Talk:M (New York City Subway service)

Description
Do we really need that section? I don't think it's important to go into that detail about the subway service. I mean, the crunch of the service details are already in the summary and subway service pattern. The M is the only article that has this section.The Legendary Ranger 10:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Alleged confusion
An editor has tried several times to insert:


 * When it runs its full length, the M is the only line in the entire system that leaves and re-enters the same borough (Brooklyn). During rush hours, this is sometimes a source of confusion for riders boarding in Manhattan seeking a "Brooklyn-bound" M train.

The first sentence is obvious. I don't know how interesting or relevant it is, but it is clearly true. But the second sentence is an opinion, and therefore needs to be backed up with reliable sources. It isn't sufficient that an editor thinks it is true or has experienced it himself. Without verification, it is considered original research.

For what it's worth, the statement seems dubious. The M is almost exclusively a commuter train. And a commuters—people who ride the same route every day—will generally know where they are going, practically in their sleep.

But in any case, I have no obligation to disprove the statement. The burden of proof is on the editor who wishes to add it. Please find a reliable source (something you can cite with a footnote, such as a newspaper article). Otherwise, however true you may believe it to be, it has no place in Wikipedia. Marc Shepherd (talk) 21:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if it is confusing to riders. However, it is still a fact that at that time, the M runs through the same borough twice in one trip, so I added that fact in, but no the opinion about riders being confused about this. I mean, after September 11, the J also ran through the same borough twice replacing the R in Brooklyn. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I can live with that fact written in without the "opinion", because it what makes the M unique. While daily riders of the M will not be confused by the M going to Brooklyn twice, there are people who do not ride the M normally and then have to take the M for whatever reason to Brooklyn. I have seen several cases where people looking for some stop on the M in Brooklyn and then look horrified and get off when they figure out that their train is running in the opposite direction (though the train is in Brooklyn). Here's a conversation I had with an individual at Fulton Street...


 * Dude: Is this the M to Brooklyn?
 * Me: Yeah. What stop are you looking for?
 * Dude: Flushing Ave.
 * Me: Go to the opposite platform. Walk down to the A/C platform, walk down the platform and find the stairs that leads back up to the Queens bound M side. That M train will go to your stop first [I say Queens side because no train on this platform heads to Queens.]


 * If I just said yeah in response to his original question, he would have headed to Brooklyn and then wondered where is Flushing Ave. I've had similar conversations with other customers.


 * But this stuff is unsourceable (if that's a word) so I'll leave the "opinion" out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk • contribs) 15:54, 24 December 2007
 * Removed statement, (now about queens) L train does the same thing. 67.247.23.150 (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I am going to tag the verifiably false statement with citation needed. I hereby challenge the veracity of it, and will remove it in 2 days if no citation is given. 71.190.44.152 (talk) 23:15, 15 July 2011 (UTC) (Same person as above)

Infobox
Can someone please update the NYCS service infobox for the M to reflect the change to the orange bullet, and, preferably, update the map?

The bullet to be used is here: 

Thanks!Avman89 (talk) 05:34, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The map is still of the Lower Manhattan routing. How do we update that? --69.91.134.161 (talk) 09:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Not exactly sure, but I believe the map might have to be manually edited and updated.--IGeMiNix (talk) 03:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As you may have noticed, I took care of editing the map, as well as maps for the G and Q lines. I also took the liberty of editing templates and information on several non-English versions of this page, to which the map and the orange M bullet have already propagated. R36 (talk) 22:51, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice, although it seems the M page still needs a refresh for the current map to show up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IGeMiNix (talk • contribs) 05:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Revert
Why was this reverted? The M to Broad Street ended already. IGeMiNix (talk) 05:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't understand that either. The service changes do not go into effect until tomorrow, that's true. But the weekend shuttle service is the same before and after the service change and the weekday service is a moot point. If that person thinks waiting one day will change anything, then he has no common sense. Tinlinkin (talk) 06:06, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol yeah well it's sad to see Nassau M go but times are rough. The M logo on the upper right still needs to change to Orange.--IGeMiNix (talk) 06:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The file in question, File:NYCS-bull-trans-M.svg, has been updated. It's going to take some time for the server to refresh the pages to the new image if I understand the mechanics correctly, hopefully not too long. Tinlinkin (talk) 06:51, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Off hour shuttles
Could you guys please stop changing it. The 5, M and R trains operates as shuttles during off hour service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.168.173 (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Railroad Directions
As the M is the only route that actually changes railroad directions...I am going to note that in the infobox in the next edit. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 16:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You guys need to settle this with the IP because he just keeps getting other IPs and changing it.-- iGeM  iN  ix  16:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion over railroad directions in the Eastern Division. Although the track numbers are south leaving Manhattan and north towards Manhattan; operationally they are north leaving Manhattan, and south towards Manhattan. The J and Z's north terminal is Jamaica Center and the south terminal is Broad Street. The M does not technically have a southern terminal because it travels through the Chrystie Street cut. The statement about railroad directions was inserted in June 2010 for someone looking at the Jamaica Line stations. Otherwise, all stations shared by the J and M would have contradicting next north and south stations. With the exception of the M, all other trains in the NYC Subway have only one north terminal and one south terminal. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The South terminal of the M train is Metropolitan avenue. The M never changes railroad directions. A southbound M at Marcy will make Hewes street next, while a southbound J at Marcy will make Essex next. You are correct- the J and M DO have contradicting next stations at every shared stop. There is NO contradiction in direction on the M line. It is entirely southbound in both track and service from Continental to Metropolitan. Like any other line, the M has a north and a south terminal, literally, technically, figuratively, however you wish to call it. The J however has a change. Southbound J trains are running on the Northbound track from Jamaica Center to Chambers. That said, the J is considered southbound for its entire run from Parsons Archer to Broad, as no line changes direction midway through its run. 71.190.36.20 (talk) 17:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I again reverted an attempt to change this, which was substantially better phrased. As the statement being made would reasonably apply to the J/Z trains, I will add said statement there. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, to quote Marc Shepard above on a different topic "But in any case, I have no obligation to disprove the statement. The burden of proof is on the editor who wishes to add it. Please find a reliable source (something you can cite with a footnote, such as a newspaper article). Otherwise, however true you may believe it to be, it has no place in Wikipedia." CITE IT if you claim it is correct. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 00:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It is nice that you follow the rules that Wikipedia uses, you should link your sources before you start vandalizing by changing them without them.-- iGeM  iN  ix  00:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I cannot link a book. I really cannot conceive why this keeps on being reverted. My argument is as follows: 1. It is factually wrong. (See 2010 Tracks of the New York City Subway by Peter Dougherty) 2. It is not cited. See above statement by Marc Shepard. IF YOU CAN CITE IT, DO SO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.158.206 (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * And once again the changes have been reverted. Middle Village - Metropolitan Avenue is the NORTHERN terminal for the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line while Myrtle Avenue is the SOUTHERN terminal. Before the M was rerouted via the Chrystie Street Connection, Metropolitan Avenue was its northern terminal while its soutern terminal was Myrtle Avenue, Chambers Street, or Bay Parkway. Service from Essex Street was in the southbound direction and service to Metropolitan Avenue was in the northbound direction. While Metropolitan Avenue is the new southern terminal for the M due to its new route via Sixth Avenue and Queens Boulevard, this does NOT change the railroad direction of the Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue Lines. Their northern and south terminals and track directions remain the same. As a result, southbound M service operates on the northbound track of those lines and vice versa.


 * Also, the J/Z does not change railroad direction at all. Its northern terminal is Jamaica Center – Parsons/Archer, northern terminal for the BMT Archer Avenue Line, while its southern terminal is Broad Street, the southern terminal for the BMT Nassau Street Line. Queens-bound service may be operating on the former southbound express track in Manhattan, but it stills operates in the north railroad direction. Whoever is running these addresses is messing up railroad direction with geographical direction because geographically, the BMT Jamaica Line runs in the southeast direction from Marcy Avenue to Broadway Junction. I am considering these edits as vandalism, which results in serious consequences for those involved. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Throughout the entire B division, Railroad directions are indicated by a system which can clearly be determined from track number. A train travelling on an ODD numbered track is running RAILROAD SOUTH and one running on an EVEN numbered track is running RAILROAD NORTH, provided that trains are not wrong railing. J trains DO in fact, change direction. A NORTHBOUND J train will be running RAILROAD SOUTH, after it leaves Chambers street heading towards Jamaica Center. Prior to 6/27/10, M trains also changed railroad direction, A NORTHBOUND M train would be running RAILROAD SOUTH after Chambers Street. I Hereby CITE 2010 Tracks of New York City Subway by Peter Dougherty for these points, although one can also see the general rule on http://www.thejoekorner.com/indexfrm.html of northbound vs southbound. ANY TRAIN leaving Chambers Street on the Nassau line is running Southbound, REGARDLESS of track. I will leave the statement for a few more days to give you time to cite something in support, but will remove it if no such citations appear, I am hereby challenging the statement. To quote directly from wikipedia policy: "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation." "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it." Considering these policies, It is clear that my edits are quite solidly in line with wikipedia policy, and the addition of this unverifiable incorrect statement is clearly not in line with wikipedia policy. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 01:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, current wikipedia pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_chaining#BMT and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMT_Myrtle_Avenue_Line both clearly identify proper North and South ends of BMT line M. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 02:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

As I have provided sources directly contradicting the statement, have provided two days to allow someone to find a source, and the statement is both unsourced and verifiably false, I am removing the statement. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 21:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You can't use Wikipedia as a source. That's circular logic, Sorry. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I am not using them as sources- just as points in agreement. My sources for said removal were the JoeKorNer Website and the Dougherty Track Book. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 00:25, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Between the Essex Street and the Metropolitan Avenue, the M operates on the northbound direction due to J/Z train's northern terminal at Jamaica, the Metropolitan Avenue station is the northern terminal on the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line but the Southern terminal for the M service. I have fixed the page again. No edit warring please. 24DeathRow173 (talk) 23:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Jamaica Center and Metropolitan Avenue stations are both Termini in the RAILROAD SOUTH direction. See Tracks of the New York City Subway by Peter Dougherty, or any eastern division signal diagrams. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 00:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Which station is this?
I asked about this on WP:NYPT, but so far nobody has answered; Which station has this M train from 1977? -User:DanTD (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Service pattern from July to September 2017
J4lambert (talk) 00:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)


 * No M service late nights during July or August.Theoallen1 (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Service pattern from September 2017 to May 2018
J4lambert (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)


 * No M service late nights to Broadway Junction.Theoallen1 (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2017 (UTC)


 * This should revert after tonight since it is only a weekend service change (suspension).Theoallen1 (talk) 23:08, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on M (New York City Subway service). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140313123213/http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/part1.htm to http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/ServiceReduction/part1.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130725182925/http://web.mta.info:80/nyct/service/2014_2017MTAFinancialPlan.htm to http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/2014_2017MTAFinancialPlan.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140612005620/http://web.mta.info:80/nyct/service/M_weekends.htm to http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/M_weekends.htm

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Lead image
It looks like the lead image is in dispute. Here are the images being disputed:

epicgenius (talk) 03:36, 28 December 2019 (UTC)