Talk:MDS International

"Legal Problems" section
I'm removing the Legal Problems and associated sections. It appears to discuss a patent disagreement with some small company, and having half the article about it appears to be undue weight. Please cite major stories in mainstream news sources confirming the importance of any legal case. Thanks! Weregerbil 12:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

See your talk page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.109.95 (talk • contribs)


 * Please let's discuss it here instead.
 * Companies are often involved in legal cases. Making this article mostly about the legal case is undue weight, unless that legal case can be verifiably shown to be a defining characteristic of this company. Until such a time, the legal case should not be a major issue in the article, along with purpots to provide and This page are LIES MADE BY MDS AMERICA junk. Please do not turn Wikipedia into a battleground or a vehicle for attack. Thank you. Weregerbil 10:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Weregrbil thanks for your comments. I believe there is enough information here to be verifiable and that this law suit has become THE defining characteristics of this MDSI company. By following the PACER links (People am prohibited from supplying the documents.) one can verify this and the links are placed in the article.64.134.109.95 10:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Those are court documents that do not verify the importance of the case, aren't they? Any external reliable sources? Weregerbil 10:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)64.134.109.95 10:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No sorry these court documents specifically address the establishment of a new service in the US. There are many many links around the Internet about the significance of MVDDS and MDSI. I will flesh out the article now. See http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=772&wit_id=212864.134.109.95 10:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So has this been widely covered in news and other independent third party sources? The "contempt of court ruling" section is the largest in the article; if that is a major legal battle then it should be easy to find plenty of sources that discuss it. Randomly picking and bolding sentences from court documents without any sources constitutes original research, I think. Weregerbil 10:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No Weregerbil, the ruling has been low key up until now. The contempt of court ruling has just been released to the public and not picked up by the press (yet). iunless one of he parties bring it to the attention of the press it will not be "news." But it is very significant info to anyone in the MVDDS market. I am adding content to the article now64.134.109.95 10:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So we are in agreement this is unsourced and cannot be verified using reliable sources? Weregerbil 11:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. The PACER site is as reliable and verifiable as anything. I have reviewed your links to reliable and verifiable and the ruling is both. How is this not fulling the criteria fo both? 64.134.109.95 11:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Can the importance of the legal case be verified using neutral reliable third party sources? Weregerbil 11:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Paper companies" section
Any sources? Sources for the importance of these companies? Sources for the claimed motivation of creating the companies? Weregerbil 11:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I am adding as we speak but the reference provided show the motivation. Please follow the links. 64.134.109.95


 * Which reference is that please? The section in question has no references at this time. Weregerbil 11:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I though they were in links. I will remove that motivation.


 * Is there some reliable source that discusses those companies and why they are encyclopedically relevant? Weregerbil 11:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Results of Court Case" section
Is there some reliable source that documents the events in this section, and verifies that they are indeed results of the case? At this time, the section is completely unsourced. Weregerbil 11:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC) I will try and provide sources.

This is not going into a very good direction
This article is a mess of unpublished synthesis of published material. Is it possible to find reliable sources that discuss the whole issue, instead of Wikipedia conducting slanted original research into the importance, reasons, and reprecussions of a court case? I think we need pretty impressive sources before dedicating three quarters of an article to a lawsuit.

Incidentally, someone removed unreferenced notability tags from the article. As of now, I'm not sure the article fully explains why this 6-person company making 10,000 EUR/year is encyclopedically notable in the first place. Weregerbil 11:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Purports
Sorry I missed that one in the company bar. Thanks.64.134.109.95 04:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Legal sections and other changes needed
After a complaint received to WP:OTRS, I've removed the section on legal troubles since it provided no references. The contempt section provided sources to primary documents, which are not acceptable sources. Please see our policy on verifiability for more information.

Currently the article contains a great deal of information that is only referenced from material produced by the subject of the article. More references from third party sources are needed and more material should be added to the article to balance the large section about lobbying.

Please make sure that any further information added cites reliable sources and keeps the article inline with our policy on neutral point of view. Shell babelfish 08:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking at the history of the article, there has been an attack angle in this article, starting from the preferred version of the original creator of the article. Appears there is a legal dispute between this company and another, resulting in some mud slinging here...(With all due WP:AGF.) The lack of third party sources makes it hard to describe the legal case in balanced terms. Or even verify the encyclopedic importance of the legal case. There aren't even sources that describe how this 6-person 10,000-EUR-revenue company passes WP:CORP in the first place. As it is, it is db-company material. Weregerbil 10:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. There is no assertion of notability. Please let me know if there are objections to an A7 speedy. --Fang Aili talk 13:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There is an ongoing deletion discussion, but as of yet, other than a brief spurt of media attention in 2001 there seems to be little that would qualify this company under WP:CORP. I wouldn't object to a speedy.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shell Kinney (talk • contribs) 22:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Please remove all our Brand MDSinternational are use by MDS america all text inside are made by MDS america, I have change a minimum to make right but every day again somebody add false informations. our company WEB site are www.mds.fr all about us in Wikipedia are false or truncated informations made By Kirkpatrick Machrino the CEO omf MDSA or also Wizard..... the CTO of MDS America

Thank you to remove all.

Jean-Claude Ducasse CTO


 * Having finished a review of the sources provided in the article, I found that little to none of the information in the article was actually contained in the sources. Because of this and the company's complaints I have stubbified the article.  Please make sure when adding information to the article that you provide a reliable source and do not add information that is your personal knowledge outside the scope of what the sources provide.  Please let me know if I can help explain any of the Wikipedia policies involved in this incident or answer any other questions on how to write an article.  Thanks! Shell babelfish 22:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


 * From my discussion page from you SHell

"I would appreciate it if you could remove the personal attack from your user page. Per our policy, attacks of that nature are forbidden. Thanks. Shell babelfish 04:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)"

But the above unsigned comment stands huh? WizardOfWor 12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What is this?
I thought the admins were supposed to be unbiased. It seems that my review of what has happened here is that jeancluduc started vandalizing pages, Doing multiple reverts, and making numerous legal threats. As I followed his "contributions" what I see are rants and personal attacks like the one above and the one that was on WizardOfWor's user page (since removed). I see almost constant censorship, warnings, and actions against, what at least from the outside, appears to be the less egregious side, althogh both sides seem to be pretty bad.

Why is a Wikipedia admin picking sides? Why isn't the org doing more to over see this type of thing?74.225.165.44 12:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought to provide an example. Here on the page discussing the deletion of this article a [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/MDS_International/ post] was placed accusing Admin Shell of being partial to one side. While I agree that this comment is not so pertinent to the deletion discussion, the most basic rules of impartiality would dictate that Admin Shell not move this to an obscure location. There are other Wikipedia Admins who could do the same.

However not only was it moved by the person it accused; there was no link placed so that the user community could easily find it. This impinges the motive even more. At best, it was an oversight, but it smells to me like picking sides especially given the trail of Shell VS WizardOfWor. 74.225.165.44 13:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Campaigns against rouge admins are common, and as far as I can tell, pretty systematically ignored by everyone else, and thus mostly a waste of breath. Just FYI. Happy editing! Weregerbil 13:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Wacky comments
So we are reduced to a discussion from a pathological liar and a rogue Admin. If there are actually people who are reading this and contemplating a system purchase, place a note on my talk page and I will supply the number of "customers" of MDS International. After your dicsussion with the people who have had a "system" built by this company you canlet Wikipedia of the service they are providing the public hereWizardOfWor 20:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Please understand that personal attacks are absolutely not allowed on Wikipedia. Your positive contributions are appreciated; comments such as "pathological liars" may get you blocked without further warning or discussion. Thank you. Weregerbil 22:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Weregerbil, in answer to the personal attacks of Mr Harold Kirpatrick alias WiZardOfwor it is easy to see our WEB site www.mds.fr and to mailto us and also to download the official TM and patents of MDSi http://www.mds.fr/news/Press%0Release%20MDS%20April%202006.pdf JC Ducasse MDSI CTO.

Also on the MVDDS acronym subject again by Kirpatrick of some appropriations please consider that MVDDS for ITU and Europe are not the same acronym signification and concept (To the best of our knowledge, the Hypercable® system is the only MVDDS Multipoint Video & Data Distribution Service operational terrestrial system of this type. http://www.acronymattic.com/results.aspx?q=MVDDS are MVDDS Multipoint Video and Data Distribution Service. Why Kirpatrick said yes in the past and no Today ??

According to Kirk Kirkpatrick, MDS International began developing the MVDDS technology in the 1980s. By 1996, their service offering was used in 20 countries around the world. Mr. Kirkpatrick now repudiates this. In the United States, Northpoint Technology L.L.C. requested approval from the FCC for DBS spectrum sharing in 1995 and was granted approval to experiment with their technology. In 2001, the U.S. distributor for MDS received approval for testing their service offering. Currently, the FCC allows licensees to provide television signal and high-speed internet; however, the internet traffic is limited to downstream only.

Sources about MVDDS in USA from Financial Times and some more to clarify the subject:

The genesis of MVDDS was a 1998 FCC request for applicants seeking to launch commercial services on the 12 GHz band. Along with several satellite-based applicants, Northpoint asked for permission to create the terrestrially delivered TV service.

Another more info from Financial Times: Entrepreneurs need not apply January 15, 2004 By Thomas Hazlett " Northpoint Technology first came to the Federal Communications Commission with the idea for MVDDS in 1994. The company's concept was then tested, proved and ultimately adjudged to be in the "public interest" by regulators, but its request for a licence was denied."

Also in this, page Kirpatrick said:

"MDS has used microwave technology to deliver communications services in the Middle East and has Saudi and Kuwaiti investors. MDS Chief Executive Kirk Kirkpatrick predicts his company"

Yes MDSi has used microwave technology to deliver communications services in the Middle East but not MDSAmerica the deal are made by MDSinternational

And yes MDSAmerica are Hold at 98% by Kuwait investor the Sheik AliKhalifa Al Sabah :

Stories of Democracy: Chapter 8- The investigations of KOTC’s finances soon produced criminal indictments of three Kuwaitis: former oil minister Shaikh `Ali al-Khalifa, former managing ... www.ciaonet.org/book/tetreault/ch08.html

PDF] Sex and violence: social reactions to economic restructuring in KuwaitFormat de fichier: PDF/Adobe Acrobat in the case brought by KOTC against its former managing director and others ... McCoy, Kuwait Petroleum Corporation, and Sheikh Ali Khalifa al Sabah (third ... taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/index/YQXV3YQFFW4YB6LM.pdf

Is this a Joke
Was the person who wrote the above drinking?? Does this mean anything? Is this just cryptic? 76.109.17.236 00:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Islamists Extremists in Kuwait said Wizardofwor
What does this have to do with MDS International. MDSI seems to be a comapny that has left a longline of fraud and theft behind it, Now one of the principals is trying to change the subject?

jeanclauduc seems to be posting old infomation about ISLAMIST going after someone who is promoting democracy in the middle east. Everything I read seems to say that the action refenced above is motivated by Islamic fundamentalism.

The reader will have to notice that in the above case that jeancluduc LEFT OUT that the person supposedly guilty of fraud has been exonerated three times by Kuwaiti and International courts? see http://www.allbusiness.com/mining/oil-gas-extraction-crude-petroleum-natural/788804-1.html

Why is an extremist posting attacks? Where are the admins???

When did Wikipedia become a posting site for Islamic Extremists?76.109.17.236 10:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What is this story JC ?
JeanClauduc said any about any and always wrote lines about any, before now  this folowing  lines! all of this contents are available, right or no right false or not false, on the WEB on European Parliament report, on CIAO Reports; if you need I can investigate more for you and i can give links and stamped documents, when i see smoke probabely I see the fire behind the smoke. But you are right, the Wikipedia made by you Harold are similar than we can see on the web : a world of lies like my company; do you need some more instructive lies articles ? you can purchase some in USA near CIAo and Taylor Probably you paid to purchase lies ? HoHo, European Parliament report are free do you need some pages ? Nothing are old on the WEB, all are facts. You launch personnal attacks this are pleasant  go ahead again and again I have a lot of contents and pictures to advertise  for your profit probably Hollywood can be interested by the scenario to make a Thriller.

Take note I have a lot of friends also to daily advertise on our MDS International WiKi site

My apologies for the WiKi Reader about this above, I can not help.

Jean Claude Ducasse

Still MDSInternational are playing to change MDSinternational Wikipedia informations after Herostratus WiKi restauration. The IP adress is located in Taluyers at MDSInternational office ! I restore the Herostratus page

Software Cracking
Slowly one starts to understand all of the Vandalism and "LIES LIES." It seems there is something to hide here. 76.109.17.236 22:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The Lies about Piracy and the false Real Media site under the name of wwww.xingtech.info are made and hold by Harold Kirpatrick living in Palm City ,near Miami re=vert to original text:Jeanclauduc 13:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

IP address info: IP address: 76.109.17.236 (copy)

IP country: USA

IP Address state: IP Address city: palm city

ISP: Comcast Cable

Organization: Comcast Cable

We can provide more details if required and this from MDSi attorneys mail to mds@mds.fr to have attorney adress.Jeanclauduc 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

--- What xingtech.info is saying is absolutely right. As a former client of MDS international, and we were provided (by MDSi) in 2002 with the cracked software that is mentionned on xingtech.info web site. Exactly the same File. I confirm the screenshots of xingtech are right. --Mich.alonz 20:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC) FT

All the Xingtech's products were abandoned after the purchase by realnetwork. There is much site where everyone which can download free the old abandoned products of xingtech -- (This unsigned comment was posted by TrueTheTruth)

The allegations being made include changing copyright notices to mis-represent the actual author of the package. The screen shots show StreamWorks components with "Copyright©1995-1996 Xing® Technology Corporation" replaced with "Copyright©2002 M/D/S/ international".

Even if the software is "abandonware", changing the copyright notice is illegal and immoral. Perhaps the original author of the code doesn't want to spend the legal fees on a lawsuit. I think it's relevant if a company is falsely claiming ownership of somebody else's code.

--Bhimaji 19:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

+ It is not correct "TrueTheTruth". Real purchased Xingtech products for using the sources (not for abandoning them). Where did you get the information that Real abandoned Xingtech products ?? In addition www.xingtech.info shows that the software cracked by MDS international is concerning the StreamWorks SERVER (not player). The Xingtech products that are available for downloads on the web are concerning the Streamworks players and the 30 days demo version of StreamWorks server (without license number), There is no Xingtech StreamWorks server with license number available on the web for download. The streamworks server cracked by MDS international shows a serial number, and it seems that they are selling the same Xingtech serial number to all of the clients          --IPTVdev 21:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

+++Does Weregerbil work for this company?? 72.144.202.181 14:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Your question is bordering on unacceptable for these discussions. See WP:TALK. If you think there is a WP:COI issue here with certain editors, please discuss it on their individual talk pages, or consider reporting it on the Conflict of interest/Noticeboard if you believe the situation meets the noticeboard's guidelines. --Ronz 15:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering the best way to resolve the lack of secondary sources is. When the article was up for deletion, one of the issues raised was that there were very, very few secondary sources covering anything about MDSI. I thought that the verifiability tag was an appropriate compromise until further information was available. The allegations made against MDSI were not heresay or rumors; specific, direct claims were made, along with evidence. It appears that the software in question dates back to 1996 - I can't see Real Networks being very aggressive in pursuing the matter. Failing that, I don't see who would write a news article about it. The software is only available to people who buy very expensive communications systems - it's not something that a third party can verify by going to Best Buy.

I'm also concerned about the removal of the trademark "issues." MDSI is not a member of the WiMAX Forum: http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view/profile_search lists all the companies that are. Since their HyperWIMAX product is not actually WiMAX - only the WiMAX Forum can choose to give something that name - it seems appropriate to include it. Jean-Claude Ducasse, the founder of MDSI, has frequently edited the page to include references to his HyperWIMAX product.

Bhimaji 20:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There's little that can be done about the lack of secondary sources other than to wait for them to be published. So, is the current edit-warring just because of the legal proceedings?  Why not cite legal documents as primary sources?  Withoug secondary sources, it will have to be kept to a minimum to avoid any bias for either side. --Ronz 21:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there are no current legal proceedings between MDSI and Real Networks or Xingtech.

Regarding the legal dispute between MDSI and MDSA, the last document I've seen was the contempt of court finding in September 2006: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/MDSIContemptOrder.pdf I think the edit warring is going on because MDSI appears to still be marketing equipment that they're not allowed to sell. The court order says that any page listing MVDDS systems must include the disclaimer that they aren't for sale in the US. Also, the only trademark registration listed by MDSI is one that, it appears, they agreed to turn over to MDSA - HyCAnC. I have no idea who decided to capitalize it like that. I do find it a bit sad that people appear to be fighting over who gets that snappy product name.

I do not know the history leading up to the contempt order; it appears that many parts of the settlement were sealed. However, the contempt order does clearly state that MDSI shouldn't be doing things they are doing.

Bhimaji 21:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The court case was posted as a primary source ut another Wikipedia admin removed it. MDSI has a long history of cheating customers, software piracy, and trademark infringement. The WIMAX trademark is just one example. Several customers have left messages on the talkpages concerned. 72.144.202.181 23:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Unsourced attacks will be removed. Thank you for your contributions. Weregerbil 07:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately Bhimaji, the above comment is what some admins call 'discourse', they talk, you obey. Weregerbi has 'decided' that what is being written about is "Unsourced attacks", no more discourse, no more talk. TOE the line. I am really not sure why this is called a talk page and not "Admin lecture page." I guess there are Admins like Ronz who take their responsibility seriously, some who do not. 76.109.17.236 10:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I have not 'decided' anything. Please see WP:V. Unsourced attacks will be removed per policy. Thank you for observing Wikipedia policies in the future. Weregerbil 10:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not an admin, just an editor trying to stop this editwarring. --Ronz 15:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

xingtech.info is preaty clear. there is no doubt about the software cracking by this company. I am not sure MDS international is doing something legal with that.

Your Discusion about Real Software Cracking
Sorry your discussion are between you and only with Mr Harold Hirpatrick the builder of this story the maker of the false Real Xingtech and the big Mac chief of the gang stoling softwares, products, patents licences and clients to the Cie MDSinternational if you like to discuss about the case agains the Product Manager of MDS America the best are to ask to the French lawyer or to the French court in Lyon. About the case in Detroit read with great care the case invoked are make only by MDSamerica alone killing itself by stopping the chance to purchase new products new concepts from MDSinternational the results are clear: to expect to make some businesss now MDSamerica can only work with MDSAmerica product manager theft and more theft. This are clear only by reading our WEB site and our dealers WEB Sites, Read also all on the WEB about the various stories about the Holder of MDSInternational embezzing and siphoning funds from the MDSI and make your own idea of the situation; Mr JCD ( JCD Hate ,me !) can still play this stupid game, I have a lot of evidences and stories and pictures for WiKi available after each new attack from this not a gentlemen Jeanclauduc 21:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Patents
"Thank you Weregerbil, in answer to the personal attacks of Mr Jean-Claude Ducasse alias jean-claude it is easy to see our WEB site www.mds.fr and to mailto us and also to download the official TM and patents of MDSi http://www.mds.fr/news/Press%0Release%20MDS%20April%202006.pdf JC Ducasse MDSI CTO. Of course we will only tell the truth to the customers. You can write to fabrice10@ mac .com to get the name of our customers and check for yourself. Don't check on this software piracy"

JC Ducasse wrote the above but I do not see any patents on the MDS.fr web site. I see lots of claims but no patents. If fact, it is just as the article says, when you click on "Patents" on the MDS.FR web site, there is only a trademark listed. Doing a search on the USPTO shows only one trademark listed. Even the HyperGate so prominently displayed (I guess also illegally, is registered to another company. I,JC DUCASSE DO NOT WROTE ALL OF THIS CONTENTS, CONTENTS SUCH AS ( You can write to fabrice10@ mac .com to get the name of our customers and check for yourself. Don't check on this software piracy ) I write what I do not write and they do not write what I write. You also do not write this as I do. THEY WRITE IT ALL! comment was added by Jeanclauduc (talk • contribs) 16:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

As I follow the contributions of jeanclauduc, I notice that he keeps putting a ten year old news story into other articles. It seems strange that he would only include the ten year old part of the story and leave out the most recent parts. I guess it shows more lies. 76.109.17.236 10:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Personal opinions do not belong in this encyclopedia.  Please find reliable sources for your claims. --Ronz 23:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Please provide independent sources. --Ronz 01:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Patents Answer
On MDSi www.mds.fr WEB site the patent US number are displayed, everybody can obtain the full text but to help you search the patents and invention made by Jean-Claude Ducasse in USA you can find two patents one are loan by MDSinternational ( the advertised number on the WEB site) on USPTO follow this link:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=ducasse+jean-Claude&FIELD1=IN&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PG01 or search: 20060052078 Device for amplifying the signal from a receive antenna Jeanclauduc 17:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

POV
I've added a POV tag to the article because of editors' insistance on including original research and unreliable sources. Please do not make this article a battleground for your personal disputes. --Ronz 02:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Current state of article
Currently, we're in the middle of an edit war about information that is unverified by independent reliable sources, some of which is original research, and almost all of which is heavily biased without any sources to justify such bias in an encyclopedia article.

Please note that repeatedly violating these and other Wikipedia policies and guidelines in edits to articles can be considered to be vandalism.

Please read and try to follow the dispute resolution policy, rather than just editing the article to fit your perspective in defiance of the Wikipedia policies and guidelines, especially WP:EW, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NPOV, and WP:VAND. Thanks. --Ronz 16:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * An anonymous Domains by Proxy site whose sole purpose is to attack this company, is not reliable source compliant with Wikipedia's policies. It should not be used as the basis for any information in this article. Google search results should also not be used - it constitutes original research and should be removed.

This is all original research, unsuitable for this article. -- zzuuzz(talk) 22:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "MDSI appears to operate under a number of different names"
 * "Xingtech, a division of Real Networks has allegedly accused MDS International..."
 * "A search of patent registrations, show no patents.."
 * "the MDS International site lists a HyperWimax product that is an infringement on..."
 * Concur with above. I've also removed some unsupported categories: "Copyright infringement of software" which isn't even a real category, and "Copyright infringement", which is a topical category and not for accusations against corporate entities.  I'm still looking through the history on this train wreck.  Kuru  talk  22:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research? The list of related companies is original research? MDSI links to them directly off their home page. They list the MDSI founder as their owner. Some of them have MDS International logos on them.

If clicking on links from a company's home page is considered "original research", I don't know how there can be any meaningful content on Wikipedia.

Zzuuzz: I'm happy to see that you're willing to take part in some discourse here on this subject; I am disappointed that you chose to remove so much content without apparently even reading the linked citations.

Bhimaji 23:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So it should be easy to find an independent reference then. I removed a whole load of completely inappropriate allegations. Removing such claims doesn't need any discussion. -- zzuuzz(talk) 23:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To clarify then: You're saying that it is wrong for an article on Wikipedia to list corporate relationships that are prominently advertised on a particular company's web site unless somebody can find a news article or some similar source that verifies the company's claim?


 * Not all corporate relationships are considered newsworthy; RipOffs, my favorite holster company, was just purchased by US Armor. I haven't found any news articles referencing it. I only have the web sites of the companies in question to go by.


 * Regarding discussion before removal, I was objecting because it seems like you removed even entirely un-controversial material before you looked at any of the citations or links.


 * Bhimaji 23:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Based on the corporate site; the association with MDS appears to be conjecture - the front page merely says "links" and does not specify a relationship. Is there something deeper on the page that provides more information, or perhaps some sort of public corporate breakdown that could clear that up?  I'm afraid that "appears to operate under a number of different names" is not acceptable since it is an opinion.  I'd rather see some direct correlation and state it as such.  Kuru  talk  23:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll check into the details after dinner. I know that one of the sites had MDS International logos all over it, one of them had a "Contact Us" link that said, "Contact MDS International", and I'm pretty sure one of them had an "About Us" link that said the owner was Jean Claude Ducasse, the CTO / founder of MDSI.


 * Would something like, "MDSI operates a number of affiliated companies, including:" be appropriate? These separate entities are all separately findable by Google, for example, and somebody looking for information about them would, IMHO, be assisted by their inclusion in the MDSI article.


 * Bhimaji 00:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for the statement that these companies are operated by MDSI? E.g. "is owned by a person who owns another company" is not equivalent to "is operated by". I own shares in both McDonald's and Nokia, yet I wouldn't say one is operated by the other just because of me :-) Companies have the habit of registering trade marks and creating companies "just in case". Wikipedia is not the place to conduct original research into the property portfolio of a company without reliable sources that explain the relevance of those connections.
 * There appears to be a legal and/or business battle between this and another company, which manifests as a desire to turn this article into an attack piece (and the other company's article into advertising), all using unsourced gunk and primary sources at best. Wikipedia policy should be observed carefully. Since less than wholesome encyclopedic intent has been repeatedly demonstrated here, it is advisable to err on the side of caution and demand genuine reliable sources (per policy). Weregerbil 10:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Violation of WP:TALK by 76.109.17.236
Editing the comments of another editor to change their meaning is strictly forbidden by WP:TALK. I reverted the edit made this morning by, a Florida-based IP, who was altering the comments left here previously by User:Jeanclauduc, reversing the meaning of some of his statements. If you have something to say, add your OWN comments. EdJohnston 14:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

A Saved page for you
83.206.63.250 18:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

IP address & IP location (76.109.17.236):

IP address info: IP address: 76.109.17.236 (copy) IP country: United States IP Address state: IP Address city: Palm City IP latitude: 27.118799 IP longitude: -80.366600 ISP: Comcast Cable Organization: Comcast Cable

The Guy changing all and making MDSi site without our permission are Harold Kirpatrick CEO of MDS America this adress are the private Home MDSAmerica are located nearly in Stuart.

I am Jean-Claude Ducasse ( JeanClauduc before now I am probably Piracy by harold Kirpatick the ceo of MDS America based in Stuart Florida and in Palm city Florida I never altering any comments my comments are all altered by this company and by Fabrice the Product manager of MDS america now I sign only by My IP company server adress 83.206.63.250 18:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Pease read what I said back, before new MDSAmerica alteration ? Testimonies are lies and Mich Alonz our MDSI France Telecom Hyperboost Hypercable client never said any in WIKI and the copy of this false testimony made by Fabrice Ducasse using Mich Alonz name are send to the french FT lawyer by Michel Alonzo to sur this French Guy in the French court .83.206.63.250 18:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I copy this page before reverted by KIRPATRICK and I send you a copy. 83.206.63.250 18:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Xingtech software is legally distributed by MDSI?
User:Jeanclauduc offered this response when User:FayssalF asked him about the matter of the Xingtech Streamserver software. The way he phrased it makes it sound illegal:

''nous n'avons fait que changer le nom pour le commercialiser sous notre nom. Comme nous sommes une société française, les américains ne viendrons pas nous chercher et nous poursuivre.''

('All we did is change the name, to commercialize it under our name. As we are a French company, the Americans won't come here to prosecute us').

Let's hope that Jean-Claude is willing to clarify this a little further. EdJohnston 15:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

From conversations I have had concerning this, I suspect that Real Networks and/or the proper authorities are preparing to clarify this very shortly. 20:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.214.214.3 (talk • contribs).

All Talk are change by the Admin members of the gang and is full False Now
All in this pages of Talk are false the original TALK are still change and modified by WIKI admin working all for MDSAMERICA various account are made and my TALK or answers are modified in real time or in a short time after by Fabrice Ducasse the Product manager of MDSAmerica and Harold Kirpatrick the CEO of MDS america all of my Talk and informations and right  adresses are modified, Franckly WIKIPEDIA are a very bad system if what I write now are modified and also all testimonies  are lies if anybody have a problem this are easy to ask to the court to make case against us we wait this with pleasure.

All of this pages are shooted by the Baillif to give to the French court in Lyon for the criminal case against Fabrice Ducasse the product manager of MDSAMERICA stealing MDSinternational Hypercable and also for Breach of trust for the profit of Shaick Ali Khalifa Al Sabah Holder of Al Fawares and of MDSAmerica. Can you think mister's the false WIKI administrators if all said by this dishonest guys are right why the french court dismiss the Shaick ali 2 times and the Fabrice gang also 6 times for similar lies ! 83.206.63.250 17:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Conspiracy theories are usually plain nonsense, especially ones which say that all administrators are getting paid by some company. This talk page is not the place for testimony - it's for improving the article. Could I politely suggest, if you have no contributions to improve the article, then do not contribute to this talk page at all. Thanks. -- zzuuzz(talk) 20:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Can we nominate this article for deletion?
Per a recent discussion at the conflict of interest noticeboard, I would like to nominate this article for deletion. The reason is that we at Wikipedia are merely providing a venue for two contending parties to battle it out (MDSA and MDSI). Several COI-affected editors have already made what I consider to be blockable threats and vandalism to Talk page discussions. They should go and find a courtroom somewhere to fight one another, and they should cease vexing us. In the spirit of even-handedness, I would like to nominate both MDS International and MDS America for deletion. I realize that the notability of these companies is not open-and-shut here, but the legal problems for Wikipedia, and the potential paperwork and phone calls in the WP:OFFICE, would make this an expedient move. Some of us have already discovered how hard it is to find any reliable secondary sources for either company, so it's not as though they are both extremely famous. It has become a big struggle to keep defamatory material off the Talk pages, let alone the articles. Due to the legal threats the issue has already been posted at WP:AN/I.

I'd be in favor of recreating both articles if the two parties ever settle their legal differences, and start inviting each other over for tea, and I would welcome re-creation of both articles at that time. Please let me know your thoughts. Technically I can't even place the AfD banner on this article yet, since it's still protected, so it's desirable to get a consensus. If there is a consensus, I could ask an administrator to start the AfD. A previous AfD, held on 27 March, failed to reach consensus with 3 votes to delete and 2 votes to keep. That was before all the legal threats started. EdJohnston 23:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I support an AFD, and I suggest a discussion is not even nessisary to initiate it (though it is diplomatic!). The AFD itsself is the discussion. Even with the article being protected I have no doubt an edit request would be granted to add an AFD tag since it is not touching the article content ittself. Russeasby 03:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Follow up note. Actually, ideally the article could be changed to semi-protected, so durring the AFD editors have a chance to address address concerns brought up in the AFD.  I think its worthwhile appealing the protection for the sake of an RFD and making it very clear to the WP:COI editors that their edits will effect the outcome of the AFD. Russeasby 03:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was actually proposing the AfD in hopes of closing down the Talk page debate, which was producing constant legal threats. (No article implies no Talk page, thus no continuation of the discussion). So hoping that the article would improve was not among my objectives. I would not be happy continuing the evolution of the article unless administrators were willing to block everyone who has actually made a legal threat or practiced disruptive editing, and I think that would be a very upsetting process, that would make matters worse at least in the short term. So that's why I'd like to AfD it and forget it. EdJohnston 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * An AFD though is not just for getting rid of controversy or COI concerns. If nominated for deletion it will be (or should at least) considered on basis of notability and verifiability.  How much conflict surrounds it should not be a primary concern reguarding the discussion to keep or delete. Personally I think its unnotable enough to warrent an AFD, reguardless of the conflict, but even if ultimately found notable enough, an AFD wont hurt and may serve to resolve the issue sooner.  But it can only be deleted based on deletion guidelines and policy, not because of other concerns.  But doesnt WP:LEGAL apply here? Legal threats are a serious violation warrenting blocks, probably far more enforceable then WP:COI so far as I have seen(and you know I understand how hard it is to do much about WP:COI!).  Reguardless, I see fair reasoning for an AFD reguardless of the conflict. Russeasby 04:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to blocks per WP:LEGAL, but someone would have to collect the evidence and turn in the report. At least one named user and one IP would deserve to be cited, if I recall correctly. (I'm all worn out just from promoting the AfD idea, so I leave any pursuit of blocks to someone else). EdJohnston 13:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi there, my name is Fabrice I never edited any article on wikipedia. My name has been mentionned several times by jeanclauduc and by 83.206.63.250. I saw these talks today, and I am surprised about what is mentionned on my subject. I just want to confirm that NONE of the accusations in this talk (and the other ones) are true, I am not having a Gang or being member of a gang, I am not being sued by the french criminal court for anything, I am not "wanted" by the CIA or anybody else, and I never done anything illegal. Such talk are totaly useless on wikipedia, and I feel sory for the loss of time the editors have spent debating on these subjects due to these diffamations. These accusation are so ridiculous that I am not going to answer anymore or sue anyone. Fabrice --77.194.194.77 17:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please be fair though
Ed, Please be fair about this. As someone familiar with the MDS America side, there has not been any legal threats or calls to Wikipedia or letters to Wikipedia from MDSA. If you had really read this you would see that this has already been settled and MDSI held in Contempt of US Federal Court for not honoring that agreement. Think about it. Of course it is possible that one's largest investor who happens to be the Ex-President of OPEC, and One's US Agent, One's Board of Directors, and all of one's sons would all just conspire against one individual but what are the chances? (all of the above from jeanclauduc himself)

When MDS claimed that MDSI has been held in Contempt, there was a link to the courts web site and the Contempt order was uploaded to Wikipedia Commons, of all of the claims of FRENCH court action, did you see a shred of evidence? An attorney's name perhaps. The law firm? WizardOfWor 23:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You seem to have a single purpose account, and your edits have in general been quite unhelpful to building an encyclopaedia. . Your comments here are completely irrelevant to the article or the encyclopaedia. If you want to continue your argument against this company I suggest you do it elsewhere. -- zzuuzz(talk) 23:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This article has been nominated for deletion
Please see the discussion at Articles for deletion/MDS International (2nd nomination). I also put notices of the AfD at WP:AN/I and WP:COIN. You are welcome to join the deletion discussion and give your opinion. If you can log in before participating, your vote will carry more weight, under the policy of WP:AFD (search for 'unregistered' in that page). Your reasons and arguments will be carefully considered regardless of whether you have a logged-in account. If you are an employee of MDS America or MDS International, or have an affiliation with either one, mentioning that in your comment would help to reduce any concerns about conflict of interest.

At this time there is no proposal to delete the article on MDS America, since it has not led to any legal threats. EdJohnston 01:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

What said user FayssalF
Really do you think that the CTO of MDSinternational are so stupid to said this ? This are again made by WiZardoFwor familiar with MDSAMERICA because CEO of this company and by Fabrice Ducasse the product manager of MDSAmerica This guys are sued in France in the Criminal court of Lyon for Theft and Breach of trust; I know this very Well because I am Share Holder of MDSinternational for more of 35% of this company, and because Wikipedia attack and lies about MDSi new evidences  against the same guys are provided to the judge 89.224.157.48 16:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

+RE: "Really do you think that the CTO of MDSinternational are so stupid to said this ?" If the CTO of MDSInternational" is the same person who wrote the above comment, my vote is YES!

At least the admins of Wikipedia should start to realize how crazy this is.

"I am Share Holder of MDSinternational for more of 35% of this company, and because Wikipedia attack and lies about MDSi new evidences against the same guys are provided to the judge"So to understand the above, a 'shareholder' has printed out the pages if Wikipedia "the Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" and is providing this printout as evidence in a "criminal case" in France. What pray tell, was the crime?

While wikipedian FayssalF can be brusque, I hardly think anything he has written could be categorized as a lie. 65.2.150.213 17:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * How is this discussion relevant to the article or appropriate per WP:TALK? --Ronz 00:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

FayssalF paid by MDSAMERICA?
Again the CEO of MDS America change the talk inside this page! I think fayssalf are not the author of this testimony in French but same do Kirpatrick before, this are again a false testimony lies and theft the specialities of this Gang. I am not the CTO or CEO of MDSinternational but I hold some shares of this company and I know the full and right story: XINGTECH.ORG Proxy site are a false site made by MDS America Kirkpatrick with of course the help of the Fabrice Ducasse product Manager of MDSAmerica.

We have tons of similar stories made by this Guys siting on a mountain of IRAKI Dollars.

Every day on each new change on MDSi Site or discussion we add informations about MDSAmerica Owned by Al Fawares Kuwait company hold by Irakis receiving funds from the US Pentagon to rebuild Irak? or to send billions to MDS Operations and MDS America ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.224.178.100 (talk) 14:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Relevance
There is much anxiety amongst Wikipedia admins and editors here because of Legal threats being casually and continually thrown out on the talk page. This article will never improve if people with NPOV are afriad to edit the article rationally. There must be some reassurance that all of the SUE WIKIPEDIA and "evidences for French Criminal Court" and Judges are just bluster, that is my opinion. 02:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.150.213 (talk • contribs)

Talk page cleanup
I propose moving the following sections to the archives because they're off-topic and inappropriate per WP:TALK: --Ronz 14:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What is this?
 * Wacky comments
 * Is this a Joke
 * Islamists Extremists in Kuwait said Wizardofwor
 * What is this story JC ?
 * Software Cracking
 * Your Discusion about Real Software Cracking
 * Patents
 * Patents Answer
 * A Saved page for you
 * All Talk are change by the Admin members of the gang and is full False Now
 * What said user FayssalF
 * FayssalF paid by MDSAMERICA?
 * Relevance