. It would be pretty difficult to insist on addressing people by the titles or statuses they hold currently, when you are talking about events in their past.BuboTitan 17:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * BuboTitan, are there any pronoun usages remaining in the article with which you disagree? Or any other characterizations in this article with which you disagree? -Agyle 06:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, in the first couple paragraphs. I object to using "she/her" pronouns when describing events that happened before Conway had the surgery. Conway was a man at that time, and used "he/him", as did everyone else. Seems like common sense to me, but I'm afraid certain wiki users are allowing their personal political activism to get in the way of the facts here, and keep reverting the article ad nauseum. This sentence, for example, just doesn't make any sense: "She had made an earlier transition attempt in the late 1950s that failed due to the medical climate at the time". Well, if the transition failed, then Conway wasn't a "she" at that time, right? This is just one example, but the pronoun "he" is more appropriate here.BuboTitan 12:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

She wasn't a man. She was a woman with a birth defect. She was aware of it, and was able to eventually have it corrected via hrt and surgery. Gender is due to the way the mind is wired, not the physical body. It is disrespectful to refer to her in male terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyprice (talk • contribs) 16:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Saying "she was a woman with a birth defect" is an opinion, which of course, you are entitled to. But Conway was not aware of it all of his/her life. It's also not entirely accurate to say that the "birth defect" has been corrected, since with current technology, the changes brought by surgery and hrt are largely superficial. Conway will never bear a child as a woman, and would be identified as a man under a hormone or DNA test, for example. But that's another topic. BuboTitan 19:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Being unaware of a birth defect does not mean that it does not exist, however she was aware of her transgender status from childhood. Many women aren't fertile for various reasons; fertility isn't a factor in gender identification. DNA tests are also not definitive. XY doesn't always indicate male or XX female. There are always exceptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellyprice (talk • contribs) 19:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I found and removed two more unnecessary pronouns. Can we compromise on using female pronouns for the events of the transition, when Conway was identifying internally as a woman, dressing like a woman, taking female hormones, acting like a woman, and so forth?  Insisting on the actual hour of genital surgery as the demarcation point seems a little -- intrusive, not to mention gross.  WhatamIdoing 18:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There will be no end to problems associated with picking a demarcation point for a pronoun change when speaking of someone who has had a physiological sex change. Unless we know something about her genetic make-up, unless we have published, accurate, verifiable references from which to make our decision this discusion has no place on this page.  KP Botany 05:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If the discussion has no place on this page, then I'm wondering just where does "KP Botany" think it should go? I think the demarcation line of using he/she should be either: 1)At the point the individual legally had their gender changed, or 2) At the point he/she started outwardly living as a member of the opposite sex. Once again, earlier in life, Conway was living outwardly as a man, and therefore should be addressed as one when speaking about events at that time.BuboTitan 16:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In practice, we have something not very far from a signed statement that Lynn's genetic makeup is either XY or XYY (=non-intersexed male): Conway had perfectly normal fertility pre-transition, and fathered two children (both girls).  Unusual genotypes have disastrous consequences on fertility.  I am aware of no unusual genotypes that would produce both a male phenotype and normal fertility.  Unless you can think of something I've forgotten, then I think we can safely assume that we're talking about a genotypically normal male at birth.  But I do not understand how this has even the smallest impact on which pronouns to use for the time in which Conway was publicly living as a man. WhatamIdoing 06:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess it's that this person was biological, physically, mentally and outwardly male in attitude appearance and by their own use of the masculine pronouns and so there is nothing controversial about calling this person "he" (without quotes) in the earlier parts of the article. I came here to comment because lines like Although she hoped to be allowed to transition on the job, IBM fired Conway in 1968 after she revealed to them that she was transsexual, and was planning on transitioning to a female gender role. make it sound like a female is undergoing gender reassignment to appear as a man. The "revealed she was a transexual" suggests Conway was a female living unbeknownst to those around as a man. That's not the case is it. It's more clear to use masculine pronouns and switch at the point when Conway's colleagues would have been requested to refer to Conway as she/her. Pbhj (talk) 00:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Split references into one reference, one footnote?
It seems to me that the LA Times article serves as a reference for almost the entire article, with the exception of the 2004 Wilson reference cited for a single sentence, and some unsourced information from the last few years. However, they're both listed in a reference section, and the Times article is linked as a footnote, seemingly arbitrarily, to one particular sentence regarding Conway's children. I would suggest creating a Notes section for the reflist template, to contain the 2004 Wilson reference, and changing the Times article from an inline-referenced footnote on a particular sentence to a standard reference in the references section. (My terminology may be off, but hopefully it's understandable.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agyle (talk • contribs) 03:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and made this change, as I noticed the LA Times article link was to a reprint on Conway's personal website, not to the LA Times. The format I used is a very non-standard style, for flexibility in linking and explaining the links. I think technically Conway's reprint should not be linked at all, even though it seems like a reputable reprint, but I'll let others decide how to handle it. -Agyle 07:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced material
Some recent information doesn't include citations. I casually searched news archives using Google (e.g. like this) and can turn up reliable sources saying she's an activist, and a vocal critic of Bailey's, but not that she was a "prominent spokesperson for the rights of transsexual people" or that she was "a leader of a 2003 campaign against" Bailey. I added the Fact tag to the current sentences to allow time for references to be supplied. If they can't be supplied, the wording could be scaled (e.g. change "prominent spokeperson" to "activist") and any number of reliable sources are available.

I also tagged the recent personal information such as her 2006 marriage as unsourced. I didn't check the external link to her personal website, as it's not listed as a reference. I'm not disputing that she did get married, just indicating that a reliable source is needed to corroborate the fact. -Agyle 03:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

BLP and controversy
Re revert of MarionTheLibrarian's edits, Lynn Conway's page on the controversy makes it clear that Dreger and the journal and editor that published her work are principals in the controversy. According to WP:BLP, "The article should document, in a non-partisan manner, what reliable third party sources have published about the subject and, in some circumstances, what the subject may have published about themselves. The writing style should be neutral and factual, avoiding both understatement and overstatement," and "Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources." If you want to add something from the sources who are involved in a dispute with Conway, it needs to be done carefully, encyclopedically, with attribution to who has express what, not via weasel words with a footnote. The obvious strong POV that colors all of MarionTheLibrarian's edits here and in other articles should really disqaulify this editor from adding such interpretations of controversial material to this BLP. Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Plan for after protection expires
Since the page has been protected after our little edit war, we should discuss how to process after the protection expires. At present, the page Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy is not even linked here, and that's where the main discussion of the contentious issues is. Would it be helpful to use a main link or something to there, rather than trying to represent that contentious topic here in the bio (BLP would still apply there, of course). Other suggestions for how to avoid problems we've seen in recent days here? Dicklyon (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ultimately, our impass appears to be whether, to what extent, and how Dreger's recent analysis of the controvery(ies) should be included on Conway's page. From the point of view of providing readers with a complete encyclopedic entry, the question is, 'Should readers be made aware of the existence of her history' or (alternatively phrased), 'If a person reads a page about Conway that does not mention Dreger and discovers the Dreger history through google (for example), will the person believe that the Conway page is incomplete?'


 * It is my belief that a Conway page that does not mention Dreger's history would be incomplete (likely leading future readers to add Dreger's history to it). When the Dreger article was scheduled to appear in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the editor (Zucker) called for an open commentary, so that anyone who wanted could have their comments published along with Dreger's in the very same issue of the journal.  Many people, both those agreeing and those disagreeing with Dreger, submitted comments, and all were printed.  Because your previous edits didn't mention the commentaries and because commentaries came online only a few days ago, I assume you haven't read them yet.  (If you do not have access to a university or medical library, I would be happy to email the commentaries to you.)


 * I suggest that, instead of referencing only the Dreger article itself (which is what I had been doing), we reference the entire issue of the Archives >including< all the commentaries. That way, readers are alerted to Dreger's summary >and< the criticisms of the history.  I am thinking of something along the lines of:
 * A history of the controversy was published by Alice Dreger, an historian an intersex activist, in which she concluded that Conway coordinated a smear campaign against Bailey. That history, along with commentaries both agreeing and disagreeing with that allegation, appears in a special issue of the Archives of Sexual Behavior.
 * That makes the entry complete without the entry declaring that Dreger's conclusion is correct, leaving the final opinion to the interested reader.
 * —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 20:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that Conway's involvement in this controversy be mentioned and all sides made accessible. The easiest way to do this is with a brief summary and link to the full article.  As for using the "archives" as source for more info, that's problematic, since, at least as Conway describes the controversy, the archives is at the center of the cabal, with its editor Zucker being deep in the argument (he has been a Blanchard co-author, so that seems plausible); and Dreger represented one side of the controversy on an NPR radio program, so doesn't seem like she can be considered a neutral analyst/historian as she and the archives want to portray her; using the achives to refer to Dreger as "scholars" is where your POV shows too much; it's OK to have a POV, but not OK for it to show up so much in articles you edit.  You are correct that I was not aware of and have not read the commentaries; I've read very little on this topic, and have no expertise or insight to offer; but I can see POV pushing clearly enough without that.  Dicklyon (talk) 20:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I can certainly appreciate that I would seem to have an agenda—after all, on this and on related issues everyone does appear to have one. I can only reiterate that my interest is in completeness; any bias I seem to have for one side is because there is a dearth of information about only one side. If you can think of a way for me to demonstrate to you that any opinion I have is based on and only on the available information, I will happily volunteer for the test. Otherwise, we will have to agree to disagree.

Although I am indeed new to wiki, you can see over the past few days that I am able and willing to provide well-sourced information on a range of topics in sexuality. I have substantial...er, library resources, to contribute whereas most editors rely on information already available on the web.

As for the neutrality of Dreger/Archives/Conway, that's an odd situation. Any perusal of Conway's or Andrea James' sites will show that they have made accusations of everyone who has ever said a negative thing about their side or a positive thing about Bailey's. They have long written that they believe there exists a conspiracy of well-placed transphobic academics. Over time, they have added to that list anyone (including other openly transsexual folk) who does not agree with them. The difficulty now is that there exists no one remaining to be called neutral at the standard you seem to be asking for. People Conway agrees with are called "recognized experts" on her site, and people she disagrees with are called "discredited" (despite any evidence in either direction). When Dreger began her history (in which she included her initial opinions), she was as neutral as a person can be shown to be; it was only because of her conclusions that Conway/James and others started going after her, forcing Dreger to mount a defence, making it >seem< like she could not have been neutral to begin with. In her history, Dreger does indeed find fault with some of Bailey's behaviors, and on her website, Dreger finds fault with Zucker. If that doesn't denote someone capable of seeing the grey where everyone else is casting characters in black or white, I don't know what would.

That said, I think we have what the only realistic solution is. Yes?—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 21:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not an unusual situation to find people completely polarized over an issue. I am not suggesting that Conway is being neutral or objective, either.  But some of your edits are very misleading with things like "scholars say" supported by a Dreger article in the archives.  I find it amazing that you are claiming to not have an agenda in this yourself, based on the tone of your edits, but maybe... Dicklyon (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits
I did a lot of work on the career section, refs, etc., which was large undone by Andrea Parton's edit, probably due to an improperly handle edit conflict. I've tried to repair it, incorporating what she added about activism, and the new section heads, but I may have missed something, so take a look. This also involved taking out MarionTheLibrarian's latest, which I consider as bogus anyway, since Marion and the author she likes to quote are both obviously very biased participants in the controversy they describe; I've withdrawn from editing the BBL controversy page because it is hopelessly partisan, but there's no reason to let that overflow into this bio. Dicklyon (talk) 00:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What you believe to be biased is irrelevant. The information in my edits fit all WP policies on verifiability, reliable sources, and bio's of living person.  You also (at least tacitly) agreed to those changes in our prior discussion, in which I participated in good faith.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you're trying to say about a tacit agreement. My suggestion was to keep the controversial statements by principals in the controversy on the controversy page, rather than have Conway's enemies adding such stuff to her bio.  It is remarkable to me that you are unable to admit that you too are a participant in, or a spokesperson for, this attack on Conway by the "archives" side of the dispute.  I am not taking sides like you are, justing trying to keep the principles in the dispute from dumping on the bio pages, which should be more about the actual person, their accomplishments, and what they're known for, as represented by neutral third-party sources, not by participants like Dreger and you.  I see you have a new account now, as BarbaraSue, doing more of the same.  Please just stop. Dicklyon (talk) 01:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Clearly Dicklyon does not want Dreger's piece on here. I understand why an advocate for Conway would feel this way. The assertion that Dreger is "biased" is unfounded. Dreger makes it very clear in her paper that going into it she expected to find that Bailey was not blameless. She was an acquaintance of Conway's, and they had not been unfriendly before Dreger asked for Conway's cooperation. Furthermore, the solution that Dicklyon and Marion apparently agreed to (but which Dicklyon is not adhering to) refers any interested person to both Dreger's piece and to the commentaries, many of which were negative.BarbaraSue (talk) 01:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What agreement are you referring to? Maybe I'm going senile, so I need a reminder.  And this claim of unbiased coming from you certainly carries no weight, given your edit pattern that's all about painting one side white and the other black.  Dicklyon (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And I am not BarbaraSue. The check-users page is at your disposal. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 01:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is not. And the statement by  that an admin can verify that he is not you is also not true.  It is clear that you are careful enough not to use the same IP address, but unless you both let us know who you are, we have no way to know.  But it doesn't really matter.  As long as both of you exhibit the same editing pattern, pushing the POV of the editors and authors of the archives who have a beef with Conway and others, I might as well think of you as one and the same. Dicklyon (talk) 01:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Protected
I've reprotected the article for 30 days due to continued edit warring after the last protection ended. Work this out using the dispute resolution process. Dreadstar †  03:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've tried the WP:RfC, but didn't get any comments. I'm up for mediation.  Anyone else?  Dicklyon (talk) 05:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Dick, I might have replied to your RfC if it had been somewhat more specifically phrased. As it stands, it seemed more like a "request to have several other editors put a lot of time and effort into sorting this out," and while these pages are on my usual watchlist, I'm not willing to put much more than ten minutes a week into them.  If you can identify a specific, small, separable issue, then you might get a better response.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The specific issue is whether the "history" by Dreger, published in Zucker's Archives of Sexual Behavior, can be treated as if it is a neutral source. I say cite the NYT, and summarize the controversy with points supported by that more neutral source, but don't site the partisan material by the cabal who have taken one side in a big messy controversy; citing that here in a way that represents it as a neutral source is the main tactic of MarionTheLibrarian and now her meat puppet BarbaraSue, here and in related articles such as BBL controversy.  I have no problem referring to the controversy; just problem with letting spokespersons against Conway have their POV presented here as neutral; if you don't know that Dreger is a spokesperson against Conway, check her blogs, such as this radio show transcript where Dreger teams with the Bailey to blast Conway.  Dreger has been blasted for bypassing peer review of her "history", publishing it through the archives edited by Bailey's buddy Zucker.  In summary, can we enforce WP:BLP here? Dicklyon (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolving May, 2008 edit war
Marion, your edits have gone beyond just very POV. You're even distorting the contents of sources like NYT now. Please consider how wikipedia works. In the long run, your efforts to push a point of view will come to nothing. There's no sense make a lot of work for everyone in the process. Slow down, do some more neutral editing, learn the process, and contribute, instead of disrupting by pushing a narrow point of view in an area that you are obviously much too close to. Dicklyon (talk) 21:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Dreadstar †  07:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest reading the Biographies of living persons policy and all the related Reliable sources policies and guidelines. I've protected Lynn Conway and Andrea James to stop the edit warring.  Please work it out and find consensus with the other editors on the article's talk pages.  Dreadstar  †  07:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I am hoping you can provide some input to prevent a repeated edit war. Last week, you (correctly) protected the Lynn Conway page, which was devolving into an edit war between me and user:Dicklyon. He and I discussed the issue on the talk page and came to an agreement on how best to resolve the situation. The protection expired, and I edited the page in the manner to which Dicklyon and I agreed. However, he has now backed out of that agreement/consensus and is reverting everything that any other editor changes on that page. Any guidance or intervention would be greatly appreciated.

Help me, Dreadstar-Kenobi. You're my only hope. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 01:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll need to pursue the steps in the dispute resolution process, such as getting a third opinion, starting a request for comment or through formal mediation. Dreadstar  †  04:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A useful step would also be to respond to my question when I asked what agreement you are referring to. Anyway, on the talk page I mentioned that I'm up for mediation; if you are, too, say so, and we can set it up (formal or informal).  It's a step that can only be undertaken when the interested parties all agree.  Read about it and get back to us.  BarbaraSue, you, too. Dicklyon (talk) 06:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am entirely amendable to mediation. BarbaraSue will have to speak for herself. The conversation leading to what I believed to be an agreement was:
 * At 20:30, 25 May 2008, I wrote "I suggest that, instead of referencing only the Dreger article itself (which is what I had been doing), we reference the entire issue of the Archives >including< all the commentaries." I also suggested this text:


 * A history of the controversy was published by Alice Dreger, an historian an intersex activist, in which she concluded that Conway coordinated a smear campaign against Bailey. That history, along with commentaries both agreeing and disagreeing with that allegation, appears in a special issue of the Archives of Sexual Behavior.


 * At 20:40, 25 May 2008, Dicklyon wrote "I agree with you that Conway's involvement in this controversy be mentioned and all sides made accessible. The easiest way to do this is with a brief summary and link to the full article.", which is just what my suggested text did.


 * In order to double-check that we were indeed agreed, at 21:37, 25 May 2008, I wrote "I think we have what the only realistic solution is. Yes?"


 * At 23:29, 25 May 2008, Dicklyon responded by reiterating why he believed I was biased, but did not address my text. Because  silence counts as assent and because Dicklyon did not provide any other suggestions, I left it at that.

When the protection expired, I put that text into the Conway page (including a summary and a link to the entire article) and put a note on Dicklyon's talk page indicating I had done so However, Dicklyon removed the text we discussed and replaced it with his own text that he had not previously shared, that we did not discuss, and did not provide the link to the full article. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 14:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It is regrettable that I was not more explicit in my disagreement in this edit, or that you interpreted your edit that you represented as consensus as doing something like I suggested. But thanks for pointing out what you were referring to.  I was not silent in reaction; rather, I fixed it with a main link like I had proposed and asked you what you were referring to.  The "brief summary" that you included ("A history of the controversy was published by Alice Dreger, an historian and intersex activist, in which Dreger concluded that Conway coordinated a smear campaign against Bailey; that history, along with commentaries both agreeing and disagreeing with that allegation, appears in a special issue of the Archives of Sexual Behavior.") is completely one-sided, and consistent all of your other POV-pushing edits, especially since you know that Dreger has gone public one side of the debate, and the editor of the archives, Zucker is also a proponent of that side.  You are being quite disingenuous here. Dicklyon (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Experts have every right to hold and express opinions on the subjects in which they have expertise. Both Dreger and Zucker have long histories of publishing in high quality professional outlets in the relevant areas. Whether you think that any given expert has a bias for a particular view is irrelevant. When opinions and debates reach the level of being printed in high quality outlets, such as the Archives and the NYTimes, they meet all the requirements for inclusion in WP. Whether you think that a peer reviewed journal should be disqualified is irrelevant.

Whether I misinterpreted your words/silence or whether you entered the discussion in bad faith is a judgment that only external readers can make.

I am ready to begin the mediation process when you are. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not in a position to judge whether the Archives of Sexual Behavior is a "high quality" outlet; this controversy is my only exposure to it, and from what I see, I would have to conclude not. Certainly, it is not in the same camp with the New York Times.  As you know, its editor Kenneth Zucker has extreme positions on issues such as "Gender Identity Disorder" that a priori put him at odds with much of the TS community.  From this base, neutral commentary can not come.  So when you represent their side of the controversy, it needs to be as a side, not as a neutral. Dicklyon (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it incredible that Dicklyon insists that the editor of the preeminent sexology journal (Zucker) and the eminent historian (Dreger) were biased, prior to findings. There is no evidence of this, and if Dreger concluded (and Zucker published) results unfavorable to Conway, the most parsimonious explanation is that she did so because said results are correct. Conway's role in this controversy is very important to her career, and it generated both the New York Times article and entire issue of the prestigious Archives of Sexual Behavior. MarionTheLibrarian has tried to refer both to Dreger's target article and to the critiques of that article. That seems fair.BarbaraSue (talk) 15:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And I find it incredible that you're so quick to respond here; why is MarionTheLibrarian's talk page on your watch list, if you've never edited here? Or did someone email you about it (since I don't see any communication via your talk page)?  You've been very careful, you two, to abide by the letter of the rules when you can, without respecting the spirit of cooperative NPOV wikipedia editing and things like BLP.  As to Zucker and Dreger being "eminent", that's within their own domain/cabal, which you are a part of.  Dreger has gone public on NPR, with Bailey, to blast Conway and others; having joined the debate, on the side of the sexology cabal, that being the only place, probably, that would publish such a one-sided "history", she has given up the possibility of being taken seriously as a neutral commentator.  That's why I keep saying to reference the New York Times article instead of Dreger if you want to neutrally represent the controversy via reliable and unbiased sources.  Every one of your edits is about making Conway and McClosky on the one side look worse, and the "sexologists" on the other side look better; your pretence at NPOV is way too feeble; can you at least try harder not to look so biased? Dicklyon (talk) 15:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

By Dicklyons logic, an article about the Holocaust is biased if it makes the Nazis look worse than the Jews. Give support for the idea that Dreger is "biased" rather than reporting what happened. MarionTheLibrarian has repeatedly tried to refer to both the Dreger target article and the commentaries on the article, some of which are critical of Dreger.BarbaraSue (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for twisting my logic into nonsense. Dicklyon (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * One interpretation of Godwin's law - the first person in a debate to resort to Nazi comparisons "automatically loses" said debate. Xmoogle (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * On Apr 21, 2003, Lynn Conway wrote that TMWWBQ "will in time be viewed as very analogous to the Nazi propaganda films about Jews in WWII."
 * —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Haha! Sounds good to me.  Conway loses that debate.  And BarbaraSue loses this one. Dicklyon (talk) 19:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I have finished reading the mediation rules. Before formal mediation can begin, less formal methods need to be attempted. The third opinion option is meant for disagreements between only two people. The request for comment is unlikely to garner comments from anyone not already watching the Conway page. So, the 'mediation cabal' appears the most appropriate (to me). To start that process, the Medcab-request has to be added to the talk page of the relevant topic. So, I am relocating the above conversation to the Conway talk page, and adding that template to it. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 16:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree to this plan. Dicklyon (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Archives of sexual behavior
I was asked for an opinion just of the standing of this journal: In the Web of Science Journal citation Reports, Archives of Sexual Behavior, published by Springer, one of the two leading commercial scientific publishers, ranks 15th out of the 86 journals in the field of clinical psychology with an impact factor of 2.198. It therefore is beyond much question a high ranking clinical psychology journal, as judged by clinical psychologists. There does not seem to be any specialty journal in the subject that has a higher ranking or reputation; the next ranking specialized journal, Journal of Sex Research has an impact factor of 1.149. This is referring to the journal in general; the quality of individual articles in it will of course vary. I suppose its obvious that there are many schools of though in psychology, and people in one school do not necessarily think highly of those from other scholarly traditions. But I see no reason not to quote it, even in a context of BLP, I consider it as highly reliable a source as you will get in this subject. Further, I think Marion's wording for the controversy seems reasonably objective. DGG (talk) 02:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, DGG. I appreciate the details you've provided.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for mediation



 * I made some minor edits at the request, as I felt that it misrepresented the core of the issue substantially. Please let me know if you disagree. Dicklyon (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I made more explicit how neutrality and appropriateness (for lack of a better word) are related. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 19:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. We still need approval of the other participants before mediation can commence. Dicklyon (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Lynn Conway Mediation
I've accepted the 2008-06-01 Lynn Conway mediation case. Please feel free to visit the page and comment there. BrownHornet21 (talk) 00:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So wasn't there an outcome of this mediation? The current page does not reflect that.ProudAGP (talk) 23:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The outcome was that user:Dicklyon and I agreed not to edit the controversial pages: The Man Who Would Be Queen or Blanchard, Bailey, Lawrence Theory Controversy, nor to edit the controversy-section of related WP pages. You and everyone else, however, are free to edit as you like; any interference from Dicklyon or me will be limited to the talk pages. — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I am going to update the section on Conway's role in the controversy regarding Bailey's book. I do not believe that any of the proposals by Dicklyon or Marionthelibrarian are sufficiently detailed. Conway leads her hugely popular website with a large section attacking Bailey, Dreger, and Zucker. It hardly seems undue weight to explain what the controversy is about, including both sides, rather than merely mentioning that there is a controversy.ProudAGP (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Anybody home?
Is there anybody neutral watching this article? User:MarionTheLibrarian (James Cantor) and I had an agreement to limit the BBL controversy stuff to a brief mention and a link to the relevant article, and then agreed to not engage in further editing that section. Now User:ProudAGP has taken Cantor's place as the pusher of the one side of the controversy, re-introducing a lot of negative POV into this bio. I reverted the obvious hack, and will have to do so again if nobody else is willing to take a sensible position and protect this article from WP:BLP violations. It is simply irresponsible to introduce Dreger's interpretation of these events without balancing with the other side, and this is not the best place to do it. Dicklyon (talk) 03:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Until such time as somebody shows up here to control the wild BLP violations of User:ProudAGP, I'll just revert its edits back to the original compromise state. Dicklyon (talk) 15:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not clear what you're objecting to. Is this just a WP:DUE issue, or is there some specific complaint?  (Note that I've only read the most recent version.)  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a combination of balance and weight. If we're going to say more here about the controversy, it will need to be better balanced, and there's nobody here to balance ProudAGP's biased viewpoint (he/she is apparently a proud autogynephile, and therefore has a viewpoint rather more on the Bailey side than on the Conway side, as is clear from its recent edits here and elsewhere).  Furthermore, Cantor and I had an agreement in principle to keep the section small and link to the page about the controversy; we never converged on the exact wording details, but to now have one biased editor pouring in so much undue weight with somewhat biased viewpoint pretty much tears up the basis for our agreement.  Dicklyon (talk) 05:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well this seems like a problem. I have to agree with you that this section of the article needs more neutrality, but maybe the section shouldn't be too short. And if ProudAGP is a "proud autogynephile", then they need to remember that just because they fit the BBL theory, not every trans woman does, and that such an assumption would be horribly unencyclopedic, and could lead to some serious POV problems in their edits. However, not having heard this firsthand from ProudAGP, I shall make no assumptions about their gender/surgical status/psych diagnosis or whatever. Xmoogle (talk) 12:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your recent minor edits, which at least give it a bit of balance. The phrase "and all supporters of Blanchard's model" is not supportable in sources, I think, so should be removed.  And there's an extra period after a ref.  Other than that, it's not too bad, but more weight than I thought we had converged on.  Dicklyon (talk) 16:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually hadn't noticed that part, and yes, the phrase is both problematic and redundant - if Lynn Conway disagrees with Blanchard's model, then it logically follows that she disagrees with others who also follow that model, therefore the phrase is redundant regardless of it's accuracy. I'm not necessarily 100% happy with the version I created, however I was attempting to reach a suitable compromise, therefore my first edit has mostly been a cautious nudge. I shall reread, and make some minor changes, to at least fix the errors you have pointed out. I appreciate your input in this matter, and would also appreciate the input of the others involved in this issue, though they currently seem to be more focused on criticising you than on discussing the article itself. To the two users who seem to have a major problem with Dickylon's version (without naming any names, as I'm sure you two know who you are and I'm not trying to cause more conflict or point fingers), it's not accurate to continue blaming the entire problem on Dickylon as the alternate version also has POV problems. A better use of your energy and time would be to talk here about finding a consensus and a version that we can all agree is NPOV and accurate. Xmoogle (talk) 17:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. One thing that I've noticed with these continual reversions back and forth is that there's two versions of the first sentence:
 * "Since outing herself, Conway has been a transgender rights activist."
 * and
 * "Since outing herself, Conway has worked to protect and expand the rights of transgender people."
 * Now, it may just be that this sentence has been an unnoticed part of these edit conflicts, but just in case the wording does matter here, I'm asking about it. To me, they both essentially say the same thing - though the second version seems a little more verbose and descriptive, hence it's the version I left in in my edits. So, does anyone actually have any objections to either version of that sentence? I'm actually going to alter it to "rights of transgendered people", since that seems grammatically correct to me, though I'd still like to know if anyone has any issues either way with that sentence. Xmoogle (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am perfectly happy to discuss such issues on the talk page, and I believe it is a mischaracterization to imply that 'everyone is to blame' when only Dicklyon is repeatedly hitting the revert button and declaring himself the arbitor of who and what is biased and what may and may not stay on the page. There is a reason that he, and only he, has been repeatedly blocked for edit warring.  To ignore that is to leave an elephant in the room.  If ProudAGP and I can (and have) discussed pages with Jokestress without a single edit war, we can discuss pages with anyone...well, almost anyone.
 * — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, James, you miss my point. I'm saying that blame and pointing fingers is *irrelevant*, a stress causing waste of emotional energy, and something that will not get matters resolved. There *are* POV issues with this section currently, and Dickylon is not the only one to hold this opinion, as I'm trying to edit the section to balance it better as well. What I was saying is that this continual bickering about who's in the right and who's in the wrong entirely fails to address the main issue - fixing the problems with the article - and that while this bickering is not valuable contribution, an actual mature, grown-up discussion *would* be valuable. Is that any more clear? Xmoogle (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Your point is entirely clear to me; I merely disagree with it. My opinion is that it is the treatment of symptoms that wastes time when one ignores the actual disease.
 * — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Treating someone disagreeing with you as a "disease"? While a part of me is unfortunately tempted to make a comment regarding the typical attitude towards criticism of Clarke Institute doctors, I'm going to try my best to be civil here and assume good faith. After all, perhaps you were referring to the conflict itself as a "disease". If so, the only rational way to "treat" said "disease" is for us to discuss and agree upon what this page should say. It's a talk page for a wikipedia article - a place to discuss improving the article, not a place to point fingers and have playground arguments about who "started it". We all seem to have a problem agreeing on the correct way to neutrally portray this situation, and unless we can deal with that problem like adults, it's not going to get fixed in a way that's beneficial to the article. Other than that, I question the wisdom of applying your psychologist's habits to Wikipedia editing, or at least the wisdom of using such language (disease, symptoms, etc) in these discussions... you may inadvertantly give the impression that you believe our disagreements with you are rooted in childhood trauma :) More seriously, such language is rather ambiguous, and can be taken in many unfortunate ways. Xmoogle (talk) 18:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I apologize if my intent was not clear: My intended analogy was that edit-warring was a symptom of Dicklyon's participation. (And my behavior is my own, not that of my colleagues.  To ascribe the behavior of an individual to an entire group is the very meaning of prejudice.)  Finally, for the record, I do not work in the gender clinic.  It's in a separate department...although I have filled in for someone who called in sick.
 * — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 18:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As an example, the phrase "Most fundamentalist Christians are anti-homosexual" would be ascribing behaviour to an entire group, but not prejudice, as the statement is factually correct. As for you personally, I do not have the highest opinion of the Clarke Institute's current high-level staff, and if I'm completely honest, while I try not to judge people on their associates the behaviour I've seen from you makes me very wary of you. However, this is not a relevant discussion for this talk page, and while I'd be quite happy to point out gaping logical holes in the theory your Institute promotes in another medium (such as email, instant messenger, etc), it would not be appropriate for here. Now, Dicklyon may have gone about things the wrong way, but I do personally believe that he had good intentions - I think he truly believes that part of the intended agreement was that that short version of the controversy section was intended to remain. From reading through it myself, that is certainly what is said, that the page here should only have a brief overview of the controversy and link to the main relevant pages. I do not believe that Dicklyon is intentionally causing edit wars, but attempting to do his best on what was a rather tricky situation. And since both of you, *and* ProudAGP, have now been told not to edit this section, I'm trying to edit the section in a way that's fair to neutrality and not biased towards either side, no matter what my opinions on the actual issues are. So, James, do you actually have any suggestions regarding the section's contents, or will you make comments about further edits I may make to make the section briefer? As I'd really prefer to do this with input from both sides. Xmoogle (talk) 19:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Dicklyon's wild accusations of BLP violations
Where to start.... First of all, there have been no "BLP violations." The edit that I made on the Conway page (which will be restored shortly) is accurate and fair. Dicklyon clearly has the goal of keeping any mention of the Bailey controversy to a minimum. (Those familiar with the facts of that case will understand why Dicklyon, Conway's friend and unofficial Wikipedia editor, wish to keep it off.) Dicklyon and Marionthelibrarion never reached an agreement about the precise wording of an edit, and even if they had, it would not bind WP editors forever. (If I am wrong, please refer me to the WP rule that says otherwise.) The administrator who concluded that Conway is primarily known for her engineering contributions was mistaken, I think. Google Conway and her second hit is her transsexualism page. I think that a good analogy is the page of William Shockley. Much more distinguished scientifically than Conway (he did win a Nobel Prize), he still has a not-small section of his page devoted to his late life controversy, in his case speculating about race differences in intelligence. Conway has been accused of worse, in my opinion (e.g., making up false charges against another scientist in order to silence him). Note that my edits on Conway's page stop far short of taking a side on this issue.ProudAGP (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And unless you can cite that Dickylon is "Conway's friend and unofficial Wikipedia editor", you epically fail the "assume good faith" guideline. You know, maybe you two should try talking *to* each other, not *at* each other, this is how really dumb arguments get started here. Xmoogle (talk) 17:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Dicklyon has never hid his relationship with Conway. If you google their names, you will find him mentioned on Conway's site, and Dicklyon acknowledged such the same here on WP. I can track down the diff's, if you like. Whether Dick's claims to revert on the Conway page what he believes to be BLP violations constitute being an 'unofficial WP editor' is open for interpretation. — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 17:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You're missing my main point - you're both talking about each other on this talk page, but not talking to each other to try and resolve this, instead you're getting into an edit war. Edit wars are bad, as is lack of communication. Xmoogle (talk) 18:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, that wasn't the original person replying, nevermind. Xmoogle (talk) 18:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the problem: we have only one editor, with a bias professed right in its handle "ProudAGP", who is editing this section, since James Cantor (another highly involved and highly biased person) and I have agreed to leave it alone. That can't work. It's better to leave the section small, with link to the controversy, than to fill up the bio with biased criticisms. BLP violations are negative or critical statements not well supported by reliable refs. Such things as "Conway was a principal figure...", "Some feel that Conway's investigation was seriously biased..." for example. And the understated "Dreger's article was published alongside 23 commentaries, including some critical of Dreger" when in fact a large majority were critical of Dreger. Until another editor steps forward to balance ProudAGP, there is really no choice but to back out this biased editor's changes. I'll hold off a day or two, and see if help arrives; if not, I'll back it out again. Dicklyon (talk) 04:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

No, here's the problem: We have only one editor, Dicklyon (who has previously worked for Lynn Conway), who has been blocked three times for edit warring (including on this page), started yet a fourth edit war (this time with ProudAGP), and not only violated his mediated agreement with James Cantor not to touch the controversy section of this page, but also is declaring his intent to do so once again despite being told by an admin (DGG) that he should not be doing any such thing. Throughout these discussions, edit wars have occurred when and only when Dicklyon was involved: Despite having heated conversations, there have been no edit wars among ProudAGP, James Cantor, Jokestress, Andrea Parton, Hfarmer, nor any of the other people who edit the trans and related pages (at least, not in the few months I have been on wiki). Personally, I do not believe it is difficult to identify the common denominator among the edit wars. For reference, here is the agreement that Dicklyon and I made with each other not to edit the controversy section of the Conway page, but which Dicklyon has declared he will simply violate as he sees fit. If anyone believes that Dicklyon, and not the result of this talk page, should be deciding which of ProudAGP's (or anyone else's) edits should remain, please raise your hand. — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 13:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * And if anyone believes Cantor's characterization of the history of these controversies, please raise your hand, too. Dicklyon (talk) 22:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Condensing the controversy section
Alright, in an attempt to separate discussions of edit wars and who should/shouldn't be editing this section from discussions of how this article should be written, I've created a new talk page section here to discuss my attempts to shorten this section, since I agree with DDG's statement that "The main article on the controversy is Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory controversy. that's where to put the details. The others should refer to it, instead of repeating it". So, the first *major* edit I'm going to make is this - removing "Northwestern University conducted an investigation into some of these accusations, and while the university did not release the results of that investigation, their Vice President for Research stated "The allegations of scientific misconduct made against Professor J. Michael Bailey do not fall under the federal definition of scientific misconduct."" and replacing it with "These accusations were investigated by Northwestern University, however, no official action was taken against Bailey". This shortens things significantly, and I believe is still accurate and detailed enough for an overview. If anyone has suggestions or objections to my edits, I'd love to hear them. Xmoogle (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help, it is very appreciated. Let me see if I can clean up things a bit further. BrownHornet21 (talk) 00:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with DGG and Xmoogle and believe the BBL controversy page is the place to flesh out all details of the issue, rather than rehashing things here. I went a bit further than Xmoogle and shortened the section.  My edit reflects the section prior to ProudAGP's edits, plus a sentence that directs the reader right to the BBL controversy if they wish to learn more.  Any future edits to the controversy section really, really, really should be discussed here on the talk page and gain some form of consensus before any inclusion into the article. BrownHornet21 (talk) 02:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me also say I don't have a problem with this section modified by Xmoogle (and did a very good job with it): "Conway began an investigation that eventuated in a number of accusations against Bailey, both scientific and ethical. These accusations were investigated by Northwestern University, however, no official action was taken against Bailey by the university. "
 * ...but think that, since it is a "post-mediation" addition, it needs to be discussed and agreed upon here prior to inclusion in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownHornet21 (talk • contribs) 02:21, 8th August, 2008 (UTC)


 * That seems fair and sensible. Anyone else have anything to say about this? Xmoogle (talk) 05:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The revision as it currently stands on the page is acceptable to me with the stipulation I will get to in a moment. Please do not change it along the lines suggested above, adding reference to Conway's accusations to Bailey without also referring to the very well supported allegations by Dreger that Conway's accusations were bogus. (These were supported by a lengthy peer-reviewed article in sexology's best journal and a New York Times article.) It is also not known whether any official action was taken against Bailey. Seriouisly, the version being discussed is much worse than what is now on the page. So please do not use it.

The stipulation I have is that it is not fair to have such a cursory treatment of this controversy on Conway's page while Bailey's page has a lengthy one. I therefore will lobby to change Bailey's page along the same lines. Furthermore (not a stipulation but an intention), I disagree that the discussion belongs on the BBL controversy page. That page is awful, and for reasons I will delineate when I propose various changes, it should not exist. The relevant controversy history is already on The Man Who Would Be Queen page. Since the present version links there, it is fine even if I am successful getting the controversy page deleted.ProudAGP (talk) 14:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment. I agree that if Bailey's page also has BLP violations, then Bailey's page needs to be addressed.  At any rate, "Two wrongs make a right" shouldn't be the ultimate solution. BrownHornet21 (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree also with ProudAGP's intention to shorten the discussion on the Bailey page and get rid of the BBL controversy page, which is a wasteland. The controversy is best covered in one place, and The Man Who Would Be Queen is probably the best place.  However, it will be important to make sure that ProudAGP is not doing it alone, due to a certain professed POV that conflicts with that other others. Dicklyon (talk) 22:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * See? Now that we're all talking in a civilised fashion, things are getting fixed. Anyway, it does seem consistent that The Man Who Would Be Queen should be the place for the full discussion of the controversy, from both sides, and that both this page and Bailey's should only have a brief outline of things. Although I must ask ProudAGP something - was Dreger's article really "supported" by the sexology journal (which to say was the best would be POV), or merely published? Given that it was published alongside many critical commentaries, I'd personally believe the latter to be true. Regarding "no official action", what I'd shortened it to was "no official action was taken against Bailey by the university", which seemed an accurate way to summarise both "Northwestern University conducted an investigation ... and while the university did not release the results of that investigation, (they) said, "The allegations of scientific misconduct made against Professor J. Michael Bailey do not fall under the federal definition of scientific misconduct."", and that other pages I've read about this issue state that while Bailey retired/resigned, both he and the university denied that said retirement/resignation was due to this controversy. Now maybe there was some lesser action taken against him, I don't know, but since that part has been removed from this page anyway, it's really only a concern on the main page about the controversy. As for the BBL controversy page, I do believe that due to how much controversy exists on that topic, it does need to be covered - either in the main BBL theory article, or if it should get too long, summarised there and split off into it's own page (which appears to be how it's handled right now). The BBL controversy page as it stands now, however, is not really written in the best way and it would take major cleanup (probably of the "blank the page and start again" variety) to make it encyclopedic. Depending on how much content there is truly relevant, it may be able to simply go in a controversy section of the BBL theory page. Other than that, I can't see any other problems except for the one in the discussion below, but I'll reply to that there :) Xmoogle (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

One minor quibble: the phrase "since outing herself" seems rather loaded, as if this were an active or publicity-seeking event; in reality, she came out quietly, gradually, to various levels of friends and colleagues over time. The phrase "since coming out" might reflect this subtle difference better. Dicklyon (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I also dislike "since outing herself." Personally, I find "coming out" and its cognates to be too informal for an encyclopedia. A more professional expression would be appropriate, such as "since openly acknowledging..." or "since disclosing her transexuality..." — James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 22:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I agree that "since coming out" is better. It doesn't seem too informal to me, and I feel the suggested alternatives above don't feel right to me. They seem unwieldy, "openly acknowledging" almost makes it sound as if she'd been denying it before, and "since disclosing her transsexualism" makes me think "disclosing to who?". Perhaps some other alternative exists? Xmoogle (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Tone
Recent edits have introduced at least one sort of flowery phrase, "While struggling with life in a male role..." Doesn't "While living as a man" or "Before transitioning from male to female" or some other plainer phrase sound more, well, encyclopedic? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounding more encyclopedic wasn't my goal there. I was trying to convey something of the story as I read it in the cited source.  Take a look, and then we can discuss it. Dicklyon (talk) 06:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounding encyclopedic is necessary: See WP:TONE.  Wikipedia does not want to reproduce the style of The Los Angeles Times Magazine, or any other magazine, in its articles.
 * I still object to this phrase. I also think that the next sentence is remarkably strange:  Conway "lost access to the woman's children".  Which woman?  Conway's ex-wife's children?  Were they somehow not Conway's children?  Don't you think we could admit here that all mammalian offspring technically have two parents, no matter what the courts say about legal custody issues?  I think it might be better to say something like "Conway was denied custody of their children." WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what you don't like about the tone. The source makes it clear that life in the male role was a struggle; can you phrase it better?  And to say that she was denied custody would not be supportable, since she never sought custody. Dicklyon (talk) 04:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I made a couple of changes in the direction you suggest. The bit about struggling with life in the male role is still the best I've come up with to reflect the contents of the source (I'm not trying to duplicate it's tone, but to reflect the bare bones of the information). Dicklyon (talk) 05:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that the aspect of struggle was perfectly obvious to the typical reader without mentioning it. Nobody volunteers for transsexuality, especially not forty or fifty years ago.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * True, it's obvious and sourced, so what was the issue again? Dicklyon (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I take it back: it's not at all obvious. I knew she was transsexual for several years before that article came out.  Before reading it, I might have thought it perfectly sensible to say "while living as a man"; but after reading it, I can't really accept that terminology.  She never really "lived as a man"; rather, as the article points out, the role of husband and father was a tremendous struggle, because she was at the same time always thinking of herself as a woman, but was having to live in the male role.  Please give it a read, and let me know if you come up with a better way to express this. Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I suppose that if you didn't know that every transsexual struggles with gender roles and society's expectations, then we should not assume that the average reader will, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Transgender activism and controversy
Under #Transgender activism and controversy, if the single-quoted half-sentence is a direct quotation, then it needs double quote marks and an inline ref at the end.

The external link visible at "prevalence of transsexualism" needs to be removed, as external links should not be visible in an article per WP:EL #3. (The usual solution is to turn it into a ref.)

Finally, I think that feud is a reasonably accurate description of the standing enmity, feelings of being attacked, guilt by association, and so forth affecting the various factions (do click the link and read at least the lead to Feud), and I don't think that "academic debate" is even close to adequately descriptive. For one thing, it implies that Conway has the same academic credentials in the relevant field, since an academic debate is most often a debate among peers -- not a long-running argument between an "expert" or "professional" in the field, and a person in an entirely unrelated field that feels personally disparaged by the "expert opinion". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The quote is from Conway's home page and is widely quoted according to a quick search; it might have been picked up at any number of places, but should probably be attributed to her home page and hence as her own self-characterization.


 * I would recommend also fixing the ref/punct order. Put end punctuation (comma or period) first, then follow by refs without any spaces or commas.


 * I don't see what part you're referring to in that "feud" comment, but I object in principle to your continued strategy of saying that only the academic sexologists are qualified to have their opinions valued in this debate. Dicklyon (talk) 06:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Nogladfeline changed very contentious academic feud to academic debate here, before removing all information and links to the scandal here.
 * Certainly a direct quote from Conway should be attributed to Conway, and I agree that the punctuation around the new refs (do we really need six refs for her performance?) needs to match the style used in the rest of the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Lynn Conway is both an academic and has direct experience in transsexual issues. How can her first hand experience be discounted, while compared to what others have gained only secondhand? Her experience included decades of academic study, since young. She has conducted her own research into transsexual issues, for example, the examination of the prevalence of transsexualism. She has, specifically and pointedly, called to question the validity of sources, statistical analysis, interpretation, and broad generalization of BBL theory. Quite simply, the debate being waged is academic in nature. The lack of a PhD in sexology has no relevance to this fact. Nogladfeline (talk) 04:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't say that Conway is not entitled to hold an opinion. I don't even say that Conway's view is wrong.  I merely say that what we call an "academic debate" involves academic peers in the relevant field discussing their opposing views through conferences, journal publications, and the like.  Two astrophysicists publishing opposing papers about whether string theory does or doesn't adequately account for some detail of the universe's fabric is an example of an academic debate.  It may be rancorous -- it may even result in lifelong enmity between the parties -- but it does not involve the opinions of a person from an entirely unrelated field, and it always involves academic discourse.
 * Conway and Bailey are not peers in the relevant field. Furthermore, the debate is not fundamentally academic in nature.  Conway, like most of the anti-Bailey people in this feud, has published no academic papers on this subject.  (Conway has not published any papers at all in a sexology journal; Prevalence of transgenderism is self-published.)  Instead, the opposition has organized a string of complaints about sexual misconduct, medical malpractice, informed consent, and even personal comments about Bailey's family.  This does not constitute an academic debate.  If you wanted to call this a political debate, I might have more sympathy, since the standards of behavior are rather different among politicians (and since the goals appear to be largely political in nature) -- but academic debate is misleading.
 * Feuds, on the other hand, are intense, long-running arguments that begin because one party (correctly or incorrectly) perceives itself to have been attacked, insulted or wronged by another. I'd say that pretty much sums up the situation here:  Conway clearly believes that Bailey's book was an attack on and insult to all transgendered people, and this certainly has been an intense, long-running argument.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The cited source calls it an "academic feud". The fact that Conway hasn't published her side in an academic journal doesn't make it less academic; it's just that the academic sexologists control the journals and present their side there, so she has to present in other ways. Dicklyon (talk) 22:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am perfectly willing to stick with academic feud, especially since that's the language chosen by the cited source. I'm not willing to call it an academic debate.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

'Distorted source'?
Am I to understand that the New York Times is apparently not a good enough source for this article? Nevard (talk) 04:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


 * No, it's a great source the article. The author has some odd manglement of the facts, though, and your further interpretation of his words complicated matters.  Dicklyon (talk) 04:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

On the Prevalence of Transsexualism
I am surprised that no mention is made in the article about Conway's paper (with Femke Olyslager) about the prevalence of transsexualism. The paper, which was presented at the WPATH Symposium in 2007, shows that when counted on the basis of the number of hospital procedures the incidence of transsexualism is far higher than the estimate commonly used by the medical profession. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 15:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Transgender and Medicine Category
Have had edits removed twice by User:Msnicki for adding this article to the transgender and medicine category. Taking this to the talk article. Last removal was due to Conway not being a physician. I'll note that the topic of medicine doesn't only cover physicians but the general study and practice of health care and this can take many forms. My addition of the category to the article is due to Conway's criticism of psychological theories on transsexuality and her website on transgender medical procedures. Rab V (talk) 23:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Lynn is not a medical professional, she's an engineer and an academic. She's written about her FFS with Douglas Ousterhout and her LSR with Jeffrey Dover.  But she was writing about her experiences, not as an expert.  She's also written about Bailey and his book, TMWWBQ.  But again, she's not a medical authority and her complaints were about what she claimed were ethical and academic lapses.  I just don't think this is enough to add her to a transgender and medicine category.  Msnicki (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I have never argued she is a medical professional, only that she has had an important enough impact on the intersection of trans folks and medicine to be included in the category. Her criticisms of the theories in Bailey's books are featured in several academic and popular sources such as the NYT, Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, and the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Her website was also talked about in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality. She's also presented research on trans people to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. I hope this is enough to show the impact she has had, but I can add more citations if needed. Rab V (talk) 02:32, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

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The word "all" is vitamin spinach for strawman construction
Conway has been a prominent critic of the Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory of male-to-female transsexualism that all  trans women are motivated either by feminine homosexuality or autogynephilia.

From another perspective, this is a simple matter of principal component analysis. BBL theory seems to me to assert that the first two principle components account for all the statistically significant signal their relatively small studies are capable of yielding.

"Well, I looked into this as deeply as my research funds permitted, and I only found two principle components that I could legitimately write about by the standards of academic evidence."

Translating this into a claim that "all" transsexual women are captured by these two principle components is quite possibly an extreme injustice to the original research.

Did they or did they not go there in how they presented their original results?

In my experience, formal academic papers of any kind rarely go there in an explicit register (it only makes your paper harder to publish and later defend); what you tend to find is what the detractors paint as "professionally irresponsible" subtext.

In this context, the citation standards on Wikipedia do not lean toward teasing out professionally irresponsible subtext (outside of postmodernist circles, it's not universally agreed that is the prevailing ethical model of the scientific enterprise), and to claim this even indirectly here on Wikipedia requires a strong and explicit citation from an intermediate party of some substantial standing. &mdash; MaxEnt 17:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)