Talk:MERU, Holland

Institution not place
MERU stand for Maharishi European Research University and is not a place. MERU had its campus on grounds of the former Kolleg St. Ludwig in Vlodrop, but there is no plave called "MERU". The lead needs to be changed to reflect this. --BwB (talk) 10:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "MERU, Holland" is a site, a property or a campus, but not a political entity. The current article necessarily covers several closely related topics, including the various tenants, past and present, of the location. The existence of the property is unquestionable. "MERU, Holland" seems to be a common usage, especially within the movement.    Will Beback    talk    11:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For example, we have articles on estates like the Bush compound. If someone wants to split off the Kolleg St. Ludwig material that'd fine; it's notable on its own.   Will Beback    talk   


 * Here's a description from the RAAM prospectus in 2006:
 * Dr Feldman is a resident of Meru (the campus of Maharishi European Research University) near Vlodrop, the Netherlands, since 1991. 
 * Capital of the Global Country of World Peace, the Netherlands: Office and Residential Complex, Meru, the Netherlands; 40 hectares; 17,000 square metres of new construction built or planned. 
 * So the movement seems to regard it as a place, a capital, a campus, and an office and residential complex. It might be clearer if we add that to the lead.   Will Beback    talk    20:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * As you like, but the initials MERU stand for "Maharishi European Research Univ". That is the origin of this word. --BwB (talk) 13:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. That's what it says in the lead.   Will Beback    talk    17:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No it does not say this. --BwB (talk) 19:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe I don't understand your point. The lead now says:
 * MERU, Holland, is a residential and office complex which includes ... a campus of Maharishi European Research University (MERU)...
 * Is that incorrect?   Will Beback    talk    20:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to go with BwB on this one. I don't see any mention of MERU as a placename in any independent, reliable, third-party sources. Independent sources invariably use Vlodrop as the location name for this compound. If the only people who call this place MERU are the press release writers at Global Good News, I can see noting that as a potentially interesting bit of trivia in some other article, but it doesn't appear to justify or support a separate Wikipedia article on MERU as a place. As for MERU the educational institution, pretty much the only mention you get of it in mainstream press is a mention now and again that so-and-so claims a degree from there. Based on the lack of available source material, it probably does not meet the threshhold of notability necessary for its own article. Given that MERU formerly consisted, from all accounts, of nothing more than a couple of desks at a hotel in Seelisburg, to call this compound the MERU campus would appear to be a bit of hyperbole. As near as I can tell, MERU at Vlodrop is not accredited anywhere, appears not to have even a website, and I can find no information whatsoever on its student body, faculty, courses or curriculum, degrees offered, or anything else one would associate with a typical institution of higher learning. It appears to be rather more ephemeral and ethereal than a brick and mortar campus.Fladrif (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the issue is about "placename". I believe there's no question about the existence of this property. Press reports usually describe the Bush Compound as Kennebunkport, the nearest village. But there is enough material on that estate to give it an article separate from the town article. I don't see how we could move this material to Vlodrop, but if there's a consensus for it we can do so. One of the reasons I created this page is that the property isn't even nearest to Vlodrop - it's nearer to Vlodrop-Station. In other languages, there is an article about Kolleg St. Ludwig with the MERU material added in at the end. This is the reverse. The Maharishi residence has been discussed in more articles in English than the old college. The battle over the demolition of the old building has received considerable attention in German and Dutch sources, and even a few English ones. Also, we don't say that this is "the" campus of MERU, it's just "a" campus. I agree that the four universities based at this location are all fairly insubstantial, which is why the only get a limited amount of space. I can't even find any websites for them. (There is a website for the Swiss MERU). If anyone can find more information we can add it.   Will Beback    talk    22:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm with Flad on this one. MERU as a place is not a real or noteworthy place. MERU for Maharishi European Research University. No need for Wiki article on this "non-existent" place. --BwB (talk) 13:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My point isn't that there shouldn't be an article about this place, it's that the name of the place isn't MERU. At least not according to mainstream sources. You want to call it "GCWP Headquarters - Vlodrop" or "Maharishi Residence - Netherlands" or something else like that, that's fine. But calling this place "MERU" after an institution that, if it exists at all in real life, likely takes up 1% of this compound at best, would be like calling Smith Center Kansas "MCU". Fladrif (talk) 14:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * @Bwb: This property is not a "non-existent place". It can be easily found in aerial photographs. Two other Wikipedia projects have articles on it (albeit with different names and focuses). A number of news articles have been written about the activities there, especially the efforts to demolish the old building.
 * @Fladif: I'm open to other names. I found that it is sometimes referred to as the "Maharishi compound", but that name is also applied to the Rishikesh ashram and to the NOIDA property. While the references may be internal, there are many to "MERU, Holland". I realize that it does seem odd that the very small university has become the namesake for the complex, but it has. While I think that Ghits are a very crude measure, they are often relied upon for choosing the most common usage for an article title when there are several choices.
 * "MERU, Holland" 4,460/234 /
 * "Maharishi compound" 34/20 /
 * "Maharishi residence" 29/12 /
 * "GCWP headquarters" No results
 * So if there's a name for this compound that gets more Ghits than the current title, I'd be happy to use it.   Will Beback    talk    22:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with the GHITS on MERU is that almost all of them are GGG press releases. Using Google News instead, you're going to find Maharishi residence, Vlodrop or Netherlands most often. Fladrif (talk) 00:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Vlodrop" and "Netherlands" won't work as there are already articles by those titles. "Maharishi residence" is a bit ambiguous too, as it may refer to the particular building rather than to the property as a whole. Also, it is mostly used by TM movement insiders. Of those, several say that Maharishi's residence is in MERU. I've seen a very few sources using "Maharishi International Capital". Aside from rarity, the only problem with that is that it's so generic. I'll point again to Bush compound - a title chosen despite the fact that most news sources refer to it as "Kennebunkport". That compound is a discrete property with a notable history. Unlike feudal realms, most properties in modern society don't have formal names and that makes this more difficult.   Will Beback    talk    01:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, I haven't gotten around to adding this to the article, but more than one outside source says that the owner of the property is the MERU Foundation (Stichting Maharishi European Research University). While this is the English Wikipedia, it's worth noting that the Google results for German and Dutch language sites shows "MERU" appeears often. (An older source says it was originally purchased by the Maharishi Foundation, which is usually seen as a UK/Channel Islands outfit. I don't know whether the reporter was lazy and didn't give the full name, or if it was transferred from one foundation to another.)    Will Beback    talk    02:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's an outside source that refers to MERU. I think it's a Limburg-centered tourism site. This site refers to "St. Ludwig / MERU".    Will Beback    talk    23:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, you've convinced me. Fladrif (talk) 00:05, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I did put some thought into the title, and couldn't find a better one. I'm still open to moving it to a better title if one can be found.   Will Beback    talk    01:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Other options are "MERU, Vlodrop, Holland" or "MERU, Vlodrop". They only get a few Ghits but they're more precise and they incorporate "Vlodrop".   Will Beback    talk    10:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

World Federation of Traditional Leaders
Why is this a notable event worth mentioning in the article? --BwB (talk) 10:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It was reported in a couple of media sources and attended by at least one notable leader, and presumably others. It was described as the first annual event and I came across a recent GGN article about the recent tenth anniversary, but it isn't clear if there have been other meetings of the federation. We could add more, but that would seem like excess weight.    Will Beback    talk    10:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not noteworthy. --BwB (talk) 10:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that meant to be a nuanced argument? It's not very convincing. ;)    Will Beback    talk    11:01, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Details off topic?
In the section on the Maharishi's former residence, we have the text: "In later years, the Maharishi rarely left his two-room quarters in order to preserve his health and energy. He used videoconferencing to communicate with the world and with his advisors, including those in the same building. " This seems off topic and irrelevant to the discussion of the building. I propose that it be deleted. Comments? --BwB (talk) 20:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there are several pieces of off topic info in the article, some of the photos should be deleted IMO and it also may have some WP:UNDUE sections. However, I think what would be best, is if we have some fresh eyes on the article. That seemed to be very beneficial for the Golden Domes article which had similar problems. I'll see if any of those editors would be willing to have a look at this article and give some input.-- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 16:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Focus of the article
The focus of this article is the branch campus of MERU located in Holland which contains buildings and residence for various associated entities and faculty etc. not unlike the Maharishi University of Management campus in the USA. The main thrust of the current content is the history of the property ie its former owners, usage, university founding and development of the campus. As a result I have edited what was a very jumbled and confusing lead, to reflect this. In addition I have re-organized the sections of the article in chronological order, which is common on Wikipedia articles and also more reader friendly. In addition, I have changed the section titles to take advantage of more neutral phrasing, the kind that is commonly seen on university articles. Lastly, I have added a summary paragraph to the top of the History section. I am happy to discuss my changes or further proposals for improving the article with any interested editors.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Change name of article?
Perhaps we should change the name of this article, since Maharishi's house is apparently not located in the region of The Netherlands known as Holland. We could change to MERU, The Netherlands. TimidGuy (talk) 11:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC) We can make geographical corrections within the article but the topic/subject is self described as MERU Vlodrop Holland or MERU Holland. MERU Vlodrop Holland Global Good News -- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 16:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Coatrack
I just did a quick check of about half the sources in the article and to my surprise none of the secondary sources mention MERU. I'm going to do a more thorough examination of the article but it appears that MERU maybe just be a coatrack on which to hang information about the Maharishi and his movement. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

After examining all 35 citations in the article I found that 21 of the 35 citations do NOT mention MERU Holland or MERU or Maharishi European Research University. That means that 60% of the citations in the article do not mention the article's subject. Out of the remaining 13 citations I was able to access 10 of them which contained the term MERU or Maharishi European Research University. However, none of the sources contained more than one or two sentences on MERU and half of them were Maharishi web sites. Here is the overview of my findings:
 * Citations that mention MERU, Holland or Maharishi European Research University: # 1 (official web site), #2 (GeoHack), #6 (Carl Olson book—one sentence), #7 (book—one sentence), #15 (Maharishi brochure—three sentences), #16 (The Hindu—one sentence), #18 (in German –RP Online), #25 (Maharishi web site—one sentence), #33 (Maharishi Good News web site—3 sentences)
 * Citations that did NOT mention MERU, Holland or Maharishi European Research University : #3 (College St. Ludwig-Webcite), #4 (Austin Statesmen), #5 (NY Times),  #9 (MUM web site), #10 (Pub Med), #1 (Maharishi Ayurveda web site), #12 (Maharishi Purusha web site), #13 (Maharishi Vedic Univ web site), #14 (Independent), #17 (LA Times), #20 (Daily Mail), # 21 (The Guardian-Dec 2001),   #22 (Daily Mail Dec 2001),  #23 (NY Times),  #24 (The Guardian—Aug 2005), #26 (Lola Williamson book), # 28 (Hindustan Times), #29 (Reuters), 31 (Reuters), 32 (Maharishi Vedic Architecture web site), #34 (photo-no text), #35 (photo-dead link)
 * *These sources I could not access but from the titles they seem to have little if anything to do with MERU:
 * Cite 8--COBB, CHRIS (October 30, 1993). "Party of the flying yogics gets a free ride from the taxpayers". The Vancouver Sun. p. A.10.
 * Cite 19--Maharishi Mahesh Yogi" (Obituary). The Times (London (UK)). February 7, 2008.
 * Cite 27--Turn on, tune in, make a killing". South China Morning Post (Hong Kong). February 18, 1996. p. 4.
 * Cite 30-- O'Brien, Tim (April 15, 1991). "Title:Magical, mystical Veda Land aims to enlighten the world. (Maharishi Veda Land)". Amusement Business 103 (15). p. 3.
 * -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 20:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing this research. Maybe this content should be merged into other articles, including Transcendental Meditation movement. Overall, the topic of the article is confusing -- whether it's about MERU or about the TM movement headquarters located near Vlodrop since 1990. TimidGuy (talk) 10:50, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Aside from being a coatrack, there is no indication that MERU the university or the TM headquarters meets WP:NOTABILITY or WP:CORP to the degree that either topic deserves a stand alone article. I therefore propose that the various aspects of the article be merged into the Transcendental Meditation movement and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi articles as appropriate.-- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 15:53, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The content specifically related to MERU, The Netherlands, could be merged into Global Country of World Peace. TimidGuy (talk) 10:31, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Any objections to splitting up this coatrack and merging it with relevant articles such as Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation in education and Global Country of World Peace??? I'll wait a few more days before taking action. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 15:54, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

To flesh out my proposal I suggest:
 * Content about the University be moved to Transcendental Meditation in education
 * Content about administrative headquarters be moved to Transcendental Meditation movement
 * Content about the Maharishi's residcence be moved to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

My plan is to leave behind a stub article on College St. Ludwig. I'm still waiting to see if there are any objections at the destination articles. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:20, 8 April 2013 (UTC) ✅ (see thread below) --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Source
I've removed this cite as it contains two dead links and no indication as to who the publisher is or how we might find the source to verify the info: And this one too
 * cite web|url=http://www.netlink.de/meru/home.htm|archivedate=April 3, 2004|archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20040403233338/http://www.netlink.de/meru/home.htm|title=Deutsche MERU-Gesellschaft <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ref>Some sources say Gray graduated from Maharishi International University instead of MERU.</ref<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. I've also just removed John Gray from earlier in the article. The sources are a bit of a mess and include a dead link. Per BLP I'd like to make sure we have RS for the claims made about Gray. I'll look at the John Gray article too, tomorrow, and clean up the refs on claims made.(olive (talk) 02:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC))
 * I think the issue is that some sources say Gray got a degree from MUM and others say he got a degree from MERU. It would be good to take a closer look and resolve it. I agree that saying in this article: "possibly John Gray" is not the way to handle it.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> •  Talk  • 14:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, as I said above I'll look at the refs today and clean this up. In my mind, its a BLP issue, so until the refs are cleaned up, removal seemed best.(olive (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC))

Of these refs:

ref name="Time">Time magazine Tower of Psychobabble, Elizabeth Gleick, June 16, 1997, Retrieved July 2011

ref name=Hampson>

ref name="NY Post">WRITER'S EDUCATION FROM MARS|New York Post|November 13, 2003|page=012

I can access only Hampson. I'm still working on accessing the rest.(olive (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC))


 * thanks for looking into it. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Merger
Today I merged the majority of this article into the Organizations/Maharishi Foundation section of the Transcendental Meditation movement article and a few sentences were moved to Transcendental Meditation in education Europe/MERU. The remainder of the article was moved to Kolleg St. Ludwig which was previously redirected to this article. This article, MERU Holland, now redirects to the Organizations/Maharishi Foundation section of the Transcendental Meditation movement. Best, --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 17:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)