Talk:Lytham St Annes

A couple of comments from a previous editor:

(a) My point about more churches than pubs was deleted as being incorrect. This certainly was a commonly held view amongst locals some time ago - perhaps it is no longer true. I included it because it was seen by many as a significant fact worth noting about the town. I'd like to see some current statistics, and even if it is no longer the case, it would be worth mentioning in a historical context, especially in view of the demographic changes as witnessed by the reduction in average age.

(b) the recent addition that St Annes was founded by the Vikings does not have a source quoted. For something this significant, I think a reference is needed.

DaveDave 17:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Re the vikings see my comment below Rugxulo 03:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Third opinion
The version by Joe minsk is well-written, but I am concerned about "more and more younger families are relocating here." Putting this in the present tense makes it a prediction, which we shouldn't be doing. Better would be "over the past X years, more young families have moved here, reducing the average age from 50 in 1995 to 45 in 2005." Of course, citations would be necessary. Until those citations can be provided, I would prefer to use the version by Davewild. Tom Harrison Talk 18:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Another third opinion: I agree, Davewild's version seems to be best right now as it provides a citation and avoids any predictions. --Hetar 04:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

A couple of points I would like to mention:


 * Hetar: I think your contribution here does not add any value to the discussion. It is merely a waste of the site's disk-space.

Joe minsk 12:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Tom harrison: From someone who has actually lived in the town for the past 32 years and has extensive knowledge of the housing market here, my comparison between the past and present demographics is valid and verifiable from the analysis of house purchases over the years.


 * Your remarks to Hetar are inappropriate. Comment on content, not other users, and be civil. As far as your personnal knowledge, I'm afraid that Wikipedia does not publish original research. Tom Harrison Talk 13:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
I've rewritten the article in an attempt to address some problems, which were


 * Mixture of information about Lytham St Annes as a whole, and Lytham and St Annes as individual communities
 * Related facts scattered throughout the article e.g. concerning notable buildings in Lytham and the various property development issues
 * Poor grammar

The article is now structured to have information about the whole of Lytham St Annes at the beginning and then separate sections for Lytham, St Annes, Ansdell and Fairhaven. There is also a separate section on property development which I've added to.

Hopefully nothing has been lost from the previous version although I did remove the following claims:


 * African Queen built in Lytham - apparently this was not the case
 * St Annes dating back to Viking times - it was actually founded in 1875. Kilgrimol which is now within St Annes is thought to have been founded by vikings in about 900CE.

Any comments or edits would be welcome. Rugxulo 03:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You've got St. Annes being a contraction of St. Annes-on-sea. As I understand it from local history lessons, St.Annes-on-Sea is the name of the railway station, and the town has always been St.Annes. Arguably the town was built around the station, but none the less as I understand it, the corporation and council and the postal address are (or were) St.Annes.


 * A valid point. I'm not aware of St Annes-on-the-Sea being in common use. St Annes seems to be the main name in current use, followed by St Annes-on-Sea. I'll change this. Rugxulo 23:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence of continuity of habitation between Kilgrimol and St.Annes, and in fact I can only find a very few online references to the Kilgrimol settlement. I've read of there being traces of a viking cemetery, but whether Kilgrimol is a verified name for the settlement, or simply an assumed name for a supposed settlement, traces of which have been found, I do not know. It may be worth bearing in mind that the costline may well be rather different now to what it was around 800AD, the date of viking occupation. Meeware-Old Lidunian- 5th August 2006 –
 * You are right - I've changed the text; hope it is OK. In fact there seems to be little surviving evidence of continuous habitation, with the exception of the house opposite the Headroomgate Road shops which carries a plaque stating it was built in the 17th century. I was told that there was a monastery just off what is now Highbury Road, which is now covered by the Old Links golf course and the Frobisher Drive estate. Rugxulo 23:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC) (Old Lidunian; 1980-87)

Tiny Edit
Removed part of the sentence stating that the 'green' in Lytham is several miles long - you're lucky if its a mile!! Darkfearytales 15:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Property developments
I have again reverted an edit removing the entire section on property developments. Anyone who lives in Lytham St Annes (and I have lived here for 36 years) cannot fail to be aware that this is an important issue. Only a fortnight ago another local group was set up to oppose the expansion of the airport. Removing the section will not change this; Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a clone of "Lancashire Life". As the author of this section I have endeavoured to make it as NPOV as possible. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to edit it, to discuss it on this talk page, or - if they think that it is not and cannot possibly be made NPOV - to instigate a accuracy dispute as per Wikipedia custom and practice, which in any event would need discussion in order to resolve it. Rugxulo 22:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Kilgrimol
I believe the village of Kilgrimol appears on a map of c.1532 under the name "Kylgmoles" or similar. There's also the tale of the bells of the old priory being heard sporadically from beneath the sea. Does anyone have any sources and, if so, would it be worthwhile adding a couple of sentences to the article? Theelf29 15:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Ansdell
I have come across a reference to Richard Ansdell and his connection with the area and have included it as a citationCharlie odd 17:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed Links/Spam
As part of the Wikipedia Project to clean up external links/spam WP:WPSPAM I've removed a number of external links. I've also removed the clean-up spam tag. -- Rehnn83 Talk 10:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * virtual tour of Lytham Windmill - Removed as LinkSpam/Non-notable
 * Pictures of Lytham Windmill - Removed as non-notable - It doesn't contribute positively to the article.
 * Lytham Matters - Discussion Forum For Issues Affecting Lytham - Forum link seems to point to a non-existant forum and WP:EL advises againt linking to forums.

Correct Name
As a 'sand grown' local I submit that the correct spelling of the name of my town contains a full stop and, more importantly, an apostrophe. I.e. it should read 'Lytham St. Anne's' It makes sense also: belonging to St. Anne rather than named after a sainted person called Annes !! Any thoughts or history pleaseJabba11a 13:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)?!

I agree there ought to be a full stop and grammatically the apostrophe should be there, however I believe it's generally omitted for convenience and so should be respresented on these pages likewise. I lived there all my childhood and still visit regularly and nobody I know puts an apostrophe in, except when referring to the church. Keith Worden 18:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Keith - perhaps sadly I still put an apostrophe in (letterheads etc.) and so does my father so maybe it's a pedantic Hutt thing!?

This is rediculous. The town's name clearly should include an apostrophe. I have lived there all my life and maintain the use of an apostrophe. Otherwise, the meaning of the town's name becomes non-sensical.
 * Lytham St Annes was an artifical name, created in 1922 when the Municipal Borough of Lytham St Annes was created from the merger of St Anne's on the Sea Urban District and Lytham Urban District. It never, officially, had an apostrophe, despite the fact that the former urban district did!  Now that a civil parish has been created for St Anne's on the Sea, the apostrophe has made a reappearance in official circles.  As for spelling the settlement, that's officially up to Fylde Borough Council.  The Ordnance Survey shows it as St Annes, presumably because that is what they had been notified by the council at some point in the distant past.  Whether that will change with the creation of the civil parish remains to be seen. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

History section
Just to explain why I have now twice reverted the edit made by anonymous user User:212.139.220.32. The reference is correctly formatted and sourced with the ISBN, book title and page number as per wikipedia. Removing this and placing the authors name in brackets is not how tosource the content of this section. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦ · Talk 18:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That would have been me - didn't realize I wasn't logged on. I'm not entirely clear about the "correct" method of citing sources - the page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources lists several methods and to me the Harvard system seems "more correct" for books. The "ref" system is described as a footnote - which is not what a reference is anyway. Keith Worden 18:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem, I did wonder if it might be your edit! Regardless of WP guidelines, adding it as a note with the page number in the Notes section enables users to identify exactly where the source comes from, rather than just putting the authors name in brackets which doesn't really identify the source. And if it's ok with you, I'm doing a bit of extra work on the section about places of worship just to expand it from being a list and to include more. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦ · Talk 18:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Article split
As a civil parish of St Anne's on the Sea (with an apostrophe and a the) has now been in existence for a couple of years, is it not about time this article was split into two: one for Lytham; and one for St Anne's on the Sea? Wikipedia UK policy is to have articles down to every civil parish (at least). A similar situation existed at Cowes, when the civil parish of East Cowes was created, and resulted in two articles which were both better than the original. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Article title
The title was recently amended to include a period but this is inapplicable in current usage and in direct contrast to the use of "Lytham St Annes" throughout the article. Fylde Borough Council use Lytham St Annes and that must give some stamp of authenticity.

Arguments about the correct style of St Annes whether it includes a period and/or an apostrophe will continue but, as I learned early on when I joined this site, the WP:COMMONNAME guideline must be followed and there is no doubt that common usage in recent decades has seen the decline of the apostrophe, although that was once common. I have rarely seen the period in use but I don't deny it may have been the practice when the town developed in the 19th century. It is any case grammatically incorrect to place a period after an abbreviation which terminates with the same letter as the complete word. Hence you use etc. and not etc while you use St Annes and not St. Annes.

I think all articles related to St Annes should use that form according to common usage but explain in the lead or in a footnote that other formats have been used in the past. --Old Lanky (talk) 09:07, 20 October 2012 (UTC)


 * A further complication arises with the "full stop" or "period" in abbreviated "Saints". The convention on Wikipedia for the whole of the United Kingdom is that the full stop is not shown, no matter what local usage is.  This was the solution agreed by WikiProject UK Geography, and is included in the naming conventions.  Saints in the United States tend to show the "period", as that is what was agreed by American editors.  The names of actual saints (such as Saint Cuthbert), should be spelt in full, though that is often not followed, particularly for church names.  Skinsmoke (talk) 03:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall that during the 1980s there was a brass plaque on the St Annes Road West entrance to the Town Hall that read "Lytham SAINT Annes" (without an apostrophe). In popular usage I am not aware of ever seeing "St" written as "Saint" or "Annes" written as "Anne's", apart from a window sticker in Kilnhouse Lane Tesco when it first opened, that implied the store belonged to St Anne (lucky lady :). Rugxulo (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Train journey times
The claims that Manchester and Liverpool are an hour away by train are completely false. Lytham to Preston is about half an hour at best. Also most trains to Manchester, and possibly all trains to Liverpool, involve a change at Preston. Rugxulo (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, all trains involve a change (at Preston), but that's quite usual on the railway! The quickest train to Manchester Piccadilly takes 1.27, but most others take just under 2 hours. The quickest train to Liverpool takes 1.51, but most also take about 2 hours. I guess it would be easy enough to compute a numerical average, although that would be WP:OR, of course. It might be better to say "Manchester and Liverpool are about two hours away by train". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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Split
I have created Draft:Lytham, Lancashire and Draft:St Annes, Lancashire and I intend to split most of the content from here to those topics and also the content for the suburbs such as Ansdell be moved to the Lytham article since its in Lytham unparished area. While I realize that there is an overlap both topics are defined legally recognized places (or at lest St Annes is). Please expand the drafts with any such information or other information.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 20:55, 17 December 2020 (UTC)