Talk:MS Paint Adventures/Archive 1

Regarding PROD
I object to this PROD. First, Google News results are completely irrelevant to webcomics. I'd imagine very few well established webcomics have any Google News hits. Second, if you're going by Google hits as a mark of notability, I'm not exactly sure what you're doing. I'm not sure how you're defining "substance". Further, if we go by sheer volume, it has even more hits than other webcomics with articles on them, such as Wondermark or Dinosaur Comics. Also, I'm pretty sure Google hits have never been a guideline for notability. If you really want to delete this article, you're going to need a better excuse. -- Λύκος  09:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

(Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm doing, this is the first time I've ever tried to post something here)

I'm not sure if this will help, but here is a reference to the website of bestselling author Patrick Rothfuss about MS Paint Adventures

Apologies for having no clue what I'm doing - I hope this helps. --67.8.172.44 (talk) 04:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm also not a veteran Wikipedia editor, but I object to this being considered not notable. The site has a fairly forum where artists of varying caliber, from completely amateur to very impressive, are getting a chance to expose themselves with the same kind of storytelling as the MSPA itself has. Even assuming that the MSPA site itself does not qualify as notable, at the moment in particular, it is likely that it will spawn other similar comics and webcomics in the future, at which point it will likely be of note even if only historically.

I don't know how you came up with the metric of google hits or google news articles in terms of relevance, as news is only likely to come into play with popular culture, and measuring the merit of an artistic site (which comics qualify as) is typically done by interested parties, not third parties, as the value is understandably subjective. Until or unless the editors in question show themselves to be able to determining the merit relative to the genre in total, I don't consider them to be in a position to make this kind of suggestion. 98.166.252.74 (talk) 19:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Noteriety
Unfortunately, popularity is not (directly) a criteria for a stable article. Only the effects of popularity, such as media refrences. MS Paint Adventures just isn't mentioned significantly in any media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.155.125 (talk) 07:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I object to this notion on the grounds that you used "any media". MS Paint Adventures is fairly often referenced in notable webcomics. Questionable Content, Overcompensating, Dinosaur Comics. Probably more, given I'm working off of comics I read. Would you like links? 24 December, 2009, Jon Jones —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.154.95 (talk) 08:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Wikipedia notability is not inherited. Each article must establish its own notability.   ttonyb  (talk) 15:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but MSPA appears to qualify for two of those categories, not just one. I don't know what the issue is. Could you explain why being noted and linked by some of the top webcomic artists in the game is not exactly what the third possible qualification asks for? And why the interview of the author, primarily being about the comic, by a noted author, does not fit the first qualification to a T? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.154.95 (talk) 04:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to leave comments pertaining to this article's notability, it might make sense you leave it on Articles for deletion/MS Paint Adventures so that your comments are taken into account when the AfD closes. -- Λύκος  06:06, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

2010 October talk
What happened to Ryanquest? --129.93.100.25 (talk) 18:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed, one presumes, because it's nothing more than a gag. It's ignorable. cartoonmoney (speak!) "Be seeing you." 21:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Should SBaHJ be mentioned at all? 99.253.198.49 (talk) 03:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

What, enough sources turned up for someone to jump through the hoops and found the article? Happy days and jubilation! Congratulations all around. There have actually been several false starts: a newcomer would turn up, start the article, and be met with the great Wikipedia greeting tradition of half a dozen impersonal banners and deletion. I moved these onto an user's subpage on request, and have now returned them to page history. And sure, mention SBaHJ. Just make sure that nobody starts writing plot summaries. That way lies madness. --Kiz o r  21:33, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Awesome
When did this get an article? What an awesome webcomic, it totally deserves this. I was thinking about making it but couldn't find any sources, kudos to whoever did.NexCarnifex (talk) 00:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Too long
This article is much to long and full of fancruft. I think the entire Art Section should be deleted, I just don't see why anyone would care about that if they didn't read the comic. A description of the different adventures is fine, but the other stuff should go in order to remove fancruft, and maybe even some information taken from those descriptions. Nex Carnifex (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? It looks pretty tidily-written to me. I've seen way bigger messes of webcomic articles... 67.164.60.27 (talk) 07:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I edited it Nex Carnifex (talk) 11:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Should Homestuck Have Its Own Page?
I believe that Homestuck should have its own page. Homestuck has grown larger than all of the other adventures combined. Plus there are many characters (I started a characters page, but they now redirect to MS Paint Adventures) as well as many elements and locations. It's practically on the scale of a Harry Potter book. LordHyper (talk) 20:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC)LordHyper

While I don't agree with your sense of scale, I will agree that Homestuck has become a phenomenon on its own. If you think Homestuck should have its own page, I suggest you create it. I will gladly support the endeavor. ViniTheHat (talk) 17:22, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I saw that someone tried to go ahead and make a separate Homestuck article a couple days ago, however it was removed soon after due to 'notability'. Admittedly the initial attempt was not the best, with overemphasis on character description and nothing else (and further than that, much more emphasis placed on describing the Trolls than the Kids, to the point of imbalance of article focus). But still, and this is just my own opinion, I really get the feeling that Homestuck (while certainly not Harry Potter scale of notability) has gotten well beyond the point of popularity where it likely does need to have its own page. Although I would only be citing something that the author himself said on his Tumblr, the fact he anticipated around 2 million views alone for the End of Act 5 flash speaks volumes to how much attention and traffic the website gets, much less due only to Homestuck. Alexa Traffic Rankings, while not perhaps the most accurate all the time, further solidify that Homestuck is also the primary reason people go to MS-Paint Adventures, with the plurality of search queries that send people to the page being 'homestuck' (about 36%, with 'ms paint adventures' being a distant 2nd with 10%). I've been out of the loop for way too long concerning Wikipedia rules, guidelines, and proper coding/editing/page creating to try and do anything, sadly. Still, I figured I would comment and hope to get something of a discussion going concerning this, and see if anyone else may have some more thorough or researched comments either for or against this. --Resident Lune (talk) 01:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Homestuck panel.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion
ive tweeted andrew hussie to see if he'll grant permission for the image, since its his. ViniTheHat (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because it has had non-trivial coverage by Workbook Project, as defined by the web notability page. A link to the nontrivial coverage is here. http://workbookproject.com/blog/2009/01/25/culture-hacker-how-problem-sleuth-turns-a-comic-into-a-game/--74.171.73.120 (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What makes you think the Workbook Project is sufficiently notable that mention of this topic in that project protects it from db-web. I added a notability tag for further discussion.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

It's the longest web comic on the Internet and with an average of 600,000 unique views daily it's more widely read than other comics that have articles on Wikipedia, such as Daily Dinosaur Comics, which has fewer references from outside sources. I think that at least qualifies this article not to be speedy deleted. 173.57.49.119 (talk) 08:37, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

There are several newspapers cited here... this seems like just another frivolous anti-webcomic deletion request. Endovior (talk) 23:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur with Endovior. As such, I'm going to take the liberty of removing the tag. --Special Operative MACAVITYDebrief me 09:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the notion that this page should be deleted is ludicrous. It is an artistic endeavor with cultural significance. People bring up Homestuck in average conversation during their everyday lives. How does that make it irrelevant, especially in comparison to the countless other arguably trivial articles on Wikipedia? Should the article about Charlie Brown also be deleted? Can you prove that it has cultural significance? Of course not, because such a thing is too subjective to define. With so many users clearly putting so much effort into this article page, we should err on the side of maintaining content over deletion. We should be asking for compelling evidence that it is worthy of deletion, rather than placing the burden of proof on the fans of the comic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.67.23.197 (talk) 11:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
It's even less notable then other Web-content like Arby 'n' The Chief, in which it doesn't meet criteria to have a page. Jman98 (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I came to this page because I heard people talking about it in everyday conversation and I wanted to know more about it. Isn't that what encyclopedia articles are for? Therefore, it is clearly notable, if it has become part of the common culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.67.23.197 (talk) 11:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Once again, stuff like Arby 'n' The Chief has been discussed in everyday conversation, yet isn't allowed to have a page. This is no exception. Jman98 (talk) 01:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It isn't even a good article anyway, people keep adding fancruftNex Carnifex (talk) 16:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * At this point MSPA works have been available for-- seemingly rather successful-- sale for some time. It's a commercial success that currently supports the author as his full time job. The main page is currently racking up over 3.5 million hits a day (at least, according to their advertisers). It's an original work that has, in turn, spawned at least one thousand individual "fan adventures" of varying length. Its drawing power ended up crashing one of the internet's most trafficked entertainment websites. It's pretty much the only collection of its medium that's achieved any real success. What makes it any less notable than, for example, Ctrl+Alt+Del? Burnet: A Life?... Badger Badger Badger? I'm not at all familiar with Arby 'n' the Chief-- maybe it does deserve its own page? But the removal of a "cat" page wouldn't necessarily mean the "dog" page is irrelevant, as well. 50.47.103.13 (talk) 17:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether it is or isn't a good article has nothing to do with notability. In this case, we're talking about a self-sustaining webcomic which gets more searches than most of the webcomics mentioned here. If a webcomic with more than fifty thousand fans (this is just the number who have signed up for the community forum, far more people than that read the comic) weren't notable, Wikipedia would be capped at a thousand pages and articles like this wouldn't have even been considered. Marbles1136 (talk) 15:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * None of those arguments are relevant to notability. We don't base notability on webhits, forum members, likes on facebook, etc. We base it on significant coverage by reliable third party sources which are understood to confer notability. This article was properly deleted before and restored without satisfying the reason for being deleted. It should have been speedied. The only news paper articles here, are college newspapers (which traditionally don't confer notability on wikipedia), and trivial mentions in other publications where someone mentions wearing a costume based on this IP, that's it. There is zero notability here.--Crossmr (talk) 03:22, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether this counts as a reliable source, but Know Your Meme reports that Homestuck is extremely popular on the internet, and that it was big enough to crash two major websites (Newgrounds and Megaupload) at one point due to sheer traffic alone. This site, which is operated by the government of the Australian state of Victoria, also reports that Homestuck is "skyrocketing in popularity."  Come to think of it, that latter is probably the most reliable source yet.  Wehpudicabok (talk) 21:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Also Cracked. Wehpudicabok (talk) 21:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * My issue is, how can you argue that MS Paint Adventures in not notable when there are so many other articles that barely have any work on them and may be of dubious notability themselves? What is it that makes MSPA less notable than, say a weekly local Canadian newspaper or some crazy chemical thing? Granted, it's not the best written article on the internet itself, but that's the magic of Wikipedia. Eventually, over time, it will be crafted by various writers into something that readable and of some informational merit, just like every other article on this website. The other problem is, Wikipedia isn't just supposed to be a repository of information; it's supposed to be a repository of culture. To deny the culture that MSPA has created is mere conceit. The fact that it is presented in an online medium (as opposed to say some relatively unknown TV show or anime that was not presented online) denies the cultural impact of the internet and creates a strange dichotomy between the internet and other mediums that, quite frankly, doesn't exist any more. (See: Penny Arcade, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog) In any case, when something has more than 2 million regular readers internationally, that alone should constitute notability. If it doesn't, then Wikipedia should really re-examine what constitutes notability, because there is something very wrong there. Bonzi77 (talk) 16:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Andrew Hussie has been interviewed by the Stanford University Digital Humanities Specialist regarding his work on MSPA and its place in internet culture. The Toronto Comic Arts Festival reports that Hussie was invited to attend for the past two years.  I'm going to try and work these into the article to help establish notability.  I'm still a fairly inexperienced editor and would like some help, but I think it's safe to say that notability has been established.  Wehpudicabok (talk) 06:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Seperate Page for Andrew?
Andrew Hussie is a person AND famous among the internet community. I believe he deserves more recognition, as this article barely even mentions him. If not him, then Homestuck at least. Irockz (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of Hussie having much notability outside of this project, so I think a section on him within this page should be sufficient. Wehpudicabok (talk) 08:34, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Overhaul
I've overhauled the article with some of the secondary sources I cited here, and have removed the "primary sources" and "original research" templates, since I believe the article has now satisfied these criteria. However, I'm not sure whether notability has been established, despite what I said above. It is difficult to know when a webcomic (or any comic, for that matter) can be considered "notable," since it's such an oft-overlooked medium. It's especially tricky with MSPA, since this comic hasn't had as long as others to permeate the culture. What does the community think about notability now? Wehpudicabok (talk) 05:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Homestuck summary
"brings them into a whole new universe, containing a world of teenage trolls" Really? Doesn't make sense for me. The troll session is seperate, and technically, the troll session is what created the kid's world in the first place. If anything, the troll session 'contains' the kid's session, not the other way around. Either way, the summary is flawed.--84.137.107.251 (talk) 20:10, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The Homestuck summery needs to be rewritten. The tone could be perceived as verging on non-neutral POV, and the structure of the sentences are weird. LG Rocket (talk) 06:41, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Chopped part of the Homestuck Summary
"As the longest comic currently hosted on MS Paint Adventures, Homestuck has developed a complicated and well-wound plot over it's three-year-plus making. The first two to three acts consist mostly of early plot involvement that sets up for later plot ideas, and many a line or event that is referenced later on in the comic. Act 4 sees the plot thicken and begin to get complicated, especially with the additional development of 'The Exiles', surviving members of the Dark and Light kingdoms who previously waged war between themselves, and a lengthy appearance from majority of the Trolls. Act 5's main focus is the trolls. They are all legitimately introduced and developed, and further interact with the kids. Also revealed are a few of the Trolls' strange customs such as their odd ways of courtship. (Quadrants, which are made up of Red Romance, Black Romance, Ashen and Pale. Depending on which quadrant a pair of Trolls are in, determines the nature of their relationship.) The biggest example being Karkat- the Troll represented by the Cancer symbol- who preposition's John for a Black Romance, which consists of a non-platonic relationship based on the feeling of Hate. Red Romance, like Black Romance, is a sexual relationship. The difference being that a Red-Rom, or 'Matespritship' is built on the feeling of pity. Pale feelings are more like a friendship than anything, although this is not a sexual relationship, (nor is Ashen) it is still a romantic involvement. The main role of a Pale partner is to provide council and emotional stability to their 'Moirail'. Ashen is linked directly with Black-Rom, or 'Kismesistude'. In order to be in an Ashen quadrant, a Troll must be a sort of mediator, or 'Auspistice', to a pair of potential Kismeses. Act 5 concludes with the long-awaited "End Of Act 5" flash, '[S] Cascade'. It goes for roughly 13 minutes and had to be uploaded to Newgrounds and MegaVideo before the MSPA website, so the influx of viewers did not crash the site. However, Hussie clearly underestimated the amount of potential viewers, as both Newgrounds and MegaVideo crashed due to the amount of traffic to that particular area of the site. Act 6 begins with the introduction of the Alpha/Post Scratch kids, who are simply older versions of the original 4 kids to play the SBurb game. However, it is not a simple trip back in time, the circumstance of 'The Scratch' was that the original kids and their paradox parents switched places in their respective timelines to create an alternate universe. 2 of the the original kids and the remaining trolls, to avoid ceasing to exist, embark on a 3-year journey on a meteor that is headed toward post-Scratch Earth, as they simultaneously attempt to avoid the Black Agent, Jack Noir, who is pursuing them. The other 2 kids, John and Jade (along with the entire populations of the planets Skaia, Prospit and Derse from the pre-Scratch universe) are headed the same direction, but on a giant battleship, which Jade sent crashing through the 4th Wall ('Fenestrated Plane') with her newly acquired God-Tier powers of manipulating space.

Homestuck is by far the most popular comic in the MS Paint Adventures series. At times, the sheer volume of traffic the comic takes in can overwhelm the website's servers; in order to avoid this when uploading a particularly important Flash animation, Hussie asked another website, Newgrounds, to host it for him – however, that site was also crashed under the comic's traffic. Afterward, Hussie apologized using his Twitter and said that the animation would be available for download on the website Megaupload. Even then, the traffic to Megaupload crashed that website as well. The comic brought the song I'm A Member Of The Midnight Crew by Eddie Morton to internet fame."

Don't care to rangle this into a usable section, not convinced that this rambling incoherence is necessary, seriously what the heck use does this serve to anyone that isn't already well aware of the subject? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.237.94.3 (talk • contribs) 2012-06-12T05:14:05
 * I agree with the above trivia being removed from the article; outside of blogs, forums and the student newspaper thebulldogbark.net I could not find any reliable sources mentioning this website crash. -84user (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Total garbage
This should not be mistakenly be listed as a webcomic, because it simply isn't. It's rather a pseudo-interactive fiction game, and a really shitty one to boot (the story I read for like half an hour was the current one). not making the slightest sense nor being funny whatsoever. avoid it like the fucking plague! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.120.197  (talk) 21:18, 27 June 2012‎

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man. Specs112  t   c  22:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Popularity

 * I believe that Homestuck should now be honored with it's own separate article because it has currently broken the record for the longest webcomic along with one of the largest fandoms of any webcomic and it doesn't show any signs of stopping. So ask yourself, what is the longest and one of the most popular webcomics doing here as a one paragraph long section of another article?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.184.48.209 (talk) 01:36, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:ILIKEIT, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, etc. There is currently no evidence that this should even have an article at this point.--Crossmr (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * While Homestuck COULD have its own article, considering the number of characters, plot elements, musical albums, impacts on popular culture, and readers, there is less than two paragraphs on it in this page. Maybe we can expand this page first? Mizusajt (talk) 19:42, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Which also means you're going to need to find more reliable sources with information on Homestuck in order to expand it here. So, news sources and the like (tech news sources like The Escapist and Gizmodo count too). Silver  seren C 03:58, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Number of Homestuck protagonists
Until very recently the Homestuck plot summary said it was about four kids. I changed it to say two groups of four kids, to reflect the introduction of the Alpha kids in Act 6. The next editor then changed that to a group of four and a group of twelve, which emphasizes the troll characters over the main protagonists in my opinion.

I would include all three groups, but then there's the issue of a second group of trolls (fourth group of protagonists) which has been partially introduced, and a fifth group of protagonists whose status is currently uncertain.

I'm going to leave the article as is for now, on the perhaps flimsy justification that Act 6 is in progress and it might be best to wait until there is firmer information regarding recent plot developments, due to the serial nature of the work.

Thoughts? Specs112  t   c  20:24, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * John & co. are still the main characters. I think it was best when it just focused on them.  If we mention all of the characters who are in some way their allies the sentence is going to get unmanageably large fast.  Wehpudicabok (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, I changed it to "teens" because they are aging over the course of the story; as of Act 6 Intermission 2, John is 14. Wehpudicabok (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Good idea. Actually, they were teens to start with, since the story began on John's 13th birthday. Although, this could cause confusion. Many fans use "kids" and "teens" even though they're the same age now. "Beta" and "alpha" avoids that.
 * But overall I agree, putting more than just the beta kids in the article overloads it with stuff that a casual reader won't get. Specs112   t   c  14:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Apparently this exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistles_%28graphic_novel%29 I'm not terribly wiki savvy (perhaps evidenced by the fact that there will probably be a problem with how I'm formatting this), but it doesn't seem like it warrants its own page, but since Hussie himself has no page, I can't really think of where the information would be dumped. Media has to be the weirdest thing to encyclopedize. 50.47.125.50 (talk) 12:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)