Talk:M (1931 film)

References to use

 * Please add to the list references that can be used for the film article.



Nazis and Murderer(s)
I hope my edit, which has gotten a bit bigger than just the correction of the translation of the title "Mörder unter uns" that I originally had planned, is okay like that or can be kept with minor editing. If "the community" shouldn't like it at all, it would be nice to at least keep in the info that "Mörder" can be considered singular as well as plural, to know which is needed to understand why the Nazi party didn't like the original title. Thanks :~) Edwing (talk) 03:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Remakes
IMDb does mention the 1951 remake of this movie but there is nothing about a 1956 remake. Does anyone have a source for this information? (unsigned)


 * Haven't found it yet. Was in maybe only released in Germany or perhaps in a language other than German or English? Ellsworth 23:01, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

The description of the 1951 remake in this article is redundant with the actual article on the remake. Considering the length of the article, perhaps a merge would be appropriate? (unsigned)

Move back to "(movie)"
I moved the page back to "(1931 movie)" (rather than "1931 film") because that's what we decided on a long time ago and have been practising ever since. Also, all links to this article are to the "movie" version.  23:02, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Fritz Haarmann; SA
Does anyone have anything citable on the degree of connection to the story of the real-world child-murderer (well, youth-murderer) Fritz Haarmann? Or to the SA men who, around that time, were hunted down by Communists, turned over to the government, and given slap-on-the-wrist sentences? I'd like to get both into the article, but have nothing citable. ~- Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's some good material in this PDF, but it appears to be a student paper. I'd have given it an "A", but that doesn't make it citable. - Jmabel | Talk 19:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Peter Kurten
This somewhat more citable source suggests a connection to child-murderer Peter Kurten, of whom I had not previously been aware. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Knife Used
it says in your link that beckert strangles children but in the movie he uses a knife —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigone2 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Kangaroo Court
I'd also like to add more (but lack citable sources) on the kangaroo court of criminal "experts in law" and, in particular their refusal to countenance an insanity plea, in particular that his insanity makes him all the worse in their view. Also, the subtheme of how his blatant crimes make it hard for them to get on with their day-to-day crimes. There is clearly a lot of social comment here, but it would be personal view for me to extrapolate it (especially since I haven't seen the film in about 20 years). Does someone have some citable sources on any of this? This is a much more interesting and important film than our article currently conveys. - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Film noir
I'd disagree that this film is film noir. In my opinion, it's German Expressionism. I thought the first film noir was supposed to be The Maltese Falcon, which wasn't released until 1941.Ashfan83 16:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But isn't film noir based heavily on the techniques of the German experessionists? So in film noir you'd find elements from German experssionism. Although to say that M is just German expressionism or just film noir is largly incorrect. Also, so say that The Maltese Falcon was the first film noir is probally taking liberties with the nature of genre. There is often no concrete starting point or finishing point for a genre and very often the first film hailed as a new genre by critics is often not the true first film in the new genre. There are prototypes which preceeded it and i believe M can be described in that way. Ex con87 (talk) 10:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Questionable link
Would someone with higher-speed access than I please look into the "watch the film" link? What exactly is it? In particular, have they colorized (I'm guessing from the static page that they have, in which case we should indicate that it is an altered version of the film). Do you have to watch through ads to see it? Etc. Not sure if it is an appropriate link or not. - Jmabel | Talk 03:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Pedophile theme?
I saw this a while ago... but, I don't really think so? Why is this here (does anyone know?) gren グレン 17:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? It is a film about a man who is obsessed with little girls, approaches them in a more or less erotic way (the specifics of any acts are off-camer, but his attraction is clearly sexual), and then murders them. How would that not be a pedophile theme? - Jmabel | Talk 02:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you carefully read the text of the placards you will find he did not only kill girls but boys, too. There is no information about a sexual context. Beckert gets his "fulfilment" in killing these children. --Colag (talk) 09:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You are both, to some extent, correct. Yes, it is clear from the film that he kills children of both sexes.  However, in the most recent and complete English translation (the new Criterion edition), there is explicit reference to his "pathological sexuality" by the handwriting analyst, and more oblique but still unmistakable references to the sexual aspect of the crimes during the restaurant scene where one gentleman falsely accuses the other of being the child-killer because the accused was (supposedly) lecherously eyeing a young girl in their apartment building.  Earlier English translations of the film prudishly leave these exchanges untranslated, just as they do any references to anything resembling Socialism (the many references to communal responsibility), so if you're working with an older edition of the film, you may not be getting the whole picture.  --Laughingrat, 17 February 2009, 9:36 (EST)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.74.47 (talk)
 * ...so if you're working with an older edition of the film, you may not be getting the whole picture. Hey, that's a nice pun! :öD Edwing (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

origin
the director says it was not based on the real-life case, why does the article still feel it can make that claim? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.43.122.217 (talk) 22:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Image
We can't have a fair-use image on a page if there's a free image available. We need to have free images as much as possible. &mdash; Chowbok  ☠  19:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it not WP:Film policy to put a film poster in the infobox instead of a screenshot? Andrzejbanas 19:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's assuming both are fair-use, which is usually the case. M, however, is a public domain film, so a screenshot is public domain as well. WP:FUC states that we can never use a fair-use image if a free image exists that we can use instead... and being an official policy, it trumps WP:Film, which are just project guidelines.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  20:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

A poster provides information a screenshot cannot, per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Archive 13. Also, the commons image doesn't state the source beyond "film". Unique transfers may be copyrighted. Doctor Sunshine  talk  03:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Per the discussion"? One person said that he would prefer posters, and you agreed. That hardly constitutes policy. Every image provides information that another image does not; if it didn't, it would be the same picture. Just saying the image is different isn't an argument that we should keep it. What unique, encyclopedic information does this poster contain?
 * As for your statement that a "unique transfer may be copyrighted"... I've never heard that. Do you have a source?&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  04:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said, the poster identifies the film and illustrates an example of how it was originally marketed. The poster's much more likely to be in the public domain, after 76 years or so, than the image you've uploaded with nary a scratch or speck on it. However, I was unable to determine whether the company still exists, let alone copyright status. I believe the ill is on you to prove that your image is public domain but to start you can check the back of any DVD. For example, the Criterion M states it's under "exclusive license from Atlantic-Film S.A." and copyrighted to the same and Criterion. Also see derivative work. Where exactly did you find the image? Doctor Sunshine   talk  23:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Plot problems
Changed this:

The judges are at such a height (2nd and 4th are the tallest) where they make the letter 'M.' This picture suggests, especially after Beckert's sincere oration, that society, not Beckert, is the Murder that is referenced in the title.

The first sentence is inaccurate (just watched the movie; the judges' heads do not form an M, but a triangle) and the second seems to contain original research. Furthermore, I added the real ending of the movie, which is the actual message that Lang meant to convey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zarathustra327 (talk • contribs)

Just watched it again on Ovation channel. The last two lines Frau Beckman says are that we must watch our children more closely. "We all must." Not that (only) parents should watch their children more closely as the article states. Lmonteros (talk) 06:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As noted above in the section about the pedophilia theme in the film, there are different translations of the movie which censor, through refusal to translate, sections which were deemed socially unacceptable. In America, the new Criterion edition seems to be the most fully and accurately translated edition to date. Earlier translated editions on film and VHS not only refused to translate the explicit references to the sexual aspect of the crimes, but also refused to translate anything that seemed "Socialist," that is, any references to all of society having a role in watching children. This comes up not only at the very end, but during the police conference as well. At least one of these versions was translated during the Cold War, which gives us a context for the censorship. --Laughingrat, 9:43, 17 February 2009 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.74.47 (talk)

My brain! My poor, poor brain!
At some point last year, I encountered "M". I can't figure out where, but I think it may have been MST3K, because that's where I know most old movies from. Does anyone know if M was covered on MST3K? That's all I need to know to figure out where I saw this. Crazyboy899 (talk) 19:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I very much doubt it could have been MST3K - they only made fun of really bad films that deserved it, and M hardly falls under that category.--131.111.213.41 (talk) 21:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Schränker
Cast It is not Herr Schränker but Der Schränker as this is not a name but the criminal "profession" of this man. His actual name is not given. Schränker is derived from the German word Schrank (cupboard, closet, safe) here used in the meaning of strongbox / safe. So Der Schränker is a person who uses to break up safes. The word is not used any more today. --Colag (talk) 09:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Georg John
Your implicit suggestion that maybe somebody should do an article on him (instead of red linking the name) makes sense. According to IMDB, he was in 131 movies. Internet Movie Data Base, Georg John. I know nothing about him and this is beyond my expertise. However, he might be a good subjects for an article. 7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 18:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC) Stan


 * I don't know anything about Georg John either. My point was that with an actor from that long ago, if no one's written an aricle about them so far, it's unlikely that someone's going to write one spontaneously anytime soon, so it's better to leave them unlinked unless there are plans to make an article in the immediate future.  With more contemporary actors (or other film professionals) it's a somewhat different story, as it's a bit more likely that an article will be made about them, so leaving them redlinked makes some sense. But the story of how a film can change the way people view it Ed Fitzgerald t / c 18:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently it's been take care of. Happy editing  7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 19:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

You should give people the chance to create such an article before removing the red link (within 8 minutes!). However, Thanks for your help at the Georg John article. HerkusMonte (talk) 20:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No, actually, you should create the article first, and then change the links, that's more sensible and avoids the redlink reversion problem altogethr. The timing of my reversion is irrelevant, I just happened to be editing when the change came in, and would have reverted a redlink if I saw it 3 minutes or 3 hours after the edit was made. You're very welcome for the help on the article - I may have a couple of things to add still.Ed Fitzgerald t / c 21:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Stanley Kauffman review
Try here. Stanley Kauffman, "M" Criterion collection, review, etc. 7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 15:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Stan


 * The text of the review is not there, just a mention that it is included with the DVD. Believe me, I looked and looked for it on that site before I removed the link. Abato piscorum (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, on that site there is reference to an interview of Kaufman with Fritz Lang, which is on the DVD. I was hoping, as you were, that we could use it some way.  Happy editing.  7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC) Stan


 * I've written to Criterion, who says the essays are offline because of technical problems, but that they hope to have them back online at some future time. In the meantime, you can find them using the Wayback Machine. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 18:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

On the Use of Lietmotifs
This article contains a couple comments on the film's "pioneering" use of lietmotifs. Though earlier (silent) Lang films like Die Nibelungen (1924) and Metropolis (film) (1927) (both scored by Gottfried Huppertz) use lietmotifs throughout. It seems some qualification is needed as to why the use of a lietmotif in this film is historically or stylistically significant. --Mr. Glickums (talk) 15:49, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur, in part, and just edited the article to reflect more accurately Lang's earlier use of leitmotif. "M," however, does show Lang perfecting the use of leitmotif in a way that also directly bears on the plot, so I agree with the earlier authors that mention of it is acceptable.  However, I did eliminate mention of a "film score," since "M," in fact, has no score.  The music in "M" is source or diegetic sound, all created by events or people on the screen.  There is no score, as with the silent films or later sound films. --Laughingrat, 9:21, 17 February 2009 (EST)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.74.47 (talk)

Berlin and other title
I don't recall it ever being fully established that the film takes place in Berlin, ie, it's never outright stated that it took place there. The German article on the film agrees, although it points out that the dialect spoken and maps seen in the police station suggest that it was indeed Berlin. Shouldn't this article mention that as well?

Also, on an unrelated note, I took a class a while back about German film and we watched this one. It was mentioned in the class that the film was originally titled as "The Murderers are among us" (Die Mörder sind unter uns)- this article alludes to this by mentioning that an unrelated film was released in 1946 with that title- and that this a veiled jab at the rise of Nazism. IMDB (not a reliable source) claims that it was changed not because of fear of Nazi reprisal, rather, because Lang thought just the short but sweet "M" was more interesting. Shouldn't there also be mentioning of the renaming at the very least, if not the bits about the Nazis or Lang's opinion? --DarthBinky (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If I remember correctly, the documentary "Fritz Lang: Circle of Destiny" contains an interview with Lang where he discusses the original name for the film ("The Murderers among us") and subsequent Nazi investigation and name-change. Anyone have access to the DVD or similar resources to check this out?  --Laughingrat, 9:24, 17 February 2009 (EST)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.30.74.47 (talk)


 * All the cars have Berlin license plates. The various maps shown are labeled as Berlin. The cast speaks a variety of German dialects that's found in this composition in Berlin only. Berlin locations are referenced throughout. The handcranked organ shown in several scenes was/is a Berlin staple. Also, an ad for the "BZ" (Berliner Zeitung) can be seen, and at one point, a character speaks of the four and a half million people terrorized by the murder. Berlin was and still is the only German city with a population of several million. --Kar98 (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The matter is settled. Only in Berlin, the police station (located at the Alexanderplatz) is referred to as "the Alex".--93.135.49.244 (talk) 23:35, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Essay
The majority of this article reads like someone's personal essay on the film. There are no sources and as a result it reads like a massive pile of original research. 70.119.246.18 (talk) 03:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced material removed
I have removed the following material from the article because it is entirely unsourced and original research. Please do not readd any of the material without citing a reliable source. The material is enclosed within the following collapsed box: kollision (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Kill
how many people does beckert kill ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigone2 (talk • contribs) 13:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The wanted poster says the killer of Elsie is "believed to be the same that has already killed 8 children". The only victim that we see is Elsie; the two that he approaches on the night he is captured get away. It's not just girls, a boy and his sister are named as the most recent victims. Since we don't see the actual legal trial, we don't know just what evidence the police had to connect all of them and Beckert does not give a number. However, he MUST be responsable for at least one of the others, since his cigarettes were found at at least one other location.CFLeon (talk) 23:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Jewish
Was this work done in yiddish by an all-Jewish ensemble? Was it religious? The answer to both is no. Why then is the adjective Jewish being applied to this film? Redactorman (talk) 14:11, 8 May 2014 (UTC) redactorman
 * Vandalism. Mezigue (talk) 14:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

2013 Re-release
I added a note to the article about the 2013 theatrical re-release by Kino Lorber. This DCP version begins with a fair bit of text giving the history of different versions of the film and explains the sources from which the restoration was made. It casts doubt on whether there was ever a 117-minute version (the length traditionally claimed by sources of the original release in 1931). The text is all in German (with English subtitles); I can't find it reproduced online searching in English. Mathew5000 (talk) 17:50, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I found some good information from Torsten Kaiser of TLEFilms here on the Home Theater Forum boards. Whether this is adequately reliable for Wikipedia, I will leave to others to decide. For example, Kaiser says, "the film is now also more complete than on any other previous presentation since (its ban in) 1934. Much of the film's missing footage that was missing in various (mostly interrupted) sequences was found in a now preserved 35mm duplicate negative film element located in France. Most shots of M are now complete or almost complete. Both Criterion and Eureka (who bought the 2003 Criterion master, the same master was color re-timed in early 2010) are based on previous stages (in other words are not as complete)." Mathew5000 (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Public domain?
Isn't this movie in the public domain? I remember reading that somewhere. --RThompson82 (talk) 07:08, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The answer appears to be "Possibly". Some sources list it as public domain, some say that it is definitely not, ouw own List of films in the public domain does not list it, some sources say that some versions of it might be PD. I have not found a definitive answer. BMK (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * All info here about relating to status in US public domain. From what I've found, the film had a copyright claim made for it in 1931, and it was published in 1934. Kind of dubious, but assume it is fine since lots of things work like that and we just might not know. So we look to its renewal 28 years from claim creation (1931). This will take us to 1959. And to be generous let's go to 1963. When looking into those years I didn't find its renewal. It's original claim number was L3800.
 * Now that would mean it is public domain in the United States. But I found that the Uruguay Round Agreements Act of 1994 restored copyright for foreign works that were not public domain in their country of origin. Since M is from Germany, and it enters their public domain 70 years after the death of Fritz Lang, who died in 1976, so it won't be public domain there until 2047. Which is crazy since that is 116 years after it was made.
 * So anyway, it will enter the United States public domain again in 2027, which is 95 years after copyright notice. MonkeyBBGB (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

External links modified
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Criterion version
The article says:

"The film was restored in 2000 by the Netherlands Film Museum in collaboration with the Federal Film Archive, the Cinemateque Suisse, Kirsch Media and ZDF/ARTE., with Janus Films releasing the 109-minute version as part of its Criterion Collection using prints from the same period from the Cinemateque Suisse and the Netherlands Film Museum."

Criterion released the film on Laserdisc well before 2000, and their initial DVD release was in 1998. It may just be me, but the way I read the current text makes it sound like the Criterion edition (which edition, indeed, as there have been three to date) was a circa 2000 restoration, which is of course impossible. Perhaps this section should be a little clearer as to which print Criterion used for its initial Laserdisc and DVD releases? GJ (talk) 02:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

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Untitled
Someone should fix or delete this sentence fragment: "Empire Magazine 's 100 Best Films of World Cinema in 2010." Also, its associated reference 45 is a dead link. RichardCameronHill (talk) 14:25, 20 March 2020 (UTC)