Talk:MAX Light Rail/Archive 1

Portland Vintage Trolley
Couldn't believe that the Portland Vintage Trolley wasn't mentioned as running along the MAX line. Not to mention that it wasn't even an article! So I took the liberty of adding it in.

-User:Ajbenj

You and your vintage trolly! :) Alphalife 04:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Volunteering for a total clean-up
From what I see, we need to clean-up the MAX articles. Here's a list of what I propose. I'd be happy to do the work, and will hold off on it until next week pending responses here. Here's some of the things I think and have heard that need to be done:


 * Category clean-up: See "Images and Thoughts of Mine" below.
 * Photo project: Let's get some pictures for at least the major MAX stations. I have tons that I am willing to release. Anyone else?
 * I would be willing to release any I take, as well as take some specifically for the article. My camera only does 640x480, but this should more than enough.
 * Callcentermonkey 13:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC) 13:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Orange/Yellow Line debate: From what I can tell, it will be the Orange Line, not the Yellow extended to Milwaukie. Articles need to be consistant across the board on this. A source of mine says this it'll be the Orange Line. The Yellow's going out to Tigard whenever they get around to that.
 * Template: Perhaps the page should have a station template for the MAX system, similar to the one for the Vancouver SkyTrain (see the bottom page of that article for the station template box).

-User:Ajbenj

I created a public domain system map. I noticed at the top of this page, there was a reference to train maps, and if completed, to remove the link. Since I was not sure if they meant a symbolic map (which I have done), or an actual proportional map, I did not remove it. If someone wants to check on that that knows wikipedia better than I, please feel free to do so, and remove this as well, thanks! Hope everyone thinks the map is good enough (i.e., readable, accurate and simple). Callcentermonkey 10:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, wow, meant to do a little, ended up making major additions. Added fare information as suggested, and created a photo for a ticket machine. I do apologize if everything is not up to par; I'm still learning how things are done here, so please, if something is amiss, or you have suggestions, just tell me, I'll be happy to modify (so I learn how to do it myself vs. you just doing it) and bring it up to standard.

The photos I've done are form my Motorola v360, which isn't bad as VGA camera phones go, but I'm sure someone should, and will likely, make better photos at some point. Until then, these should be of sufficient quality.

Callcentermonkey 22:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Images and other thoughts of mine

 * Can we get rid of Category:Metropolitan Area Express (Portland, Oregon)? There's like 5 entries in there and its parent Category: Transportation in Portland, Oregon isn't that big.  Category:MAX stations would be a child of transp.
 * Same thing with Image:1portland max 029-med.jpg. I don't get the point of a picture of people standing around.  It is used in Portland, Oregon and Transportation in Portland.  Image:PortlandTriMetMAX.jpg is much better.
 * I have replaced the JPEG version of the map with a smaller PNG version
 * Replaced by public domain .png (See below) Callcentermonkey 19:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * More Red line trains are having two cars
 * I recall an announcement that all Red lines were going to a consist of 2 cars; however, I can't provide a reference to back this up. Callcentermonkey 10:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

--Jason McHuff 05:57, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * On the station pages, instead of The ABC station is a light rail station on the MAX Color Line, how about ''ABC is a light rail station on the MAX Color Line?
 * AJ: needs to be updated (streetcar)...and make it a GIF or PNG!
 * How about links to the lines at the top instead, eg by TriMet and consists of three lines: Blue, Red, and Yellow?


 * Category clean-up: I think that the Category:Metropolitan Area Express (Portland, Oregon) can be OK. I base this on the merits of when one of us actually get around to adding more things about the MAX system (ex. articles about the vehicle types, MAX infrastructure: like the Robertson Tunnel, planned Caruthers Bridge, Ruby Junction Yards, etc..) Articles that aren't stations but pertains to the system in general. The lines definetly belong there. Still, another idea would be to create a TriMet category, and put MAX stations in as a sub-category there. Sound good? Thinking about cleaning the MAX stuff up (see above). TriMet would be a child of Transportation in Portland, Oregon, Mass Transit in Oregon, and Multimodal Transportation Agencies.


 * Picture of people waiting: Yeah that one isn't really something to shout about (no offense to the photographer). For variety, I can furnish one of the billion photos of the MAX that I have to replace it. If not Alphalife's photo will be great.


 * Map of downtown Portland rail lines: Yeah, that has to be updated. Unfortuneately I lost the map of downtown which is the basis for that map. Will update it as soon as I can make a new downtown map of find the old one. I made that in Flash, but can make it into a Gif.


 * List of lines: Somebody eliminated all of the links to the lines from the main MAX page. Going to put them back in if anyone else doesn't. Waiting to see where everyone thinks they ought to go.


 * -User:Ajbenj (9-20-05)


 * If you are talking about the See Also section, that was me. The idea is have it be a part of the intro (see my last point above; the lines in the table could also be clickable).  Also, I guess we can go with the Orange line for Milwaukie.  And on catagories, if there are going to be more general articles, it does make since the way it is now. Lastly, the template could also be --Jason McHuff 00:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Salem MAX Extension? Sounds sketchy

 * "Future Expansion Plans


 * Plans are said to be in development for an extension of MAX to Salem, Oregon and eventually all the way to Eugene, Oregon."

Please cite this source. Have not heard of any such plan. Could you be referring to the Beaverton-Wilsonville Commuter Rail project? If so, that is not planned to be Light rail, it is heavy rail. I think that belongs on a page about the planned commuter rail line, not on MAX's page. I'm not going to delete the info yet, but will wait for confirmation of this. If no response for a day, will move the info to a Commuter rail page (if one exists).

Oh and BTW, I am the author of the NYC Subway articles on the MAX. Glad to see that there are people who have read them.

-User: Ajbenj (9-5-05)


 * No such plan exists nor would it be feasable. It is difficult to get funding for 5 mile extensions much less a 50 mile extension.  Maybe a politician made a comment somewhere, but there is no way the public would be behind spending tens of billions of dollars with the current budget shortfalls and education cutbacks in Oregon.  If they were to undertake such an endeavor, it would be after multiple Vancouver extensions were in use.  Cacophony 22:17, September 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * This is definetly a non-existant plan. -User: Alphalife (9-6-05)


 * I lived in Salem and can confirm that there has been talk of extending a rail line down to Salem. However, it would be the B-W commuter rail line, NOT MAX.  I have also heard that the question "when are we going to get MAX?" is asked quite often by people from Salem.  Overall, they seem to forget about the Amtrak Cascades...--67.160.146.193 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Glad to see it just isn't me that questioned that! I found it common for people to mistake the commuter rail project (which probably someday will reach Salem) as a MAX line. This was especially true when I lived in Wilsonville. Seems like no matter how much it is stressed that it isn't a light rail line, the public gets it wrong...

-User: Ajbenj (9-20-05)

Previous discussions
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/max-blue-east.html - some great historical information that could be used here -User:Cacophony

I debated whether to put this page at Metropolitan Area Express or Metropolitan Area Express (Portland, Oregon), decided on the latter with a redirect from the former. It's not famous enough to omit the city name from the main article title.


 * Las Vegas and (I think) Miami are two other places that have routes with the same name--67.160.146.193 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Now we just need some pictures. Maybe I'll take some next weekend. --Nate

Lines & Extensions
Although I realize TriMet itself is prone to confusing them, I think we need to make a distinction bewteen the Line (The route trains run on the rails) versus the Extension (The rails built under a certain project). They are not one in the same. --Bill 23 Nov 2004


 * What is the difference? Alphalife 00:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


 * For example, the Yellow line goes from 11th to the Expo Center; but the extension for it only goes between Rose Quarter and the Expo Center.--67.160.146.193 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * This is pretty much covered in the lines table. Especially since they broke up the Blue Line into the Eastside and Westside sections, and noted the milage. --User:Ajbenj


 * It doesn't break the Red Line up into Airport, Eastside and Westside sections; nor the Yellow Line into Interstate and Eastside sections. I am noticing this more and more, people are attaching the line color to the rails way too much. --Bill 17 Feb 2006


 * Can we mention in the table how many stations total each line serves, as well as how many it exclusively serves? Saying the Red Line has 4 stops is rather misleading. For one thing, how do we know which line should get credit for a stop served by multiple lines?
 * As far as I can tell, the breakdown of stops by line is: 4 Red Line only, 25 Blue Line only, 10 Yellow Line only, 13 Red & Blue Lines, 13 Red, Blue, and Yellow Lines.
 * Total stops for each line is: 30 Red, 51 Blue, 23 Yellow.  Identity0 06:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and made the changes I suggested a ways back. --Bill 9 Sep 2006

Orange Line
The special issue of the Portland Tribune distributed at the Yellow Line opening celebration included a map of future MAX lines, which now includes the Orange Line.

The Orange Line goes from Rose Quarter TC, runs southwards on Fifth Avenue (northwards on Sixth Avenue), crosses the Hawthorne Bridge, enter McLoughlin Boulevard and ends at the new Milwaukie TC (where the movie theater used to be, right by the OLCC warehouse).

The Green Line would run from Gateway TC, enter I-205 and end at Clackamas TC.

Also the map shows a possible expansion of the Yellow Line from Expo Center to downtown Vancouver, then eastward to I-205 and back to Oregon, meeting the Red Line at Mount Hood Avenue Station, to enter the Portland International Airport.

-- User:sarahandrea

Milwaukie: Orange vs. Yellow Line
I've recently come across what my source says is an official TriMet map of what they want the MAX system to look like in about 50 years. Without divulging much, I did notice that the Yellow Line would be put on the Transit Mall tracks, but continue on Barbur Blvd. south to Tigard (all on the west side of the Willamette River. The Milwaukie extension would be colored orange, running on the Transit Mall tracks, turning around on a loop track at Union Station.

Also, TriMet has added a small webpage about the Milwaukie project, using an orange logo (here at http://www.trimet.org/milwaukie/index.htm) and has a map of the South Corridor Project (Accessed from the I-205 project page, but here: http://www.trimet.org/improving/southcorridor.htm) with the line colored orange.

-AJ


 * It really is a little early to worry about this; however, my guess is that it will be part of the yellow line--it was part of the original South/North proposal and TriMet likes to thru-route trains and buses--67.160.146.193 04:45, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * However, the Yellow Line may one day be extended to PDX via a loop through Vancouver, WA. The Milwaukie line may go to Oregon City. I've seen a map and have a good source that says the two will be separate lines. The Yellow'd go to Tigard via Barbur and the Orange would be from Union Station to Oregon City. DOn't know if the Orange Line would go anywhere else, but that's what my map and source have shown me. The media have also colored the Milwaukie line orange. Besides, we can always change the article later.. :P

-Ajbenj (9-20-05)

I removed the reference to the map in the article, Tri-met's south mall project will route the yellow line to the new tracks, meaning the map is inaccurate with regards to the location of the yellow line tracks and thus can't be used to prove the new line will/won't be a continuation of the yellow line. Suntzu3500 06:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fares & Zones
Ok, I see there is a brief mention of 'fareless square', but there is no mention of the Zone system of fares, or fare prices. I think that deserves its own section. Identity0 06:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Your wish is my command :) I'm pleased to announce a Fare section.  I will be happy to add something about Zones, once I find concrete data about it (like "a 2 mile radius from point A and inward, is Zone 1".  For now, the system map I created has easy to read zones.

Zone 2
edit -	** Scenario 1: Purchased from an Operator. Must state which two zones you wish it to be valid for. -	** Scenario 2: Purchased from a ticket machine or pre-paid ticket. Purchaser does not need to declare zones used for. This can be used as a loophole for an "All Zone" ride. If a Fare Inspector asks while in Zone 3, one simply states it is for zones 2 & 3. If in Zone 1, simpy state it is for zones 1 & 2. There are only three places where one can purchase a ticket in Zone 2: Hollywood/Northeast_42nd_Avenue_Transit_Center_(MAX_station), Northeast_60th_Avenue_(MAX_station) and Northeast_82nd_Avenue_(MAX_station). This can be eliminated by replacing the 6 older ticket machines (2 at each station, which feature hard-coded buttons, and are not easily exapndable), with a newer style (which feature soft-buttons whose function changes as indicated on the display above them) which would allow a new sub-menu when selecting a 2 zone fare for choosing zones 1 & 2 or zones 2 & 3.
 * 2 Zone: $1.65 (Valid for travel between any two zones. If purchased within Zone 3, it is valid for zones 2 & 3. If purchased in Zone 1, it is valid for zones 1 & 2. Fare machines within zones 1 & 3 will automatically issue the proper zone ticket based on its location. There are two possibilities for if it is purchased in Zone 2. 	+

was replaced with:
 * 2 Zone: $1.65 as "a ramble"

Granted, I may have been verbose, but completely eliminating an actual loophole in the system (and its solution for a balanced view) seems a bit draconian. In the spirit of avoiding an edit-war, I'd like to bring it over here for discussion first. Callcentermonkey 12:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * When I get around to it, I am wanting to re-do the article. Right now, it seems to be kind of a mess.  With all do respect, especially since I never thought of the Banfield fare zone issue, I believe that fares, as well as bus lines, are too specific for an encyclopedia article.  Also, I like how you made a free map; however, it would be nice if it showed the actual turns, somerhing that not even the official map shows. Jason McHuff 01:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There have been a few good suggestions for the map. I think keeping one simple one for reference (like the current one) is a good thing; I will be redoing that map as time allows.  I think the kind of map you're suggesting would also fit the description of the wiki trains map project, and could be done as well, showing major roads, etc., that I would also be willinig to work on as time allows as well.  What I'd really love help with is details for all the stations, with the one at Callcentermonkey 00:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Electronic displays?
Someone put in the Lines section, At many stations a live readerboard shows the destination and time-to-arrival of the next several trains. I've never seen that, at least between the Airport and Beaverton TC, where the major stations are. Is someone confusing MAX with the Portland Streetcar? Identity0 11:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You haven't looked very hard. Off the top of my head I know they're at all the stations along I-84, Gateway, Parkrose TC, as well as the Sunset TC.


 * They also have a new flat screen television display in Downtown at the Mall/SW 4th Ave station (Mar. 19th '06)


 * I have a picture, but because the displays are scanned, much like a TV, it only captured a partial image of the LEDs lighting up. Someone with a real camera, that could adjust shutter speed down to 1/30th of a second could probably get a much better picture.  I will upload the picture for public domain if requested, but would prefer someone takes a better one.
 * Callcentermonkey 22:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Broken link for a map to the Green line/Yellow line extension
The map http://www.trimet.org/improving/images/southcorridorphasemap.jpg leads to an error page.--Will 04:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Extension possibilities
It is very unlikely that MAX will get extended very far into Vancouver. My reasons:
 * CTran and Tri-met do not get along well.
 * Clark County taxpayers have rejected levies to pay for such lines.
 * CTran would probably end up running MAX lines in Washington. They have no experience with them.

I do see some possbility that the Yellow line could be extended, but only to CTran's downtown Vancouver transit center. All the way to SR-500, Vancouver Mall, and back down I-205? Forget it.

I do agree with previous discusions where a Salem extension was ruled out. (That appears to have been deleted from the main article. Thank goodness.

An extension in Gresham was appearantly planned originally. However, since that line was built, development (including a Home Depot with only a telephone company yard between it and the final Max station) has occurred on the would-be route. The extension would have to happen on city streets for a brief distance.

An extension to Forest Grove would be a good idea. However, it will not happen until the existing westernmost station can be redesigned. There are preexisisting commercial rails in the area. Those would need to be crossed somehow. MAX does not use or cross at grade any active commercial rails. There is not even a way to transfer a train.

Finally, Damacus and Boring sound to be a little too far for Max. I doubt there would be much demand. If trains did run there, I see no reason why they would run there more than twice each rush hour.--Will 05:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Boring and Damascus are poortly served by buses. In the past, tri-met generally replaces frequent service buses with rail as needed, and I don't think service to those cities would be economical or cost efficient. Also, MAX extension to forest grove is somewhat impractical until forest grove expands further - as it is line 57 serves it adequately, and there isn't a large commuter population. It's more likely that tri-met will focus on closer-in commuter towns like Oregon City and even potentially the Barbur Blvd Corridor that extend survace to the far outlying areas. Suntzu3500 06:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * While these are valid points, they are on TriMet's radar. All of these extensions (notably Vancouver right now) are mentioned in TriMet's annual reports. Alphalife (talk) 23:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Notes on train lengths
The article states that trains longer than two cars would block downtown streets at lights. This is correct. However, a two-car train can obstruct traffic on two streets at once if forced to stop along the blocks between SW 9th and SW Park. Please note that those interestions do not have stoplights. So the trains normally do not stop there. However, it is possible that it could happen -- especially during riots or congestion.

Second, some of the oldest stations were built with platforms long enough to service a three car train or a two car train with a single car behind it. (Two trains at once.)

Finally, all Blue Line trains are two cars each. This still is the only line that uses the Type 1 cars. At least one Type 2 or Type 3 car will be part of each train. Those cars provide all real handicapped access. Normally, Red Line trains are just one car. However, the line can use two car trains if needed. From what I have seen, the Yellow Line trains are mostly two cars, but may use some one car trains periodically, presumably depending on predicted load.--Will 05:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

From what i've seen red line trains use two cars normally and yellow line trains use only one, although you're entirely right, it is dependent on congestion. Frequently red line trains run with two cars to supplement the blue line trains going between beaverton and gateway when it isn't practical to increase the service on the blue line. Suntzu3500 06:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Historical note
The Blue Line was mostly built alongside or in preexisting, but abandoned, commercial right-of-ways. This results in many maps, inluding online maps, showing rail lines intersecting the Blue Line. This is an error. In fact, I know of one rail in eastern Hillsboro (along Corneilus Pass Road) that is abandoned with the track gone (except at some intersections). The same line is shown intesecting the Blue Line track on many maps.

In my opinion, not having at-grade intersections with Heavy Rail makes MAX safer.--Will 05:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen firsthand freight rail running alongside and at one point entering the MAX tracks near Beaverton creek. That freight line is still active, although ill-used. Suntzu3500 06:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Use of abbreviations in station names
The articles for many of the MAX stations have the abbreviations NE, SW, E, etc., spelled out in the station names, e.g., "Northeast 60th Avenue" instead of "NE 60th Ave". This seems incorrect, both in terms of street naming and building address conventions in Portland (where the abbreviations not spelled out), and the published station names on the TriMet website and on system maps. I think these articles should be renamed to reflect the actual station names. --ScottMainwaring 07:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I would agree with this as well Callcentermonkey 18:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Total revamp
I've seen it mentioned, and I figured I'd give my own shot at this: Do you think it's feasible to get a fully functional reference on the system? Something that doesn't blather on or attempt to rival the trimet page, but perhaps something that offers:
 * Pictures of the stations
 * Easy to decipher diagrams of the platforms/bus configurations
 * General arrival times

These are all things of interest to even outsiders, and I volunteer to do a majority of the picture taking. I made mention of "easy to decipher" diagrams because the ones trimet uses are sometimes hard to figure out on first glance.

Is this too big an idea? --Alex-jon 18:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I was just about to link to nycsubway.org's page, which has some good station pictures and other info. Also, why did the page get moved to _(Portland)?  To me, it seems it should be at _(Oregon), since it also serves Beaverton-Hillsboro riders .  Jason McHuff 03:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
Metropolitan Area Express (Portland) → MAX Light Rail — "Metropolitan Area Express" is rarely used; "MAX Light Rail" is the common name Jason McHuff 19:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment: Besides being used on the official site, for those who love Google search, the phrase MAX Light Rail gets much more hits than Metropolitan Area Express, even through the latter can also refer to other systems. Also, as I said above, I'd like to get away from using "Portland" in the title since MAX serves people going between Beaverton and Hillsboro and not into Portland at all. Jason McHuff 21:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

 * 1) Support.  The suggested name is shorter, more widely used, and apparently officially sanctioned -- an improvement on multiple dimensions, worth the effort to change. --ScottMainwaring 21:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per Scott. Cacophony 04:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. I am the original author of this article (though I haven't edited in a long time). When I created the article I was new to Wikipedia and didn't know what naming convention to use. --Nate Silva 20:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

 * 1) Oppose.  While I support moving the page to a better name, the name proposed is a bit cluncky.  I do believe "Metropolitan Area Express" should be shortened to "MAX" and propose "Portland MAX" would be a better article name.  Most other articles related to public transit systems follow a "[City] [System name]" convention. --Millbrooky 20:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Vegaswikian 20:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC) -

Category deletion/rename
I am proposing that Category:MAX be deleted and that Category:Metropolitan Area Express (Portland, Oregon) be renamed to MAX Light Rail. Jason McHuff 01:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

History section
I think it would be good for the article to add a history section and cover many of the items in this article. However, that article cannot be used as a source since it does not meet WP:RS, but it could serve as a good starting point to search out reliable info. Aboutmovies 08:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There's some good info, and good citations, at Mount Hood Freeway and Neil Goldschmidt. Good idea, AM. -Pete 16:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Steel Bridge clarification
The third paragraph currently reads: In central Portland and Hillsboro, MAX trains run in reserved lanes on surface streets, unlike the Portland Streetcar, which runs in mixed traffic. Outside the central city MAX runs primarily its own right-of-way fully separated from traffic. I think we should mention that the MAX does run in mixed traffic on the Steel Bridge. However, I am not sure whether we should amend this paragraph, or add it in as a footnote. Does anyone have a suggestion?

To get to GA
If anyone is interested in moving this toward GA class, here are some items that would need to be addressed:
 * Move a lot of details out of the lead and into the main part of the article. The lead should be one to two paragraphs that summerize the article.
 * Make a history section, this is needed for the breadth requirment
 * Sources, sources, sources. There are currently four, and three of those on TriMet's. There should be plenty of mentions out there in reliable sources to cite/expand the content.
 * Trivia type section: Though the "Popular culture" section is not titled trivia it basically is. I would integrate it into a history section, and pair down some of the info (i.e. no need to mention Jeff Gianola in this article).
 * Copyedit
 * That should be all this needs, already has lots of graphics and pictures. Aboutmovies 05:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have a "controversy" section in the works. That should help with breadth a bit.  —EncMstr 07:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

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