Talk:Lyrical abstraction/Archive 1

cleanup tag for american section
Thx for the great material -- but the history is told 4 or 5 overlapping times. Then it could use copyediting. More than this "pay it back by editing as i read" user can take on. "alyosha" (talk) 01:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

which artists are to be included
artists without Wikipedia will be removed from the list--The general standard for inclusion in such a list is being important enough for an article. Additionally, for each artist included there must be a specific reference that they do indeed belong primarily or substantially to the school. Many artists seem to be included here who are primarily abstract expressionists. DGG (talk) 21:48, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * IMHO it is a somewhat ambiguous interconnected assembly of styles - painters like Paul Jenkins, Robert Motherwell, Cleve Gray, Norman Bluhm, Helen Frankenthaler, Sam Francis and others clearly fit all three categorizations. Abstract Expressionism, Color Field painting and Lyrical Abstraction which is indicated in the list. Names can be eliminated although IMO the artists all belong to the style...Modernist (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

reducing opinions and combining references for clarity
Made changes to the article by reducing unreferenced opinions and combining references for clarity. (Salmon1 (talk) 13:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

removing artists without an articles
If anyone thinks someone belongs, either write an article, or provide enough information to show that as article would be acceptable according to WP:CREATIVE (the easiest way is paintings in major collections). Please check that for the ones who do have articles, there is a source stating that they worked significantly in this style at some phase of their career, or that would mean that some painting described by a reliable sources as being in this style is in a major collection. I suggest this is the way to deal with the problem raised above, that artists often work in many styles. I apologize for not getting back to this sooner.  DGG ( talk ) 15:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

removing artists without reference to "Lyrical Abstraction Painter"
Using IMHO or IMO in wikipedia is against the rules.
 * No original research: Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

I am removing artists' names from:"Some lyrical abstractionist painters" list that had no sourced reference as to their affiliation to lyrical abstraction. E.g.: Arshile Gorky died in 1948. "Lyrical Abstraction in America" appeared in 1970. Some other well-known artists are also removed to avoid: "novel narrative or historical interpretation" since they had no sourced reference as to their affiliation to the trend. Albert Bitran is already listed under: "European artists who painted in the manner of Lyrical Abstraction (1945–1956) and beyond." (Salmon1 (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC))


 * Using IMO or IMHO is not "against the rules". What you are quoting applies to article content, not talk page discussion, where such pointers can be useful as a stimulus for further research. It is incorrect to say the inclusion of these artists is "novel narrative or historical interpretation", just because their inclusion is unsourced. It may be that their inclusion is valid, but unsourced as yet, and it can be sourced. This is not an area I know a lot about, but a quick search turned up the following:


 * the exiled painter [Gorky] would draw on imagery culled from memories of his boyhood to forge a new language of lyrical abstraction. It was a long time before he could confront his past, but when he did he lit the way for two generations of American artists.


 * the 27-year-old Helen Frankenthaler ’s lyrical abstraction conjures up multiple interpretations


 * [John] Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles—a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky , Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell , and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It’s a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction., ArtDaily. Retrieved 26 May 2010.


 * I have underlined those artists you have removed. It seems their inclusion did not violate WP:NOR, as you suggested. There is obviously cause for concern that other removed artists may also have a legitimate place in some form in the article. The removed artists are listed below.


 *  Ty  17:59, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Removed artists

 * James Brooks (primarily abstract expressionism)
 * Albert Bitran (primarily lyrical abstraction)
 * Arshile Gorky (primarily abstract expressionism and surrealism)
 * Adolph Gottlieb (primarily abstract expressionism)
 * Robert Motherwell (primarily abstract expressionism)
 * Kenzo Okada (primarily abstract expressionism)
 * Mark Rothko (primarily abstract expressionism
 * Norman Bluhm  (and abstract expressionism)
 * John Levee (and abstract expressionism)
 * Ray Parker (and abstract expressionism)
 * Helen Frankenthaler (and abstract expressionism and color field painting)
 * Richard Diebenkorn (and abstract expressionism and color field painting)
 * Kenneth Noland (and color field painting)
 * Jack Bush (and Color field painting)
 * Frank Stella ( and minimalism, Hard-edge painting, color field painting and sculpture)
 * Brice Marden (and minimalism)
 * Ronald Davis (and Hard-edge painting and Abstract Illusionism)

More material
I chanced upon the following which may be useful for material, and also associates more artists with lyrical abstraction:


 * De Kooning's final phase, described by art historian Gary Garrels as "lyrical abstraction," began in 1981


 * GERHARD RICHTER, through Jan. 9. Routinely considered one of the greatest painters alive today, Mr. Richter offers new work that is surprisingly uneven. It includes large pieces that suggest expertly made examples of 1970s Lyrical Abstraction


 * David A. Lewis, Art, will present a paper titled, "More than Gorky's Muse - Corinne Michael West, the Lyrical Abstractions of a Painter-Poet" as a part of a symposium on pioneers of Abstract Expressionism on April 24. The day-long symposium is sponsored by the Hofstra University Museum in Long Island, N.Y. Largely forgotten until recently, Corinne Michael West (1908-1991) was closely associated with Arshile Gorky during the 1930s. In the 1940s and 1950s, West developed her own style of lyrical abstraction in response to Cubism and Surrealism, and to the philosophies of Henri Bergson and Jean-Paul Sartre,


 * East, a quintessential example or 'summation' work of so-called Lyrical Abstraction, was acquired in 1974, less than a year after the National Gallery's spectacular purchase of Jackson Pollock's Blue Poles 1952. The 'pole' utilised by Seery in East, as Schjeldahl observed, provided references to Pollock's Blue Poles, whereby the art historical debt of Lyrical Abstraction to Abstract Expressionism was captured in a dialogue in paint.


 * In the 1970s, John Seery was at the forefront of a younger generation of painters associated with so-called Lyrical Abstraction. After the challenge of Minimalism and Conceptual art in the 1960s these artists were seen as reviving and reinvigorating a painterly 'tradition' in American art. In an article entitled 'The New Informalists' in 1970, the critic Carter Ratcliff argued that Seery, like a number of his contemporaries, had rejected the narrow trajectory of Greenbergian formalism to reinstate line and colour as material, as paint. This, Ratcliff felt, placed them 'after the "classic" color painters', such as Morris Louis or Jules Olitski, yet reinforced the connection with Abstract Expressionism of the 1940s and 1950s, Jackson Pollock in particular.

 Ty  18:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations for Arshile Gorky
Removal of unreferenced names from the list prompted Modernist to give 23 citations and Tyrenius 2 citations in a very short time. Three citations for Arshile Gorky. :


 * First citation reference 20. Dorment, Richard. "Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective at Tate Modern, review", The Daily Telegraph, 8 February 2010.] The review emphasizes


 * "Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective at Tate Modern, review.

The horrors of Arshile Gorky’s childhood in Armenia paved the way to greatness in America.” In the whole review the one instance mentioning the words “lyrical abstraction” had no relation to the trend to lyrical abstraction in America. (According to Robbins: "the term used in the late sixties" see: Lyrical Abstraction}

”In 1920, through the generosity of a relative, the children reached America, where in due course the exiled painter would draw on imagery culled from memories of his boyhood to forge a new language of lyrical abstraction. It was a long time before he could confront his past, but when he did he lit the way for two generations of American artists.”

The highly respected critic, Richard Dorment states Arshile Gorky’s artistic contribution in the article:
 * ”Gorky was the link between European Surrealism and American Abstract Expressionism.”


 * Second citation reference 21. ‘’artist profile’’ retrieved May 24, 2010. The Artist Profile: Arshile Gorky points to:
 * ’’See Disclaimer


 * As sources for the profiles, I use the Internet, books, art magazines, and remembered bits from art school and a lifetime of reading and learning about art. Sometimes this results in factual inaccuracies of details as taken from various sources. I apologize for any errors thus present in the profiles, and always try to research from a wide variety of reputable sources to avoid this. (In two of the profiles - Faith Ringgold and Christo and Jeanne-Claude, the artists themselves contacted me with corrections and suggestions.) My strength, I feel, comes from my attempt to convey each artist's aesthetic and expressive intentions, drawing on my own experience as an artist. I have tried to show the significance of the artists' work, based on my own perceptions from many years of art study. Please do not depend on the factual accuracy of these profiles for academic papers and school reports. There are many other sources on the Web and in libraries whose express purpose is historical accuracy of names and dates, such as www.artcyclopedia.com, the Encyclopedia Britannica, etc. These will give you facts; my purpose is to try to explore the intentions of the artists, and the meaning of the artworks.”

Due to the disclaimer this opinion cannot be used as citation from reliable source.

This is a second presentation of citation reference 20:
 * Third citation reference 22. ‘’Art Daily’’ retrieved May 24, 2010. artdaily.org is :“the first Art newspaper on the Net. Established in 1996.”
 * ”First Major Retrospective of Arshile Gorky in Europe for Twenty Years Opens at Tate. …In New York in 1941, Gorky encountered the exiled European Surrealists, whose leader, André Breton, welcomed him as part of their movement. His lyrical abstractions anticipated Abstract Expressionism…”

According to encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):
 * ”Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”

The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable use of the term, Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969. Please see:


 * "History of the term Lyrical Abstraction in America. Participants in the Lyrical Abstraction exhibition in the article Lyrical Abstraction.
 * ”Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts/Archive 8. Working toward consensus”

Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. The importance of reliable citation is critical. To participate is both a privilege and a great responsibility. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I have restored Gorky. We follow sources, which quite clearly make the association between lyrical abstraction and Gorky. You are constructing your own argument (i.e. OR) to disagree with sources. ArtDaily is a legitimate source. I have added the extra ArtDaily reference with a footnote which says, ""Lyrical Abstraction ... has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky". If you think the article should go into more detail about his relationship with lyrical abstraction, and perhaps the fact that he died before the term was revived again, then please do so. But it's not something that should be erased from the article. Per your analysis above, I have removed "artist profile".


 * You say re. Dorment, "In the whole review the one instance mentioning the words 'lyrical abstraction' had no relation to the trend to lyrical abstraction in America." Dorment said:
 * In 1920, through the generosity of a relative, the children reached America, where in due course the exiled painter would draw on imagery culled from memories of his boyhood to forge a new language of lyrical abstraction. It was a long time before he could confront his past, but when he did he lit the way for two generations of American artists.
 * Quite clearly it was in America and it was lyrical abstraction, a mode innovated by Gorky, who according to Dorment was a precursor to later trends.
 *  Ty  22:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Since you stated that my above argument is OR I find it necessary to have this discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts. The consensus may go along with your activity but in my opinion it is not about winning but about being rule abiding. I do not agree with your reversion of Arshile Gorky based on the grounds that you gave. Salmon1 (talk) 23:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)) (Salmon1 (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC))

De Kooning
 Ty  23:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Two paintings acquired since the founding donor's death exemplify the remarkable flowering of de Kooning's 'old-age style' of lyrical abstraction."
 * "De Kooning's final phase, described by art historian Gary Garrels as "lyrical abstraction," began in 1981"

Correction for repetition of painters in the article
The following artists are already in the list:
 * ”Participants in the Lyrical Abstraction exhibition:

European artists who painted in the manner of Lyrical Abstraction (1945–1956) and beyond: The above names are deleted from the list of :"Painters" since they are already listed in other lists. References are added to the respective names in the list
 * Dan Christensen
 * Ronnie Landfield
 * John Seery
 * Pat Lipsky
 * Paul Jenkins

Citation for Mark Rothko
The article emphasizes that during the late 1950s the American abstract expressionism and its representative in the show, Mark Rothko was the equivalent to the "French tachistes as Georges Mathieu" and to the work of their Cornish counterparts, the St Ives artists.
 * Mark Rothko Independent.UK.co. retrieved May 24, 2010.
 * "There is nothing in the Rothko display or the catalogue that dares to challenge the received orthodoxy that modern abstract art was made in America."

Rothko is not defined as a Lyrical Abstractioist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 01:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC))

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Salmon1 (talk • contribs)

Safari cannot open the page, citation for James Brooks

 * James Brooks Honolulu Academy of Art retrieved May 24, 2010 (Salmon1 (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC))

Citations for James Brooks

 * NY Times obituary retrieved May 24, 2010. The obituary states:
 * ”(James Brooks) known as a lyrical painter.”

By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books], retrieved May 27, 2010. James Brooks stated:
 * Artists' estates: reputations in trust


 * ”I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.”

The citation clearly determines that James Brooks did not consider himself a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I think Gorky and James Brooks should be re-included, probably de Kooning as well...Modernist (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Gorky and De Kooning (per refs above on this page). I don't see the material validating Brooks' inclusion. If it exists, please quote the relevant passage(s). "known as a lyrical painter" does not mean he is a lyrical abstraction painter.  Ty  01:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Since James Brooks clearly states that :"his whole tendency has been away from.... lyrical" therefore there is no reason to list him as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter.(Salmon1 (talk) 00:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC))
 * I disagree with that interpretation. Actually Brooks states above "I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.” Given the proximity to Jackson Pollock - his neighbor on Long Island the emphasis on line becomes more apparent as Brooks used areas and not lines in his paintings. The text that follows in the book says: "By 1948 Brooks' interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color." Clearly defining his work as lyrical abstraction...Modernist (talk) 16:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That seems to be clear enough that his work was, at least at a certain point, lyrical abstraction, so validating inclusion.  Ty  17:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Lyrical abstraction in general
As to lyrical abstraction in general - it is a descriptive term characterizing a type of abstract painting related to Abstract Expressionism; in use since the 1940s. Gorky, Motherwell, Brooks, Gottlieb and others seen in context have been characterized as doing a type of painting described by some as lyrical abstraction. The second common use refers to the tendency attributed to paintings in Europe during the post-1945 period and as a way of describing several artists (mostly in France) whose works related to characteristics of American abstract expressionism. At the time (late 1940s)Paul Jenkins, Norman Bluhm, Sam Frances, Jules Olitski, Joan Mitchell, Ellsworth Kelly and numerous other American artists were living and working in Paris and other European cities. With the exception of Kelly all of those artists developed their versions of painterly abstraction that has been characterized at times as lyrical abstraction, tachisme, color field, and abstract expressionism. Finally in the late 1960s (partially as a response to minimal art, and the dogmatic interpretations by some to Greenbergian and Juddian formalism) many painters re-introduced painterly options into their works and the Whitney Museum and several other museums and institutions at the time formally named and identified the movement and uncompromising return to painterly abstraction as lyrical abstraction...Modernist (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't say that, but conveys the impression of specifically defined but unrelated periods. What seems to be the case, from recent discussions on this pages and references cited, is more of a continuum with certain intensified periods.  Ty  17:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This can probably be added to the lede, it might help clarify things...Modernist (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations for Robert Motherwell

 * Article citation reference: Robert Motherwell Color as Field retrieved May 24, 2010

Discussion on Color field painting, the article states:
 * The correct citation reference:‘’Origins of Color Field painting and American Post-War Abstraction’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
 * "Color field painting is related to Post-painterly abstraction, Suprematism, Abstract Expressionism, Hard-edge painting and Lyrical Abstraction."

The article states relatedness to Lyrical Abstraction but not equivalence:


 * Article citation reference: Robert Motherwell Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010

The article is for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition by the Garbushian gallery owner:
 * The correct citation reference: ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
 * ”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….

Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….”

The promotional article is an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached. There is no reference that justifies Robert Motherwell to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 13:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I agree the first source does not validate the content. The second source should be considered, but is weak. However, there is a better link for that content, namely "L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" on ArtDaily. The source then becomes ArtDaily rather than the gallerist, as they give it the authority of their publication. We then have to consider WP:NPOV, in particular WP:UNDUE, as to whether this represents a majority, minority or tiny-minority opinion. ArtDaily is a significant publication, but we really need an additional source to back it up. I don't think it's enough to make a yes/no decision on list inclusion.


 * The problem lies with the construction of the article with this list format for key material. It is obvious from the discussion to date that there needs to be a more subtle explication of Lyrical Abstraction, the connection between two major statements of it in time (in Europe, then in the US) and the fact that the term has been used also for work between those two points (e.g. Gorky). This can only be done in article text, not in a list. If this were the case, then a proper delineation could be made of the position of artists such as Motherwell, who may have a connection with the tendency or have been linked with it at times or by some people, but who may not have been seen that way by other people etc. At the very least, the list should be subdivided into those artists who are primarily LA and those who are more partially connected.


 *  Ty  15:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations for Richard Diebenkorn and Brice Marden
Referencing in article for artists name="Lyrical abstraction movement" Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010:


 * Richard Diebenkorn Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010.


 * Brice Marden Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010.

Correct referencing article for artists: name=‘‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010:


 * Richard Diebenkorn ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010


 * Brice Marden ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010

The referenced article is for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition by the Garbushian gallery owner:
 * ”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….

Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….” The promotional article is an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached. There is no reference that justifies Richard Diebenkorn and Brice Marden to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 17:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I have already addressed this in the preceding thread, which you have not responded to. I repeat it here: "However, there is a better link for that content, namely "L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" on ArtDaily. The source then becomes ArtDaily rather than the gallerist, as they give it the authority of their publication." You say the source is "an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached." We require wikipedia editors to provide references for material, but we don't require our sources to provide references for their material, as they are considered to be authoritative in their own right. If there is a question mark as to how widespread the viewpoint in the source is or another source differs, a simple solution is to attribute it to the source in the article text or in a footnote, e.g. "Collector and gallery owner, Herair Garboushian said... etc."   Ty  17:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Tyrenius and or Modernist
Tyrenius and or Modernist you are the responsible party for the citations at hand as well as participant in the creation of the article at hand. According to the rules of Wikipedia:


 * ”Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves….Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. See No original research....Material such as an article or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars.”

In forcing of addition of major American abstract expressionists to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) painters as you pointed out may elicit OR or WP:NPOV or both. Also please keep in mind the definition:


 * ” According to encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):

Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”

The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable references. Please reread the reason for the deletion of James Books as well as Motherwell from the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. It is critical to adhere to the rules of wikipedia. (Salmon1 (talk) 18:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I'm not aware that I have been a participant in any significant way in the creation of the article. I have found some sources for it. I don't understand your citing of wikipedia policy. You are urging (quite correctly) that material should come from sources and that these sources should be used from NPOV and not be interpreted by wikipedia editors. However, sources have been provided which state that certain artists are associated with lyrical abstraction and it is you who wish to make an interpretation of your own to say that the sources should not be used.  Ty  19:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You have to pay attention to the fact that in the arguments provided for the deletion of specific artists one must rely on references alone. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Truthfully you added the entire list of European 'lyrical abstractionists,' and you added the double definition; and you added the entire list from the Aldrich catalog...Modernist (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations for Robert Motherwell (2)

 * Article citation reference: [[Robert Motherwell Color as Field retrieved May 24, 2010

Discussion on Color field painting, the article states:
 * The correct citation reference: ‘’Origins of Color Field painting and American Post-War Abstraction’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
 * "Color field painting is related to Post-painterly abstraction, Suprematism, Abstract Expressionism, Hard-edge painting and Lyrical Abstraction."

The article states relatedness to Lyrical Abstraction but not equivalence.


 * Article citation reference: [[Robert Motherwell Lyrical abstraction movement retrieved May 24, 2010.

The article is for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition by the Garbushian gallery owner:
 * The correct citation reference: ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ retrieved May 24, 2010
 * ”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….

Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….” The promotional article is an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached. There is no reference that justifies Robert Motherwell to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters.

The article is for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition at the Garbushian gallery. The article is an exact repeat of the previous one obtained from visualartsource.com.
 * Article citation reference: Robert Motherwell "L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" on ArtDailyRetrieved May 28,2010
 * ”Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….”

The two identical articles are for the promotion of John Seery, Lyrical Abstractionist painter’s exhibition at the Garbushian gallery. One is written by the proprietor of the Garbushian gallery, the other is an advertisement of the same exhibition by artdaily.org. In both cases the words written by the proprietor with no reliable references attached. The two identical references represent an opinion. The statement has not been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. There is no reference that justifies Robert Motherwell to be included in the list of (Lyrical Abstractionist) Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I agree the first source does not validate the content. The second source published only by the gallery is weak, but publication as "L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" by ArtDaily then gives it the authority of that publication. It is not an advertisement (in the sense of bought space), but editorial material. Press releases are often used in whole or part by other publications: this indicates that the publication trusts the content provider, so is an endorsement, as the publishing of bad information would reflect adversely on the publication.


 * The source then becomes ArtDaily rather than the gallerist, as they give it the authority of their publication." You have said the source is "an opinion of the proprietor with no reliable references attached." We require wikipedia editors to provide references for material, but we don't require our sources to provide references for their material, as they are considered to be authoritative in their own right. If there is a question mark as to how widespread the viewpoint in the source is or another source differs, a simple solution is to attribute it to the source in the article text or in a footnote, e.g. "Collector and gallery owner, Herair Garboushian said... etc." We do not require sources to be peer-reviewd or academic journals. Wikipedia draws on all significant sources for material, including news journals. We then have to consider WP:NPOV, in particular WP:UNDUE, as to whether this represents a majority, minority or tiny-minority opinion. ArtDaily is a significant publication, but it would be useful to have an additional source to back it up, if we are to make a yes/no decision on list inclusion.


 * The problem lies with the construction of the article with this list format for key material. It is obvious from the discussion to date that there needs to be a more subtle explication of Lyrical Abstraction, the connection between two major statements of it in time (in Europe, then in the US) and the fact that the term has been used also for work between those two points (e.g. Gorky). This can only be done in article text, not in a list. If this were the case, then a proper delineation could be made of the position of artists such as Motherwell, who may have a connection with the tendency or have been linked with it at times or by some people, but who may not have been seen that way by other people etc. At the very least, the list should be subdivided into those artists who are primarily LA and those who are more partially connected.


 *  Ty  21:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations for James Brooks (2)
By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books], retrieved May 27, 2010. James Brooks stated:
 * Artists' estates: reputations in trust


 * ”I think my whole tendency has been away from a fast-moving line either violent or lyrical into something that is slower and denser of more wandering and unknowing.”

The citation clearly determines that James Brooks did not consider himself a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. Since James brooks clearly states that his whole tendency has been away from lyrical therefore there is no reason to list him as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. (Salmon1 (talk) 20:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC))


 * This line further down on the same page - Artists' estates: reputations in trust

By Magda Salvesen, Diane Cousineau, p.69 Google books] "By 1948 Brooks' interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color." undermines your assertion...Modernist (talk) 21:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. The citation clearly states his work as "lyrical abstraction".  Ty  21:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOV; WP:NOR and
(This section is a copy from: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts)

The title of the article: Lyrical Abstractiion. The trend, American Lyrical Abstraction, is illustrated with the painting: [Ronnie Landfield]], For William Blake 1968,

The article provides groups of well-referenced lists of artists:
 * French artists (1945 - 1956)
 * Artists in Paris (1945–1956) and beyond
 * Exhibition participants of Lyrical Abstraction at the Whitney Museum of American Art, 1971

At the end of the article Modernist and/or Tyrenius created a list:  with the subtitle:

"”This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction.'"The subtitle follows the listing of 87 artists.


 * The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable references. Using WP:ORIGINAL in wikipedia is against the rules.


 * "No original research: Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts,    arguments, or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

The subtitle of the list consists of the words: This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it…..

The list of painters calls for synthesis of published data (period or significant aspect of it). Although In the article's discussion, some of the cytations have been disputed the premise of the list itself is in dispute and should be deleted. (Salmon1 (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)) Added summary explnatin (Salmon1 (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC))


 * First of all you removed a lot of artists from this list on the basis that there were not references provided to validate that they had painted in a way that was described as lyrical abstraction. These references were provided and the artists reinstated. You have raised this at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts and questioned the validity of the references. So far no one has supported your position. You are now saying that painters whose work (in whole or part) has been described as lyrical abstraction cannot be listed in the lyrical abstraction article under a heading of painters. This is not WP:SYNTH, as no original argument has been advanced. The sources have been provided to say they have painted in the mode of lyrical abstraction and they are simply listed as such.


 * Your continual advocacy against these lyrical abstraction painters has become the pushing of a POV and Tendentious editing.


 * I suggest also that you keep the convesation in one venue, namely Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts or Talk:Lyrical Abstraction, instead of copying everything on both pages.


 *  Ty  18:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Gorky references (cont)

 * The copying in both pages is necessitated by your statement:


 * "”Your continual advocacy against these lyrical abstraction painters has become the pushing of a POV and Tendentious editing.”"


 * Providing proofs in a dispute is following the rules of Wikipedia. It is not"“the pushing of a POV and Tendentious editing.”"


 * Proof of WP:ORIGINAL does not require consensus. Wikipedia as a free encyclopedia ultimately adheres to its principal rules.


 * Modernist and/or Tyrenius created a list:  with the subtitle:


 * "”This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction.'"The subtitle follows the listing of 87 artists. The first artists listed:


 * Arshile Gorky (primarily abstract expressionism and surrealism)


 * Lyrical Abstraction, Ref.26: Doment Richard: Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective at Tate Modern, review 8 Febr. 2010:


 * "“In 1920, through the generosity of a relative, the children reached America, where in due course the exiled painter would draw on imagery culled from memories of his boyhood to forge a new language of lyrical abstraction.”"


 * Later on the exhibition review he writes:


 * "”Gorky was the link between European Surrealism and American Abstract Expressionism. The passion, enigma and autobiographical dimension of his work would find their way into the art of Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning, and, above all, Cy Twombly.”"


 * Ref.27: Art Daily: First Major Retrospective of Arshile Gorky in Europe for Twenty Years Opens at Tate: May 24 2010 No named reviewer.


 * "“His lyrical abstractions anticipated Abstract Expressionism, which emerged in 1940s New York amongst a circle of artists who valued spontaneity of expression and individuality, including Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko. Gorky’s assimilation of European and American influences resulted in a distinctive synthesis of artistic cultures. Paralleling the Surrealists’ idea of automatism – the free flowing release of the hand from conscious control of the mind - he forged an entirely new type of abstract painting.”"


 * Ref.28:artdaily.org: L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work:


 * "“Two years ago, long before opening his Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, art collector Herair Garboushian became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery’s work of the early 1970s………Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles—a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It’s a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction.”"


 * The above promotional, advertising article by collector/dealer for John Seery on the website, artdaily.org is an exact duplicate of the advertizing article by the same gallery on the website, visualartsource.com. ‘’Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition’’ It repeats the same above statement:
 * "”Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted and enamored with artist John Seery's work of the early 1970s….Seery is an oft-cited prime example of the Lyrical Abstraction movement in New York and Los Angeles-a movement that encompassed work by artists such as Brice Marden, David Reed, and Larry Poons in the late 60s and 70s, also has been applied at times to the work of Arshile Gorky, Richard Diebenkorn and Robert Motherwell, and by definition could feasibly extend to the work of many abstract artists to this day. It's a painterly, emotional and decidedly non Hard-edge type of abstraction….”"


 * The repeat advertising segments on John Seery substantiate that “Reference:28” cannot serve as reliable source for reference to justify Arshile Gorky as an American Lyrical Abstractionist Painter.


 * Ref.29: Tate.org.uk. Press Office: Press Releases: Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective February, 9. 2010.


 * About the exhibition it states:


 * "”Celebrating one of the most powerful and poetic American artists of his generation, Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective examines the extraordinary contribution of this seminal figure in Abstract Expressionism.......His lyrical abstractions anticipated Abstract Expressionism, which emerged in 1940s New York amongst a circle of artists who valued spontaneity of expression and individuality, including Jackson Pollock, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko,”"


 * If the list intend to further substantiate the article, American Lyrical Abstraction is an art movement that emerged in New York City, Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and then Toronto and London during the 1960s - 1970s, then referencing of Arshile Gorky relies entirely on the synthesis of published data which is WP:ORIGINAL in wikipedia is against the rules.


 * Ref.30: Mildred Lane Kemper Art Museum: Gesture, Scrape, Combine, Calculate: Postwar Abstraction from the Permanent Collection


 * "”This exhibition showcases works of large-scale postwar abstraction from the Kemper Art Museum’s permanent collection. The selection presents a cross-section of proliferating strategies and approaches to abstract painting and sculpture as practiced by artists working across the United States and in Europe from the immediate postwar years to the late 1970s. Highlights include examples of gestural and lyrical abstraction, color-field painting, hard-edge abstraction, and assemblage by artists such as Alberto Burri, Gene Davis, Roberto Matta, Arshile Gorky, Allan McCollum, Jules Olitski, Antoni Tàpies, and Anne Truitt.”"


 * The reference does not specifically states that Arshile Gorky was a Lyrical Abstractionist Painter.


 * Discussion:


 * Arshile Gorky: (born Arshile Gorky; April 15, 1904 – July 21, 1948) in no place in the press releases is defined as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter. In 1971, John I. H. Baur in the "”Forword”"of the Whitney Museum exhibition wrote the following disclaimer:


 * "”To be given an entire exhibition surveying a current trend in American art at a single blow is an experience unusual to the verge of bizarre………Mr. Aldrich defines the trend of Lyrical Abstraction……Suffice it to say that that they are the reflection of the founder’s (Mr. Larry Aldrich founder of the Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art) taste, his unorthodox methods, his unconcern with established reputations and above all his responsive and receptive eye.”"


 * According to encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):
 * "”Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”"


 * The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable use of the term, Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969. Please see:


 * Arshile Gorky died in 1948 before American abstract expressionism and latter in 1969 Lyrical Abstraction emerged in the US. In 1951, Lloyd Goodrich, in “Homage to Gorky,” a talk delivered on February 16, 1951, as part of a symposium on Gorky at the Painter’s Club, New York stated: stated:


 * "”Even when he was trying to paint a Picasso or a Braque, the result was pure Gorky.”"


 * There are number of citations asides from Arshile Gorky for different artists in the list: that need to be analyzed as to their correct listing as Lyrical Abstractionist Painters. (Salmon1 (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC))

Response to
Please do not post duplicates in two different locations. Discussions should take place in one location. This is the normal and best place for it. There is no need to post substantial extracts from policies or Jimmy Whales. Editors are familiar with them. A wikilink is ample. What is needed is to demonstrate their specific application, not their existence. It would also be helpful if your addressed the particular points made. I have responded in sections, so talk can be posted with a specific target. Kindly per WP:TPG: "Be concise: If your post is longer than 100 words, consider shortening it. Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood."  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Richard Dorment
You have given the quote from Dorment where he mentions lyrical abstraction. You have then given a second quote from him, without any comment as to why you have done so. The second does not invalidate the first. Gorky can both "forge a new language of lyrical abstraction" and also be "the link between European Surrealism and American Abstract Expressionism".  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Art Daily on Tate show
You have stated, "Ref.27: Art Daily: First Major Retrospective of Arshile Gorky in Europe for Twenty Years Opens at Tate: May 24 2010 No named reviewer", again without any comment as to why you have done so, apart from "no named reviewer". A named reviewer is not necessary. The name of the publication is adequate.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

ArtDaily on Seery show
You have stated "Ref.28:artdaily.org: L.A. Art Collector Caps Two Year Pursuit of Artist with Exhibition of New Work" and commented that it is an "exact duplicate" of the article on "visualartsource.com. Garboushian Gallery-John Seery Exhibition. However, you then quote the two texts, which shows they are not exact duplicates. The first begins, "Two years ago, long before opening his Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, art collector Herair Garboushian became acquainted..." The second begins, "Two years ago, long before opening my Camden Drive gallery space in Beverly Hills, I became acquainted..."

You say re. the preceding, "The repeat advertising segments on John Seery substantiate that “Reference:28” cannot serve as reliable source for reference". The article on ArtDaily is not an advert, but editorial matter. The source is the publisher of it, ArtDaily, as a reliable source.

 Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Tate on Gorky show
You state, "Ref.29: Tate.org.uk. Press Office: Press Releases: Arshile Gorky: A Retrospective February, 9. 2010" and give a quote from that without any indication of why you are questioning it as a reliable source.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

American Lyrical Abstraction
You say, "If the list intend to further substantiate the article" and link to the section on "American Lyrical Abstraction". No one said the list is intended to substantiate the article. The list is in its own section and clearly defined. Lists can't substantiate an article: only references can do that.

You say, "American Lyrical Abstraction is an art movement that emerged in New York City, Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and then Toronto  and London during the 1960s - 1970s, then referencing of Arshile Gorky relies entirely on the synthesis of published data which is WP:ORIGINAL in wikipedia is against the rules." You are wrong: referencing of Arshile Gorky does not synthesise anything. The sources state clearly that he painted in the mode of lyrical abstraction. There is no novel conclusion. It is synthesis to say "American Lyrical Abstraction emerged 1960s - 1970s; Gorky died before that; therefore Gorky cannot be classed as a lyrical abstraction painter." It is WP:SYNTH, because the sources do not say it: the only person saying it is you, hence WP:NOR.

Clearly there is more to lyrical abstraction in America than the particular emergence of it in the 1960s - 1970s and the article should reflect that the term is applied to painters before this period also. I have already said this earlier on this page, but you have ignored it.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Kemper Art Museum ref
You say, re. "Ref.30: Mildred Lane Kemper Art Museum: Gesture, Scrape, Combine, Calculate: Postwar Abstraction from the Permanent Collection" that "The reference does not specifically states that Arshile Gorky was a Lyrical Abstractionist Painter". I agree: it is clearly non-specific. I have removed the ref and replaced with a specific one from The Providence Journal.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Whitney Museum show
You say, "Arshile Gorky: (born Arshile Gorky; April 15, 1904 – July 21, 1948) in no place in the press releases is defined as a Lyrical Abstractionist painter." I presume this means the press releases for the Whitney Museum show in 1971. An absence doesn't validate that Gorky was not a lyrical abstractionist, only that he was not included in this show, which, as you go on to quote, was "the reflection of the founder’s (Mr. Larry Aldrich founder of the Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art) taste".  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Indisputable use
You give a definition from "encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press" and say, "The tenuous definition of Lyrical Abstraction demands the reliance on indisputable use of the term, Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969." The definition is limited in scope and other sources give a much fuller application of the term. We should represent them all per WP:NPOV.  I agree that article inclusion should rely on "indisputable use of the term" and the references have been supplied which do exactly that. However, the article is "Lyrical abstraction" and not "Lyrical Abstraction, commencing in America in 1969". It covers all uses of the term, and all artists to whom the term have been applied. Your argument points to a rearrangement of article content, not removal of it. I have pointed this out before, but you have ignored it.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Gorky's life
You say, "Arshile Gorky died in 1948 before American abstract expressionism and latter [sic] in 1969 Lyrical Abstraction emerged in the US." If Gorky (as sources identify him) was a lyrical abstraction painter, then clearly lyrical abstraction was being practised in America before 1969. It may have emerged with a particular focus in 1969. Again, this argues for clarification in the article. It does not invalidate the application of the term by sources to Gorky. Your argument for that, as I have pointed out above, is a violation of WP:SYNTH.  Ty  02:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * A Google search displays multiple articles and museum texts in which Gorky's work has been described as displaying elements of lyrical abstraction, which is in keeping with the premise of the lede, as well as the later listing artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction. Given that the term has been used not solely to describe the artists of the Aldrich show, this strikes one as a non-controversial inclusion. JNW (talk) 03:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Video

 * Here is a video lecture by the curator of the recent Gorky Retrospective at the Philadelphia Museum in which journalist Lee Rosenbaum comments Taylor effuses over Gorky's greatest works---the lyrical abstractions of 1943-4. Michael Taylor lecture, Philadelphia Museum...Modernist (talk) 04:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect quotation of Video
Who is Michael Hunter that you are referring to? Please quote correctly. Michael Taylor, :” the museum's indispensable curator of modern art.”

Please correct your wrong attribution of Michael Hunter to Michael Taylor from The Philadelphia Museum who gave the lecture. The video provides proof for the definition of encyclopedia.com (Oxford University Press):


 * ”Lyrical Abstraction. A rather vague term, used differently by different writers, applied to a type of expressive but non-violent abstract painting flourishing particularly in the 1950s and 1960s, chiefly in France; the term seems to have been coined by the French painter Georges Mathieu, who spoke of ‘abstraction lyrique’ in 1947. European critics often use it more or less as a synonym for Art Informel or Tachisme; Americans sometimes see it as an emasculated version of Abstract Expressionism. To some writers the term implies particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”

In the video Michael Taylor, uses the term “lyrical abstraction” to imply
 * ”particularly a lush and sumptuous use of colour.”(Salmon1 (talk) 14:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC))

Misrepresentation in the article
History of the term in America


 * ”Lyrical Abstraction in America, according to John I. H. Baur, curator of the Whitney Museum of American Art, was an art movement during the sixties and early seventies.”

The “Forword” by John I. H. Baur does not include any of the above statement:


 * ”To be given an entire exhibition surveying a current trend in American art at a single blow is an experience unusual to the verge of the bizarre…Mr. Aldrich defines the trend of Lyrical Abstraction and explains how he came to acquire the works…”

(Salmon1 (talk) 16:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC))

James Brooks' testimony denying his association with lyrical abstraction
James Brooks: My whole tendency has been away from the fast moving line either violent or lyrical.. Added to the External Links James Brooks' testimony with the introduction by Ann Temkin Chief Curator, MOMA. Wikipedia demands reliable sources as reference. I hope his own voice will give enough proof that James Brooks does not belong to the list:
 * "This is a list of artists, whose work or a period or significant aspects of it, has been seen as lyrical abstraction, including those before the identification of the term or tendency in America in the 1960s."

Please take off the name of James Brooks from the list. (Salmon1 (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC))

If there is know response from Modernist and/or Tyrenius I'll move the request to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts. (Salmon1 (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC))


 * Brooks is rightfully included in the article because of these 3 references one of which includes the quote which is on the sound bite that contains his comment about his line:  The sound bite is accompanied by this text by Magda Salvesen and Diane Cousineau: By 1948 Brook's interest in synthetic cubism had evolved into a lyrical abstraction of stains, drips, and interpenetrating platelets of color. Modernist (talk) 20:57, 1 October 2010 (UTC)