Talk:Lynn Hill/Archive 1

Revision of article
I'm going to start working on this article over the holidays and try to get it to GA or FA. Anyone want to help me? Wadewitz (talk) 23:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added some handy info from my bookshelf. Lynn Hill gives Ophir Broke a grade of 5.12d. You might want to check this. JMiall  ₰  01:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That information was already in the article and I'm not sure where it came from. Where might I find a reference for it? Do you have one? Wadewitz (talk) 18:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's in the same 'Journeys on the rock' chapter by Lynn Hill that everything I added was referenced to. JMiall  ₰  19:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed. Thanks for that! Wadewitz (talk) 19:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Sport climber?
So, the lead to this article describes Hill as a "sport climber", but I'm wondering if that is the correct term - isn't she more of a trad climber? The terms seem to have shifted in her lifetime, though. It is all a bit confusing, honestly. Wadewitz (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, so I've described her as a "competitive sport climber". That seems more precise. Wadewitz (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is hard. How best to word the lead? Hill is obviously a free climber, trad climber, big-wall climber, and sport climber all combined into one. Hm. And I just read an interview in which she said that describing her as a sport climber is "narrow and misleading". Wadewitz (talk) 18:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Infobox
I took out the infobox that only had Hill's height and weight. I know her height is mentioned a lot, so perhaps we should put that in the article, but putting a box with her "measurements" on the side of the article is not really necessary. The climber infobox highlights her achievements - I think that is better. What other achievements do you think should go in that box? Wadewitz (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd have added them to the existing infobox if I could but as far as I can tell I'd have had to edit the template to give the option. It is pretty standard to give height etc for sportspeople and I don't see why climbers should be any different. JMiall  ₰  00:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I looked around at some featured articles and it seems like it really depends on the sport - some include this information and some don't. I don't think there are any FA climbing biographies yet so we can set the standard here. I feel very torn. I know a lot of the sources mention Hill's height, so I feel like that information should be in the article, but I feel like putting that information in the infobox gives it more weight than necessary. I tend to prefer streamlined infoboxes, with only essential information. In this case, for example, I would prefer to focus on her achievements. What do you think? Wadewitz (talk) 18:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Mentioning height in an infobox doesn't take away from her achievements though, in fact in her case it adds to her wall climbing achievements as this is generally easier for taller people, although rock climbing is often easier if you are short as it helps with the power-to-weight ratio and the holds don't tend to be so discrete. I'm generally of the opposite view in that I'd prefer as much structured info in the infobox as possible, not least because then it can be more easily mined for DBpedia etc. As far as I can tell the only fairly physical sport that doesn't have height in the infobox of its featured articles is baseball, all the rest do. JMiall  ₰  00:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, so how about we just add her height, then? I agree that it is significant for rock climbing and it is mentioned in a lot of the sources. Wadewitz (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By adding it to the infobox fields? If so I'll ask if anyone objects first. JMiall  ₰  09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Conversion templates
Does anyone know why the conversion templates aren't working in the article? Wadewitz (talk) 22:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

So many redlinks!
For this to eventually pass FA, we'll probably have to create articles for all of the red links. Project! :) Wadewitz (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to write a short article on Beverly Johnson (climber) & Mari Gingery. JMiall  ₰  09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool! Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Jean Baptiste Tribout too. JMiall  ₰  00:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Contradictory sources
This interview says that she was inspired to take part in competition climbing by Marco Scolaris, which is rather different to what the article currently says. JMiall ₰  14:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen that in any other sources, so I'm tempted to leave it out unless we find other sources that same thing. Wadewitz (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Also this claims she quit gymnastics at age 17.
 * Hm. Her autobiography says she quit before high school and then took it up again in high school. This article could be condensing that timeline. Wadewitz (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Photos
I am in the process of trying to get some CC-by-SA 3.0 photos of Lynn Hill climbing. I've emailed the following photographers: Once I'm done with the article, I'm email Lynn herself and see if I can get some photos as well. Wadewitz (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Greg Epperson
 * Simon Carter
 * Greg is a no. Wadewitz (talk) 01:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Am also trying:

We'll see if I have better luck! Wadewitz (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Beth Wald
 * Phillipe Fragnol
 * Heinz Zak
 * Beth is a no. Wadewitz (talk) 19:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

The infobox photo looks rather too green to me. Adjust the levels? JMiall ₰  00:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be great if you want to do that! I would still like to get a more recent photo and better photos. Once I've finished the article, I'll email Lynn Hill herself and ask for some assistance. Wadewitz (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've emailed Lynn Hill, since the article is in better shape now. Wadewitz (talk) 22:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The email address I found for Hill doesn't work, but I found someone who knows her in a roundabout way, so I'm going to try to get her email address that way. Wadewitz (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've also now made a few posts to some rock climbing forums. We'll see if that elicits anything. Wadewitz (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added a fair use image into the infobox for now. Wadewitz (talk) 19:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That was deleted. I'll upload a different one in a few days - perhaps of her climbing the Great Roof. That should be fair use without a doubt. Wadewitz (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

This video is CC licenced. If the licence is correct, stills could be grabbed from about 4:15. JMiall ₰  18:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Awesome find! I've grabbed a still and added it. It would seem that the film festival put the clips on YouTube, so I think the licenses are legit. Wadewitz (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Book sources
I'm going to be searching out some books in the following couple of weeks - what books do editors here already own? I'll avoid camping out in REI and reading those! :) Wadewitz (talk) 19:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A couple of online sources, 1 2. JMiall  ₰  13:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 01:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Another mountainzone article containing quite a few of her opinions that might be useful. JMiall  ₰  22:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 22:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I see there's a newish book by Messner on women climbers that mentions her. It only seems to have German, French and Italian translations at the moment though. JMiall ₰  09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I might be able to make my way through the German translation - can you link me? Wadewitz (talk) 23:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a version online but this is the book. JMiall  ₰  20:02, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Some more possible sources:
 * Brave New Wild, a documentary, supposedly out this year, might be useful.
 * Beyond Gravity has a bit on Hill's thoughts on climbing at around 31 mins.
 * A bit of philosophy JMiall  ₰  13:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hill too old for shoe sponsorship - I haven't seen the video but might be worth watching. JMiall  ₰  14:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice quote about 'the delicate dance steps of tai chi'
 * Awesome. I've added some more material from these. Thanks for the material you added - you are a great collaborator! Wadewitz (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Grades
The article using solely YDS for grades (except the infobox, which I changed). While YDS is the most common grading scale in the US, should we be converting to the French scale (I think the most common world-wide)? It's similar to mathematical units where we convert, for example, from miles to kilometers. See WP:UNITS. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is a good point. I'm not enough of a climber to know the answer to that one. One of the reasons that I used YDS is because the sources reported the climbs in those grades. Maybe the grades should be reported in the grade they are reported in? So, US climbs in YDS, French scale for those climbs, etc.? This seems like an excellent question for the climbing project. Wadewitz (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Even though it would help readability within a single article I don't think we should try to convert to any single grading system because the conversions between systems are only approximate, particularly because they consider different aspects important, and the grading of any route is hardly an exact science anyway. As a general rule I would suggest using either the system under which a route was first graded, or the standard system used in the country it is in, or both. JMiall  ₰  13:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was talking to a more experienced climber last night and he was saying that the general trend in climbing literature and the climbing community is to use the system that the climb was first graded in. It may not be uniform, but that is the standard in the community, so I guess we should follow it. Wadewitz (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * J: I don't think it would help the average reader at all. Someone who hasn't climbed won't care if a route is 5.10a or 9a, they'll want a sort of barometer to how "hard" a route is, and I think we'll have to use prose for that. I was thinking it would be useful for those who know a little about the sport, and have climbed a little, and doesn't realize that there are multiple grading scales, and so won't realize that a 9a climb is substantially harder than a 5.10a climb. W: I agree that we should be using the grade that the climb was first graded in. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Los Angeles Angeles
From the Early life section - Is there some reason that "Angeles" is intentional? Don't we want "Los Angeles Angels"?

Thus, even though she was part of a successful YMCA gymnastics team that competed in southern California and performed in halftime shows for the Los Angeles Angeles, she quit at the age of 12.

KConWiki (talk) 14:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Not having heard any reason to the contrary, I am going to go ahead and change "Angeles" to "Angels". If there is any problem with this, please let me know. KConWiki (talk) 21:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This was brought up at Featured article candidates/Lynn Hill/archive1 where the primary writer of the article states that it isn't a typo. Presumably that's what it says in the source. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 22:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)


 * That's fine, however, I am sure I am not the only person who will be confused by this, esp. if the article achieves greater prominence. Can we get something on this talk page to explain what's going on with that team name? KConWiki (talk) 01:56, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I got confused. I thought people were asking if "Angeles Angels" itself was a typo, but yes, it should be "Angeles Angels". Fixed now. Wadewitz (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

International Climbing Championship
I have removed again the wikilink International Climbing Championship because it's impossible, the first world championship was held in 1991. Please read on ifsc-climbing site: http://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/about-ifsc/what-is-the-ifsc/history. It says: "In 1991, the 1st World Championship was organised in Frankfurt..." --Rotpunkt (talk) 20:34, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Is the picture of Lynn Hill
The one with the caption: "Hill became a world-renowned climber in The Gunks."?

The caption suggests it is, but I don't think so. Star767 (talk) 01:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * No not her. Just an illustration of a climber on a popular bit of the Gunks. JMiall  ₰  11:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The sentence itself is misleading. Did it really take the Gunks before she became world famous?  She spent a bit of time in the NY Gunks and then suddenly became world famous?  She was famous before she went to the Gunks.

Also, while Brad Lynch may be a chef, he is also her partner in directing and making movies. He also edits. Lots of film making credits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.67.45 (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead section
"Hill shaped rock climbing..." - could this be re-phrased for clarity? Hel-hama (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The general gist of that sentence is that she made it seem possible for women to be climbers. She inspired a lot of women to climb. "One of the first successful women in the sport, Hill shaped rock climbing for women and became a public spokesperson, helping it gain wider popularity and arguing for gender equality." - How would you suggest we reword? Wadewitz (talk) 16:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Something along the lines of what you said. "Lynn Hill opened new horizons for women in rock climbing.  She inspired a lot of women to climb."  (This could be tied in to her continuing work to teach women = and men = to climb).  Of course, Lynn inspires both sexes, so the whole idea could be left out, as well.  The ways in which she shaped rock climbing have more to do with her style of climbing than being a woman.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.67.45 (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Length justified?
Isn't this article much, much too long and detailed? Lynn Hill has certainly been an important climber, but my God, seven thousand words??! In contrast, Ed Hillary merits only 4,900 and Reinhold Messner's entry is at 4,300 words. Hillary and Messner, for different reasons, are far more significant mountaineers historically than Hill. I'd suggest that the article be edited to a more streamlined length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku (talk • contribs) 23:31, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Aren't the Edmund Hillary and Reinhold Messner articles much, much too short and not detailed enough? Edmund Hillary and Reinhold Messner have certainly been important climbers, but my God, only 4,900 and 4,300 words??! In contrast, Lynn Hill merits her 7,000 words. Hillary and Messner, for different reasons, are far more significant mountaineers historically than Hill. I'd suggest that their article be edited to a more extended length. Akseli9 (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Akseli9, is that supposed to be clever? Isoruku (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * , whether or not 's comment is clever, collegial, pleasant, etc., I think the underlying point is a good one: Whenever making such a comparison, the choice of which one you consider the standard is significant, and should be made with care. (And also, the idea that comparable topics should have articles of comparable length is not clearly established -- but let's not get into that one.)
 * In this particular case, the one that should be considered the "standard" is pretty clear. This article has been through a Good Article nomination, a peer review, and a Featured Article nomination. It's not substantially different (in either length or content) from the version approved as an FA: Special:PermaLink/555030199. My contrast, neither the bio of Edmund Hillary nor that of Reinhold Messner has, as far as I can see, ever been through any formal peer review process; so the contents of those articles shouldn't be taken as a reflection of ideal Wikipedia content. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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translation into Chinese Wikipedia
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Incorrect use of "on-sight"?
This part doesn't make sense: first "she performed an on-sight first ascent of Yellow Crack (5.12c) and Vandals (5.13a)" and then a few sentences later "It was her climb of Vandals that led Hill to reconsider her climbing style; rather than begin the climb again every time she fell or leaned on the rope for support, she hung on the rope in her harness to gain more information about the climb." It sounds like it's saying she fell on Vandals, in which case it was not an "on-sight" ascent ("on-sight" means no falls, first try, with no beta). Enoksrd (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2019 (UTC)